Will Allen knows leaving would be difficult

[stillers4me]

If Will Allen had his way, he would be spending this week in team meetings, on the practice field and watching film through the night, getting ready for a playoff game this weekend or next.

But unfortunately things didn’t go as planned this season, and instead of practicing he is preparing to head off into an offseason of uncertainty for the free agent safety.

“I still feel like I have to get ready for this week,” said Allen. “I am kind of at a loss for words. I think we missed out on a lot of opportunities this year. We had some very strong points but some very low points as well. We have to evaluate and get better this offseason. We need to press hard and come together as a team, so we can face those adverse situations better, and those critical moments in games where we didn’t execute well.”...........

Read more @ http://blog.steelers.com/2013/01/02/allen-knows-leaving-would-be-difficult/

[steelreserve]

BRING THIS GUY BACK. He has been the only - ONLY - player in 10 years who has been able to step in when Troy is injured without the entire defense falling apart. Hopefully we can give him some of Mundy's money too.

[salamander]

BRING THIS GUY BACK. He has been the only - ONLY - player in 10 years who has been able to step in when Troy is injured without the entire defense falling apart. Hopefully we can give him some of Mundy's money too.

I would definitely be all for dumping Mundy and keeping Will Allen.

[Count Steeler]

Keep Allen, dump Mundy and mold Golden. Even consider moving Ike to safety and let Lewis and Allen roam the corners.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Keep Allen, dump Mundy and mold Golden. Even consider moving Ike to safety and let Lewis and Allen roam the corners.

if anyone can coach them into a successful transition, its lake, especially with his experience doing that

[Craic]

BRING THIS GUY BACK. He has been the only - ONLY - player in 10 years who has been able to step in when Troy is injured without the entire defense falling apart. Hopefully we can give him some of Mundy's money too.


http://evaloy.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/shocked-smiley-33326281168.gif

We agree on something!!!!

[tube517]

BRING THIS GUY BACK. He has been the only - ONLY - player in 10 years who has been able to step in when Troy is injured without the entire defense falling apart. Hopefully we can give him some of Mundy's money too.

Yeah, Mundy should be gone and keep Will Allen. He was mainly signed for Special Teams so he would be more valuable to us.

[Seven]

Allen played awesome this season. He's not that old for a defensive back, either. Bring him back. We need a depth safety we can count on if we're keeping Polamalu.

[steelreserve]

http://evaloy.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/shocked-smiley-33326281168.gif

We agree on something!!!!

Hey, if it's not Parker or Wallace or Goodell's stupid rules, I don't think we're all that different. Although those things DO get talked about a lot.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Allen played awesome this season. He's not that old for a defensive back, either. Bring him back. We need a depth safety we can count on if we're keeping Polamalu.

30 is the new 20 if you play defense for the steelers :chuckle:

[Craic]

Hey, if it's not Parker or Wallace or Goodell's stupid rules, I don't think we're all that different. Although those things DO get talked about a lot.

Actually, I think we agree pretty much on Wallace. He is not worth a top contract - and should be paid at the MOST what Brown is being paid. After this year, maybe not even that. The only place we disagree on Wallace, is that I don't think he's out the door halfway through the season. If you are you say things like Mendenhall said or Burress (mod 1) said.

Willie P.? You just hate willies, that's all. :chuckle:

Rules? Well, they're not even Goodell's. They're the leagues, which means the owners, and they all have to be approved by the NFLPA. So it's the NFL's rules. I don't mind rules saying you can't launch helmet to helmet hits on receivers that are not able to protect themselves. Heck - our players learned how to hit legally this year, and after that bad penalty against Clark, we didn't get another penalty all year like that if I remember right. I still saw some VERY nice hits as well. Also noticed our Passes Defended stat went up quite a bit. Gotta wonder if we were always looking for the big hit, rather than just playing football the way it was meant to be played. Thank God ESPNball is gone.


----------------

Oops - don't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry.

[Chidi29]

Allen is not that good. Average player who is nothing more than a band-aid. Not that isn't a terrible thing to have as a backup behind two reckless starters but I won't lose too much sleep if we bring someone else in.

[salamander]

Allen is not that good. Average player who is nothing more than a band-aid. Not that isn't a terrible thing to have as a backup behind two reckless starters but I won't lose too much sleep if we bring someone else in.

Yes but as Steelreserve said, the defense didn't fall apart with Allen filling in which was nice to see.

[Chidi29]

Yes but as Steelreserve said, the defense didn't fall apart with Allen filling in which was nice to see.

