Haley!

[Steelermania]

I'm starting to get sick of him. I can't give Lebeau or Tomlin any grief today. The D did as well as they could with the injuries, and the team overall played well. Tell Haley Dwyer sucks. Redman is healthy, and he's clearly the better back. He's running like a beast, and then he doesn't get the ball. WTF! He should have given Redman the ball when we had it at midfield under 2 minutes, and he should have given him the ball on 2nd and 3 in overtime. I'm so tired of watching Dwyer jiggle his feet, behind the line. He's slow as hell, he blows!

[steel9guy]

How is it Haley's fault? Careless players are screwing up this team. AB fumble in oakland, sanders in baltimore, brown on special teams. I think Haley is doing a good job. Feel bad for him that his players CAN"T HANDLE THE BALL!!!!

[salamander]

So it's Haley's fault that AB fumbled? It's Haley's fault the o-line couldn't hold their blocks aside from a few times when Ben actually had time? This is FAR from being Haley's fault.

[Carl1970]

Im speaking with pure emotion after another letdown performance by this team, but, I just felt it in my bones that somehow Ben would throw a pick if this game went to overtime.
But the reason for this post: What type of offensive genius is Haley anyhow?
After getting the ball at the 50 yard line, his play calling was horrendous.
On a day when Antonio messed the bed, the last thing this team needed was an offensive coordinator who has the creative mindset of a freshly embalmed corpse.
Another golden opportunity lost with the Broncos beating the Gayvens.
This is NOT the Steelers I have devoted an entire lifetime to cheer for.
Heads must roll!

[Steelermania]

How is it Haley's fault? Careless players are screwing up this team. AB fumble in oakland, sanders in baltimore, brown on special teams. I think Haley is doing a good job. Feel bad for him that his players CAN"T HANDLE THE BALL!!!!

How about using your best back when the situation calls for it? The first and 10 play at midfield was the perfect spot to run Redman. Plenty of time left. Burning a little clock is not a problem. The last time Redman got the ball, he looked like Jim Brown in his prime. He never got the ball again. Stupid!

[X-Terminator]

So Haley gets no credit for helping the offense come back from a 10-point deficit? None at all? Haley is the LAST person anyone should be blaming for this loss.

[fansince'76]

More bubble screens!

:chuckle:

[SteelerFanInStl]

Can't blame this game on Haley. The offense played better than the defense did. Bown gave this game away with his fumble.

[tube517]

LOL, it's always the OC's fault.

[Steelermania]

Im speaking with pure emotion after another letdown performance by this team, but, I just felt it in my bones that somehow Ben would throw a pick if this game went to overtime.
But the reason for this post: What type of offensive genius is Haley anyhow?
After getting the ball at the 50 yard line, his play calling was horrendous.
On a day when Antonio messed the bed, the last thing this team needed was an offensive coordinator who has the creative mindset of a freshly embalmed corpse.
Another golden opportunity lost with the Broncos beating the Gayvens.
This is NOT the Steelers I have devoted an entire lifetime to cheer for.
Heads must roll!

Agree! The sad thing is, we actually played very well for the most part. On a day where we had to play our 4th and 5th corners, Timmons, and Harrison made some big plays to get us off the field.

[salamander]

LOL, it's always the OC's fault.

FIRE ARIANSSSS!!! Oh, wait... :chuckle: :lol:

[Count Steeler]

Haley, no way.

Brown in the 4th quarter. Fumble and fail to catch the punt.

No DBs left. Down to our 4th stringers. Troy is still not right.

[stillers4me]

How about using your best back when the situation calls for it? The first and 10 play at midfield was the perfect spot to run Redman. Plenty of time left. Burning a little clock is not a problem. The last time Redman got the ball, he looked like Jim Brown in his prime. He never got the ball again. Stupid!

Redman hurt his ankle.

[steel9guy]

I've said it before and will say it again. I like Todd Haley on this team. If we would execute correctly and practice ball control this season would have a totally different look.

