Antonio Brown Vs. Santonio Holmes

[SteelerEmpire]

A Comparison-Contrast. What do you guys think so far ? Two very similar "style" football players. Is Brown better or is the jury still out on him ? Holmes was a weed-head when he racked up his impressive stats with the Steelers; but that fact also ended his career with the team. Anyway:

Holmes (1st 3 yrs with Steelers):

Games: 44
Rec: 156
Yds: 2587
Avg Yds/C: 16.6
Avg Yds/G: 59.57
Lng: 83
TD: 15
Fum. Lost: 3

LINK: http://www.nfl.com/player/santonioholmes/2506885/profile

Brown (1st 3 yrs with Steelers-2 games left in 2012 reg. season of this date):

Games: 36
Rec: 144
Yds: 1943
Avg Yds/C: 13.5
Avg Yds/G: 53.97
Lng: 79
TD: 5
Fum. Lost: 2

LINK: http://www.nfl.com/player/antoniobrown/2508061/profile


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ITT6_Vp3gXk/TmkvE16uwpI/AAAAAAAAAFM/8qggHYbr_z4/s1600/santonio-holmes.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0819/play_g_abrownts_576.jpg

[86WARD]

Don't forget one Super Bowl MVP in there too.

I think it's too early to say. If you go strictly on numbers, it's Holmes. When was Holmes busted for weed? Was it within those first three seasons? I can't remember.

[st33lersguy]

A Comparison-Contrast. What do you guys think so far ? Two very similar "style" football players. Is Brown better or is the jury still out on him ? Holmes was a weed-head when he racked up his impressive stats with the Steelers; but that fact also ended his career with the team. Anyway:

Holmes (1st 3 yrs with Steelers):

Games: 44
Rec: 156
Yds: 2587
Avg Yds/C: 16.6
Avg Yds/G: 59.57
Lng: 83
TD: 15
Fum. Lost: 3

LINK: http://www.nfl.com/player/santonioholmes/2506885/profile

Brown (1st 3 yrs with Steelers-2 games left in 2012 reg. season of this date):

Games: 36
Rec: 144
Yds: 1943
Avg Yds/C: 13.5
Avg Yds/G: 53.97
Lng: 79
TD: 5
Fum. Lost: 2

LINK: http://www.nfl.com/player/antoniobrown/2508061/profile



Those numbers are a little skewed, unlike Holmes, Brown barely received any playing time at WR his first year, and I don't remember any impact from him in the passing game before 3rd and 19 in the divisional game against the Ratbirds

[Dwinsgames]

Those numbers are a little skewed, unlike Holmes, Brown barely received any playing time at WR his first year, and I don't remember any impact from him in the passing game before 3rd and 19 in the divisional game against the Ratbirds


if memory serves he was active in only a few games as a rookie , and to be even more fair he was a 6th round pick and not expected to be a big contributor early on whereas Holmes was a 1st rounder and expected to play a role

[zulater]

Holmes was very clutch in 2008. In 2009 not so much. It's what happens when players become consumed with themselves.

I think our young money crew is little bit guilty of the same thing. Hopefully some real life lessons have been learned. Some humilty will set in. And they can resume what they started prior to this year's foibles.

So even though he wasn't mentioned I'll include Emanuel Sanders in the conversation. Going foward I think he and Antonio will fully redeem themselves.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Holmes was very clutch in 2008. In 2009 not so much. It's what happens when players become consumed with themselves.



how are you calculating clutchness? holmes didnt play that well in 2008 until the post season. 2009 was his best season by far. he displayed everything you expect from a #1 (even though hines was just as productive). Excellent hands, excellent body control, excellent route running.

Then the jets happened.

[Steelreal]

Holmes was by FAR more Clutch. He was a Raven Killer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVPYpxzIgOQ

Tone Brown is a good up and coming Receiver but he is not the big game player that Tone was. I was sad to see him go and I bet Ben was too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmkGKq_7waA

[Steelreal]

AB is faster/quicker and has more upside but Tone found a way to make a play at the most opportunistic momments. And did you see Ben slingin it? STUD!!!!