"Not imploding" isn't that great of a compliment for a player.

[steelreserve]

"Not imploding" isn't that great of a compliment for a player.

I think it was better than that. He pulled off a pretty difficult job that no one else had been able to do yet. Put it this way - Every year when one of our key playeres gets hurt, whoever steps in does a complete bellyflop and we all argue:

"We need to get rid of that guy and try someone else!"
"No we don't, he's a backup! Backups aren't starters!"
"But we have to do better than that!"
"You're being unrealistic! What do you want from a backup?"

What Allen did? THAT'S what we want from a backup.

[Chidi29]

I'm fine with him being a backup but if he goes somewhere else, I won't lose too much sleep. There's a lot of guys we could bring in that could produce similar results.

[Seven]

Allen is not that good. Average player who is nothing more than a band-aid. Not that isn't a terrible thing to have as a backup behind two reckless starters but I won't lose too much sleep if we bring someone else in.

I have to disagree. I thought he played exceptionally well when called upon. He certainly made Ryan Mundy look like a total scrub in comparison. What did Allen do poorly, in your opinion? I'd like to know so I can try and recognize what you're seeing from here on out whenever I'm watching games from this season for whatever purpose.

[Chidi29]

I have to disagree. I thought he played exceptionally well when called upon. He certainly made Ryan Mundy look like a total scrub in comparison. What did Allen do poorly, in your opinion? I'd like to know so I can try and recognize what you're seeing from here on out whenever I'm watching games from this season for whatever purpose.

I thought he was a hit or miss tackler who was just average in coverage.

[Seven]

I thought he was a hit or miss tackler who was just average in coverage.

I do remember some weak tackling at times, but I tend to think his coverage was pretty excellent. I was actually kind of getting excited about Allen. I was hoping maybe we could do the same thing with him as we've done with Clark - meaning getting the most out of him during the latter portion of his career, since he saw limited action prior to arriving. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate.

[Chidi29]

The problem with him was partially him biting on playaction and not having the ability (like Troy) to recover.

[steelreserve]

Well, in any case, it was a hell of a lot better than Mundy, Tyrone Carter, and whoever the hell else we tried in that role in the past. If there's one backup we ought to keep, that's it.

[Chidi29]

Carter wasn't that bad. I think statistically, we were actually better with Carter in the lineup than with Troy. Might be remembering that wrong though. Obviously Troy was/is the much better player but it was a similar situation as Allen.

Let's also keep in mind that Mundy supplanted Allen for last year and half of this year until he struggled too much and the team made the switch. So Allen was behind a pretty marginal backup safety.

I don't hate Allen. A veteran guy that can come in whenever needed who has special teams value is nice to have. But if we lose him, we'll be fine. Just as this defense was with Tyrone Carter.

[steelerdude15]

I would like to bring him back as a back up. I felt he played well (not great) and was able to help when he was needed. Plus, we could use depth for safety with Ryan and Troy starting, we all know how they play and how it's taken a toll on their bodies.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Tyrone Carter

oh dear god dont ever bring up that name :lol:

[steelreserve]

Carter wasn't that bad. I think statistically, we were actually better with Carter in the lineup than with Troy. Might be remembering that wrong though. Obviously Troy was/is the much better player but it was a similar situation as Allen.

Let's also keep in mind that Mundy supplanted Allen for last year and half of this year until he struggled too much and the team made the switch. So Allen was behind a pretty marginal backup safety.

I don't hate Allen. A veteran guy that can come in whenever needed who has special teams value is nice to have. But if we lose him, we'll be fine. Just as this defense was with Tyrone Carter.

I think your good memories of Tyrone Carter were from when he filled in for Clark - he actually did a great job at that and we didn't miss a beat. When he filled in for Troy, it was downright horrible. Same as Mundy, I'd say.

I completely get what you're saying about Allen - ability-wise, he's not much different from Mundy or Carter; he's just a player. However, he's the only one of those three very average players who "got it" when Troy was gone. I don't even know what "it" is, but he made it work.

Since we can probably count on Troy missing at least 3-4 games in a given year, I think it's worth taking this precaution so that doesn't turn into a 1-3 record, which is what used to happen. Especially since he and Mundy cost roughly the same amount of money.

[Chidi29]

I don't know how you're quantifying "it" and what that really is supposed to mean. I just base it off what I have seen when I watch him, what I have been able to quantify. And he's a marginal player that can be replaced. If Allen leaves and we go out and get a similar low-priced veteran backup safety, you're likely to get similar results.