[Carl1970]

I agree with Steelermania. I startec another thread, which will probably get merged into this one, but Haley is horrific.
You get the ball at the 50 and you call 2 successive runs, with backs that clearly werent running the heck out ofbthe ball. wheres the creativity, or, the gunslinger go for the jugular attitude when you are at the 50?

This team plays too close to the vest. The D line cant mount any pressure when its needed unless linebackers are blitzed.
I dont know what the answer is, nor do I feel this team has what it takes to even be considered a playoff team.
The window has about closed on many key players, yet, we have coaches that have consistently acknowledged that they have blundered and failed to get this team prepared. HEADS NEED TO ROLL,

[Dwinsgames]

http://www.steeleraddicts.com/forum/images/smilies/21.gif

How does anyone here or anywhere else for that matter Blame Haley for the outcome of this game when CLEARLY the game was ours and carelessly dropped by A.B. allowing the tying score when we where 2 first downs from going up by 10 if he just hangs onto the football ?????

plenty of other plays that made a difference too such as the line collapsing late in the game , Ben tossing a pick at the end .....

but its just easier to place the blame on someone that never stepped onto the field of play than it is the guy who's jersey you bought in the off season I know http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/icon_eyeroll.gif

[Steelermania]

We really need to draft a back in the second round this year. Murray just gashed us. We need one of those.

[Steeldude]

He sounds like an Arians fan incognito.:behindsofa:

[tube517]

Redman hurt his ankle.

Still Haley's fault. :nono: :chuckle:

[HollywoodSteel]

We really need to draft a back in the second round this year. Murray just gashed us. We need one of those.

If we spend a 2nd round pick on a RB he had better be by far the best player available at the time. We have too many needs on defense. We need an inside linebacker, an outside linebacker, at least one safety, and another NT depending on what happens with that moron Ta'amu.

BTW, Murray was a third round pick.

[HollywoodSteel]

I don't always love Haley's play calling but you can't just fire him and think problems like WRs dropping and coughing up the ball will be fixed. Injuries have certainly hurt us, especially on the defensive side, but we are losing winnable games because of just a few boneheaded things by our players every week. Not only are they screwing up physically but they just seem to be stupid. Two weeks in a row AB has made mental errors. I know he has a great attitude and is a hard worker but he's either not very smart or just doesn't understand the nuances of the game the way an NFL player should.

[Steelermania]

Redman hurt his ankle.

He was on the field during the last drive of regulation.

[Craic]

:bored:
Didn't even bother reading the rest of the thread after the first post. Let's take a look:




Points
Passing Yards
Rushing
Yards


Dallas's defense for season (per game average):
24.2
217.8
118.8


Allowed Today vs. Steelers
24
319
69



Haley's offense scored the same number of points on average as everyone else this year.
They gained 146% of the passing yards of that other teams gain on average.
They gained 58% of the rushing yards that other teams gain on average.

So, our offense was average or better than average in two out of three basic categories today, and that's with a third string RT, a rookie RG's FIRST NFL season game, and a LG's first game at that position.


I forgot. It's a common SF/SU thing. FIRE ARIA- er, HALEY!

[Edman]

Haley didn't tell Antonio Brown to fumble on a punt return.

[fansince'76]

Haley didn't tell Antonio Brown to fumble on a punt return.

Or stand there with his thumb up his ass on the next punt. Or foolishly go out of bounds giving Dallas more time on the clock near the end of regulation...

[43Hitman]

:bored:
Didn't even bother reading the rest of the thread after the first post. Let's take a look:




Points
Passing Yards
Rushing
Yards


Dallas's defense for season (per game average):
24.2
217.8
118.8


Allowed Today vs. Steelers
24
319
69



Haley's offense scored the same number of points on average as everyone else this year.
They gained 146% of the passing yards of that other teams gain on average.
They gained 58% of the rushing yards that other teams gain on average.

So, our offense was average or better than average in two out of three basic categories today, and that's with a third string RT, a rookie RG's FIRST NFL season game, and a LG's first game at that position.


I forgot. It's a common SF/SU thing. FIRE ARIA- er, HALEY!


Haley didn't tell Antonio Brown to fumble on a punt return.