[Psycho Ward 86]

yeah this is an awkwardly lopsided thread. holmes was a mega-gamer for us. Not just against the ravens, but against divisional rivals and post season opponents. Goes even farther back than 2008 (how can we forget some of the clutch stuff he did his rookie year, that game against the bengals where holmes ran that long TD pass down in overtime to win it for us?).

Then his 1st year with the jets he was just a damn doom bringer in the 4th quarter. He was the lone reason for some of those comeback wins against the browns and texans, just to name a few. And of course, that insane catch in the corner of the endzone against the patriots, who looked unstoppable. And he gave us life when we looked dead in every single post season game. Thats just a given.

Brown hasnt really displayed anything on holmes level of clutch. One helmet catch in the AFCCG, and a little dinky catch for a 1st down on 3rd and manageable against the jets. Meh.

Holmes turned into an ass, but we have at least one less ring if he never happened. i give him a pat on the back for that.

Now were just trying to give brown more credit than he deserves. Mostly because he has a pretty smile and we have to elevate him in order to create the largest contrast possible to pull wallace down :)

[Steelreal]

Worth noting that "Helmet Catch" by AB was more of a credit TO BEN than AB. AB almost dropped it as Ben fed him like he was in a high chair.

[BlastFurnace]

I loved Holmes when he was with the Steelers. He had that attitude...especially in big games...that "You can't cover me" and then backed it up. I don't believe there is a receiver on the roster right now that makes the SB catch against the Cardinals.

I am a big fan of Brown too though. Unfortunately, he had that injury and some really boneheaded plays this year. I think this year has humbled him a bit. I bet we see the 2011 Brown next year.

[Steelreal]

Next year? We have some more football to play THIS year. We're going to the playoffs Baby!!!!

[Craic]

Well, here's an interesting thread. For all of those who are praising Santo Holmes, let me ask how you feel about Wallace dropping balls.

Why? Because Holmes was just as guilty.

2009, 138 targets, 79 receptions. 57%
2008, 114 targets, 55 receptions. 48%
2007, 85 targets, 52 receptions. 61%

Except for his first year, he never broke the 60% ration plane, unlike Wallace. He's was also a lot more inconsistent year to year than Wallace was, and his numbers in NY show the same thing. Matter of fact, Wallace is on pace THIS YEAR to almost match (within 2%) Holmes's reception best reception ration after his rookie year.

He wasn't a "Big Game Receiver." He was a player that had a very good playoff run ONCE.

By the way, here's Wallace's numbers.

2012, 114 targets, 63 receptions 55%
2011, 113 targets, 72 receptions 64%
2010, 100 targets, 60 receptions 60%
2009, 72 targets, 39 receptions. 54%

I'd take Wallace OR Brown over Santo any day.

[Psycho Ward 86]

forgot to add his heroics in the '07 playoffs against the jaguars. Boy, all we had to do was kick extra points instead of 2 point conversion attempts and we might have had the greatest comeback win in playoff history.

hell, holmes actually earned that redundant pointing-the-football after 1st downs business. He didnt do that until the '08 playoffs if i recall correctly.

And then mark sanchez happened :lol:

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Well, here's an interesting thread. For all of those who are praising Santo Holmes, let me ask how you feel about Wallace dropping balls.



target to reception ratios don't equate to dropped balls. theres a staggering amount of stuff that goes on there that have nothing to do with hands. But i would also take wallace and brown over santo

[Dwinsgames]

highlight reals never tell the whole story or kids would be drafted in the first round every year that are normally undrafted FA pickups ... anyone can have an impressive highlight real and just how impressive is all on who its maker is and if they are trying to prove a specific point in doing so ....

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and here I thought I seen my last STONIO thread on a steelers section of a forum

[zulater]

how are you calculating clutchness? holmes didnt play that well in 2008 until the post season. 2009 was his best season by far. he displayed everything you expect from a #1 (even though hines was just as productive). Excellent hands, excellent body control, excellent route running.