[steelreserve]

I'll be the first to admit I can't quantify "it." Honestly, it probably doesn't even have a lot to do with Allen's actual play. Just the way the defense carries itself when he's on the field compared to when it was Mundy or Carter.

With Mundy or Carter, that meant timid, soft, and completely lacking confidence - punctuated by some incredible fuck-up about once per quarter. It's anyone's guess whether the fuck-ups were because they were soft and timid, or whether they were soft and timid because they were afraid of fucking up, but that's the way it went down. With Allen in there, the defense for the most part acted like it normally does.

Yes, I understand that it wasn't usually Allen making the plays himself. But for some reason they got made. It's the only time I haven't seen that unit completely roll over on its belly when Troy is out, so I'm not inclined to mess with it.

[Chidi29]

If Allen isn't making the plays, and the reason for the improved defense is for other reasons, then losing Allen isn't a big deal. Keeping Allen because you don't want to mess with the "mojo" is borderline superstitious.

[Count Steeler]

Remember to factor in the emergence of Allen with the return of Harrison. I believe it was in the same game or off 1 game where Mundy was replaced with Allen and the return of Harrison.

Hard to measure the impact of Allen when everyone else on defense also seemed to start playing around the same time. Might be the return of Harrison, might be that LeBeau got the attention of everyone (Taylor), might be that Lake cracked the whip. All I know is that something happened after our 5th game.

[steelreserve]

Borderline superstitious, yes. But there's also such a thing as team chemistry, knowing your role, knowing where each other are on the field, things like that. If anything, that's what it has to do with.

I completely agree with you that Allen is just an average player. I don't agree that we can expect similar results from just plugging in another average player. We've tried that before, and the other average players all sucked ass at it. For whatever reason, we seem to be getting more out of him than what his talent level would indicate. I don't want to get into a drawn-out argument, because I really don't have anything left to say; either it makes sense or it doesn't. :noidea:

[Chidi29]

I don't think many on here would call Carter or Mundy average. Most would consider them below that bar. Allen may be a tick better than them but it doesn't mean he's irreplaceable.

[Craic]

I don't know how you're quantifying "it" and what that really is supposed to mean. I just base it off what I have seen when I watch him, what I have been able to quantify. And he's a marginal player that can be replaced. If Allen leaves and we go out and get a similar low-priced veteran backup safety, you're likely to get similar results.

Chidi - I actually agree with Steelreserve here (Oh Mary Mother of God, did I just say that????)

I too, can't quantify "it". But I think I can give the qualifications for "it" in this case.

1. Unlike Carter and Mundy, Allen seems to instill enough confidence in the other DB's that they don't have to overplay their positions and try to do too much.

2. Will Allen had 34 tackles/assists and a forced fumble, not to mention 3 passes defended, and that was when teams were locked down against us - so much fewer opportunities to make plays. In relations to him, Mundy had 39 tackles/assists, and 2 passes defended. In 2009, the year Troy went out, Tyrone Carter payed that year for troy, if I remember right. In a total of 15 games or so, he had 61 combined tackles, a scak, a forced fumble, 4 passes defended and 4 stuffs. Those aren't bad numbers, but I wouldn't say Allen has the worst stats of the three, because he had the least opportunity of the three - and made the most of it.

3. What the stats don't show, is that passing yards came down significantly once he came in and started playing. We do have to keep in mind that LeBeau changed the way he ran the defense so Carter can't be included here, but between Allen and Mundy, Allen was a lot more effective in making the defensive whole greater than the sum of it's parts.

I think that last phrase is the biggest issue that Steelreserve and I see. Allen "fits" better than Mundy. For some reason, what he contributes and the way he contributes helps this team more than Mundy, because again, he makes the team better than the sum of it's parts. IMO.

[Chidi29]

Chidi - I actually agree with Steelreserve here (Oh Mary Mother of God, did I just say that????)

I too, can't quantify "it". But I think I can give the qualifications for "it" in this case.

1. Unlike Carter and Mundy, Allen seems to instill enough confidence in the other DB's that they don't have to overplay their positions and try to do too much.

2. Will Allen had 34 tackles/assists and a forced fumble, not to mention 3 passes defended, and that was when teams were locked down against us - so much fewer opportunities to make plays. In relations to him, Mundy had 39 tackles/assists, and 2 passes defended. In 2009, the year Troy went out, Tyrone Carter payed that year for troy, if I remember right. In a total of 15 games or so, he had 61 combined tackles, a scak, a forced fumble, 4 passes defended and 4 stuffs. Those aren't bad numbers, but I wouldn't say Allen has the worst stats of the three, because he had the least opportunity of the three - and made the most of it.