Then the jets happened.

In 2009 Holmes and Jeff Reed lost us the Bear's game. Holmes also had crucial drops in both Bengal games.

[Dwinsgames]

In 2009 Holmes and Jeff Reed lost us the Bear's game. Holmes also had crucial drops in both Bengal games.


I remember our old forum blowing up on Stonio over those games too LOL

[Psycho Ward 86]

In 2009 Holmes and Jeff Reed lost us the Bear's game. Holmes also had crucial drops in both Bengal games.

Snowflake in a snow storm. Especially when you have to blame other players too in order to make him a scapegoat. Brown isnt more clutch sorry.

He'll probably have a better career though.

No one on this team was "clutch" in 2009 anyways. Except for wallace in the packers game but you probably wouldnt like me giving wallace props

[zulater]

Snowflake in a snow storm. Especially when you have to blame other players too in order to make him a scapegoat. Brown isnt more clutch sorry.

He'll probably have a better career though.

No one on this team was "clutch" in 2009 anyways. Except for wallace in the packers game but you probably wouldnt like me giving wallace props

Wallace played a great game against the Packers.

And Holmes actually played as good or better than any Steeler the last 7 weeks of 2009. But he was the primary goat against the Bears. And had huge game changing adverse plays in both Bengal losses. Not only did he drop multiple easy touchdown passes in all 3 of those games, also his missing a hot route led to the pick 6 that sealed the Steelers fate in the Bengal loss in Pittsburgh.'

3 losses he had his fingerprints all over. So I can't say he was clutch in 2009. But I'm fine if you think so.'

By the way I love Ben. But truthfully he hasn't been clutch this season. Too many times he had the ball in his hands at the end of the game and came up short to be considered clutch this year.

One last thing. If we're counting I've proclaimed Antonio Brown the primary goat in two losses this season. ( Oakland and Dallas). So the assetion that I'm playing favorites is off base.

[salamander]

I voted for Holmes based on the situations he was clutch in plus the guy helped us win a Lombardi.

[Count Steeler]

Here's hoping Brown gets to play in an SB in the near future. Then we can visit this question again.

[steeldawg]

Has to be holmes he made a great catch on the largest stage in a do or die moment it doesnt get any more clutch than that. Holmes made alot of big catches for us, i can only think of the helmet catch for brown and his postseason numbers are not really impressive.

[Steelreal]

Wallace played a great game against the Packers.

And Holmes actually played as good or better than any Steeler the last 7 weeks of 2009. But he was the primary goat against the Bears. And had huge game changing adverse plays in both Bengal losses. Not only did he drop multiple easy touchdown passes in all 3 of those games, also his missing a hot route led to the pick 6 that sealed the Steelers fate in the Bengal loss in Pittsburgh.'

3 losses he had his fingerprints all over. So I can't say he was clutch in 2009. But I'm fine if you think so.'

By the way I love Ben. But truthfully he hasn't been clutch this season. Too many times he had the ball in his hands at the end of the game and came up short to be considered clutch this year.

One last thing. If we're counting I've proclaimed Antonio Brown the primary goat in two losses this season. ( Oakland and Dallas). So the assetion that I'm playing favorites is off base.

3 losses? How many WINS Do you attribute to him? How about the game winnning Td vs the CHARGERS. How about the game winning TD vs the Ravens in the AFCCG? How about the game winning Catch in SB 40? I'll take those THREE playoff wins over those meaningless REGULAR season games.

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Wallace played a great game against the Packers.

And Holmes actually played as good or better than any Steeler the last 7 weeks of 2009. But he was the primary goat against the Bears. And had huge game changing adverse plays in both Bengal losses. Not only did he drop multiple easy touchdown passes in all 3 of those games, also his missing a hot route led to the pick 6 that sealed the Steelers fate in the Bengal loss in Pittsburgh.'

3 losses he had his fingerprints all over. So I can't say he was clutch in 2009. But I'm fine if you think so.'

By the way I love Ben. But truthfully he hasn't been clutch this season. Too many times he had the ball in his hands at the end of the game and came up short to be considered clutch this year.

One last thing. If we're counting I've proclaimed Antonio Brown the primary goat in two losses this season. ( Oakland and Dallas). So the assetion that I'm playing favorites is off base.

Fair

[zulater]

3 losses? How many WINS Do you attribute to him? How about the game winnning Td vs the CHARGERS. How about the game winning TD vs the Ravens in the AFCCG? How about the game winning Catch in SB 40? I'll take those THREE playoff wins over those meaningless REGULAR season games.


Meaningless losses? In a season we missed the playoffs on a tie breaker one loss isn't meaningless let alone 3!


How many losses do you attribute to Ben? Denver pick 6 to Porter. Dallas Pick to Carr. I'm all for constructive criticism but lets dish it out evenly. I see Ben Roethlisberger get all the credit in wins but Tomlin, Haley, Wallace, Brown, the dogg, the baby, the new wife get the blame when we lose. Fair? Nope



This year? Ben didn't do enough in the losses to the Broncos, the Raiders, the Titans, and against the Cowboys to get the win. I wouldn't say he was the primary reason we lost any of them. But I'm dissapointed in the way he finished all those games.

One last thing. Ben should have been MVP in SB XLIII. Basically he's the only qb in NFL history to deliver the clinching play 3 times in one game.

How so?

1.Ben executed perfectly on the safety. That 3rd down pass would in effect have sealed the win without the hold. Ben came through in the clutch there.

2. Then after making plays to drive the Steelers down the field he delivered a ball perfectly into Holmes hands in the left corner of the end zone, only to have Holmes drop the ball.

3. Then he finds Holmes in the right corner on his 3rd read!

Any other qb in the league gets the MVP award in that game. But the press votes it and Ben is disliked by them ( even before the accusations) so they gave it to Holmes.

Holmes had a great game though. I'm not saying otherwise.

[86WARD]

3 seasons Holmes > 3 seasons Brown. No doubt.

[Dwinsgames]

3 seasons Holmes > 3 seasons Brown. No doubt.


no doubt because and only because Holmes actually was on the field for 3 full season and Brown is just in his 3rd now and spent most of his rookie year on the sidelines and or inactive ....

Just 19 targets for Brown as a rookie Sanders was ahead of him on the depth chart their rookie year

[Dwinsgames]

285 targets for Holmes his first 3 seasons 156 catches 2587 yards 44 games played

240 targets for Brown his first 3 seasons 147 catches 1943 yards and counting 36 games played first 9 was almost strictly as a punt returner

[Craic]

Hate to admit it Zu, but you're exactly right concerning Ben this year. He just doesn't have the fourth quarter magic that he used to have - well, except for those four games in the middle of the season.

[steelreserve]

I don't think "clutch" is the same as saying who's the better player. Holmes has had more clutch moments, but I think Brown contributes just as much if not more on a day-to-day basis. Holmes also had his problems with some poorly timed fumbles too, IIRC. Holmes unfortunately also had about a 3-year career to speak of; I have much higher hopes for Brown.

[bayz101]

I believe Antonio is the better player, but he's not reached the "Holmes" clutch level just yet. He DID make an AMAZING catch off of his helmet to give us the win in the playoffs not that long ago, though, and I believe he'll be clutch for us when given the opportunity.

[cold-hard-steel]

Just put an s in front of his name and he becomes Santonio. LOL.

[Seven]

Holmes was more clutch but that doesn't necessarily mean he is or will be the better player.

[GBMelBlount]

Holmes was / is incredibly gifted and the pitch-catch with Ben on the super bowl winning catch was beyond amazing.

However I will take a humbled down Brown.

He is going through a bit of a patch right now but I love his work ethic and attitude.