3. What the stats don't show, is that passing yards came down significantly once he came in and started playing. We do have to keep in mind that LeBeau changed the way he ran the defense so Carter can't be included here, but between Allen and Mundy, Allen was a lot more effective in making the defensive whole greater than the sum of it's parts.

I think that last phrase is the biggest issue that Steelreserve and I see. Allen "fits" better than Mundy. For some reason, what he contributes and the way he contributes helps this team more than Mundy, because again, he makes the team better than the sum of it's parts. IMO.

To be fair, we are looking at a pretty small sample size for Mundy. Just three games, at the height when the defense played its worst (and that can't be all put on Mundy - I highly doubt Allen's presence alone would have been able to turn that around). And looking at points allowed, with Mundy started, we allowed 19.3. With Allen, 17.4. Yes, Allen does have better numbers but more games too which helps level out his numbers.

Tackles aren't exactly a strong indicator of how well a player is playing. Otherwise, Jerrell Freeman would be considered the best linebacker in the AFC.

The thought that Allen played less and had less chances to make plays is statistically inaccurate. Football Outsiders posted snap count numbers for the entire year across the league.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts2012

Looking at defensive snaps, Allen had a 422-284 advantage (makes sense because he started more games). And overall, Allen had more snaps than Mundy (682-591). So if you want to go off the stats you posted, Mundy did more with less snaps.

Still, I don't think it tells us who the better player is.

This is not a "Mundy vs Allen" debate in my mind (and hopefully no one else's either because that's not what I'm arguing). I agree Allen played a bit better than Mundy though it would have been interesting to see what Mundy would have done when the defense was playing much better. I'm just saying that if we lose Will Allen in FA and bring in another veteran, or even stay with Mundy (or Golden), it's not the end of the world for this team. Allen is nothing special and what I saw on tape confirms that for me. He misses too many tackles, is too easily sucked up by playaction, and average at best in pass defense.

[Craic]

To be fair, we are looking at a pretty small sample size for Mundy. Just three games, at the height when the defense played its worst (and that can't be all put on Mundy - I highly doubt Allen's presence alone would have been able to turn that around). And looking at points allowed, with Mundy started, we allowed 19.3. With Allen, 17.4. Yes, Allen does have better numbers but more games too which helps level out his numbers.

Tackles aren't exactly a strong indicator of how well a player is playing. Otherwise, Jerrell Freeman would be considered the best linebacker in the AFC.

The thought that Allen played less and had less chances to make plays is statistically inaccurate. Football Outsiders posted snap count numbers for the entire year across the league.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts2012

Looking at defensive snaps, Allen had a 422-284 advantage (makes sense because he started more games). And overall, Allen had more snaps than Mundy (682-591). So if you want to go off the stats you posted, Mundy did more with less snaps.

Still, I don't think it tells us who the better player is.

This is not a "Mundy vs Allen" debate in my mind (and hopefully no one else's either because that's not what I'm arguing). I agree Allen played a bit better than Mundy though it would have been interesting to see what Mundy would have done when the defense was playing much better. I'm just saying that if we lose Will Allen in FA and bring in another veteran, or even stay with Mundy (or Golden), it's not the end of the world for this team. Allen is nothing special and what I saw on tape confirms that for me. He misses too many tackles, is too easily sucked up by playaction, and average at best in pass defense.

Chidi - thanks for the link to that site. I've missed it somehow and it's a great site it looks like. I'm surprised by the difference in snaps taken, I thought for sure Allen would have had either less, or about the same. I agree that he isn't the best thing out there, or that he's even a pretty good SS. He is however, someone that seems to fit better than the others, and I think that's the biggest issue. Talent isn't always the final arbiter in team sports. I wouldn't want Ed Reed on this team, because his talent with Troy P. would mean that one of them would be wasting their talents, since both of them gamble. I think the same thing is true here, though on a MUCH lesser scale.

It'd be nice to come away from the draft with a good SS. I just don't think it's a need in comparison with a couple other positions. I'd be comfortable going into next year with Allen as our starter. I can't say that about Mundy.

[Chidi29]

Yeah, it's pretty nice. FO just posted that the other day so it's understandable to miss it. I just happened to catch it as a link on a Rotoworld blurb.

I dunno, talent is usually going to trump anything else. And with Reed, at least you can logically explain why it wouldn't fit. With Allen, we're just shrugging our shoulders without much of a reason.