Zulater

This year? Ben didn't do enough in the losses to the Broncos, the Raiders, the Titans, and against the Cowboys to get the win. I wouldn't say he was the primary reason we lost any of them. But I'm dissapointed in the way he finished all those games.

I don't feel Ben has had the same intensity and competitiveness he had earlier in his career.

His first few years he racked up 4th quarter comeback wins like crazy...

Not so much any more it seems.

[BlastFurnace]

Holmes was / is incredibly gifted and the pitch-catch with Ben on the super bowl winning catch was beyond amazing.

However I will take a humbled down Brown.

He is going through a bit of a patch right now but I love his work ethic and attitude.



I don't feel Ben has had the same intensity and competitiveness he had earlier in his career.

His first few years he racked up 4th quarter comeback wins like crazy...

Not so much any more it seems.

Agree on both statements.

[zulater]

Hate to admit it Zu, but you're exactly right concerning Ben this year. He just doesn't have the fourth quarter magic that he used to have - well, except for those four games in the middle of the season.


I think Antonio Brown's and Willie colon's injuries really derailed this season. Just when Ben and the offense were getting some flow and getting a comfort level with the new offense. Wham we lose our attitude in the middle of the line and Ben's favorite 3rd down target.

Seriously those that are judging Ben harshly, look at the 3rd down conversion rate before the injuries and after. It's like a different team.

[BlastFurnace]

I think Antonio Brown's and Willie colon's injuries really derailed this season. Just when Ben and the offense were getting some flow and getting a comfort level with the new offense. Wham we lose our attitude in the middle of the line and Ben's favorite 3rd down target.

Seriously those that are judging Ben harshly, look at the 3rd down conversion rate before the injuries and after. It's like a different team.

What bothers me is it seems whenever Ben gets hurt on the field, it's seems to always be against a crappy team.

2012 - Kansas City (Rib, Shoulder)
2011 - Cleveland (Ankle)
2010 - He got a foot injury against someone and had to wear a huge shoe, just don't remember who the injury came against.
2009 - Kansas City (Concussion)
2008 - Cleveland (Last game layed out and taken off on a stretcher)

The exceptions have been:

2010 - Baltimore (Broken Nose)
2006 - Motorcycle accident
2005 - San Diego (Ankle/Foot)

[Steelreal]

I think Antonio Brown's and Willie colon's injuries really derailed this season. Just when Ben and the offense were getting some flow and getting a comfort level with the new offense. Wham we lose our attitude in the middle of the line and Ben's favorite 3rd down target.

Seriously those that are judging Ben harshly, look at the 3rd down conversion rate before the injuries and after. It's like a different team.

I'm not being harsh on Ben, I feel I am being very objective. I just dont prescribe to the school of thought that we can evaluate everyone but Ben is off limits.

The Ben you described was NEW BEN, the guy that got hurt was OLD BEN. He came back as OLD BEN. I prefer the one you prefer. Ben was executing on 3rd down and scoring TOUCHDOWNS. For Ben to have only have thrown 30 TDS once with all his weapons is a travesty and underachieving. Ben had a problem with Cowher/Wiz coaching him. He had early success so do you blame him? Todd Haley is the kind of coach who can Maximize Ben's potential and I like that, it benefits the Steelers.

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What bothers me is it seems whenever Ben gets hurt on the field, it's seems to always be against a crappy team.

2012 - Kansas City (Rib, Shoulder)
2011 - Cleveland (Ankle)
2010 - He got a foot injury against someone and had to wear a huge shoe, just don't remember who the injury came against.
2009 - Kansas City (Concussion)
2008 - Cleveland (Last game layed out and taken off on a stretcher)

The exceptions have been:

2010 - Baltimore (Broken Nose)
2006 - Motorcycle accident
2005 - San Diego (Ankle/Foot)

Back injury vs Skins 08. But we complain that Polamalu is always hurt

[Steelreal]

That was sarcasm. Ben gets hurt due to his gritty style just like #43. I just wish he would STAY in the pocket and play more like Manning, Brady and Brees. Keeps you healty. WE NEED #7