Exactly. How anyone can put this one on Haley is beyond me. Get a clue noobs.

[Dwinsgames]

Get a clue noobs.

http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/owned.gif

[SteelGhost]

The PUTRID defense tackling was Haley's fault too ! :chuckle:

[Psycho Ward 86]

Redman hurt his ankle.

reinjured his ankle. People forget he played with a high ankle sprain early in the season. That stays with you. And he's still able to run like that. Still an underappreciated player.

[smokin3000gt]

Well to be fair I am surprised the hate Haley train took this long to get rolling. Bottom line is ball control has been absolutely horrible. If Ben's passes aren't hitting the turf, they're bouncing off receiver's hands. I can't believe all the fumbles, dropped passes, turn overs, and missed opportunities of late. I hardly see that as Haley's fault and let's not forget the defense! We have got to keep points off the board.

[Craic]

He sounds like an Arians fan incognito.:behindsofa:

I think you mean an angry FIRE ARIANS fan. They're the ones that think they know better than the OC's.

[Steeldude]

I think you mean an angry FIRE ARIANS fan. They're the ones that think they know better than the OC's.

No, I mean Arians fan. The fans that wanted Arians fired weren't calling for his head 14 games into his career as the Steelers OC. IMO, he sounds like a bitter Arians fan. It's similar to how the Kordell lovers wanted Maddox gone as soon as he became the starter.

[Pristas]

I knew we were going to score a lot of points yesterday. Ben needed the previous game to knock the rust off, then he was Ben yesterday. Really the offense did very well scoring points. Haley's offense came up big, with just a few really costly errors. Ben for the most part stayed upright all night.

Our defense gets the goat here. No excuse for giving up that much yardage to Dallas. And really it begins with stopping the run. We didn't do it and they were able to set up the pass. Murray carrying the ball for 9 yards over and over made me sick. We really need to draft some serious linebackers. This is by far our weakest position. The d backs did well considering how deep we had to reach. Some of those guys were bound to give up plays, but they also made a few. I loved that pass defensed by Brown in the endzone. That was magical!!! Too bad he got hurt on that play. And really the d backs didn't give one up over the top.

[steel9guy]

Our 3rd down percent in the first half of the season before Ben got hurt and horrible position that the special teams gives Haley nearly every possession is a big concern for me. This is on the team and not Haley.

[Edman]

If Antonio Brown doesn't fumble a routine punt return, the Offense most likely puts this game out of reach.

Dallas couldn't stop the Steelers, and they weren't going to. Brown took all the wind out of the teams' sails when he fumbled. That fumble lost the game.

Antonio Brown is the master goat of this loss.

[NCSteeler]

I think the play calling was still limited, Ben looked terrible on throws to his right. I think several went straight into the ground. But by far this loss is not Haley's to shoulder. Given more than one late opportunity we should have put the game away but for some seriously lousy Oline blocking and WRs unable to get open it didn't happen.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I knew we were going to score a lot of points yesterday.

24 points in this league isnt that much at all

[Dwinsgames]

24 points in this league isnt that much at all

exactly ... 15 games played this to this point this week only 2 winning teams scored less than 24 , one of those wins came by pitching a shutout over the chiefs .....

[Butch]

Don't know how anyone can put this one on Haley or the D??? There have been more than a few losses this year that can be put on the money crew and this one can be put squarely on Brown. The D forced a 3 and out and we were going to get the ball back with all the momentum, then Brown had a nice return only to fumble it away, putting the D right back on the field. Then he fails to field the very next punt and to top it all off runs outta bounds to save dallas a time out. Don't see how anyone can see it any other way at least not this game.

[Steelreal]

Blame Haley? For what? Ben was on a MVP pace and playing better than he EVER has in his career. Due to Haley
Ben Roethlisberger has poor fundamentals and thats why he was throwing errant passes, not his shoulder. When Ben properly swung his hips he threw excellent to the right (See TD to Heath and Pass to FB in the flats. Also, TD to Brown). All the pump faking to buy time is another example of poor fundamentals. Do you see Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Marino, Elway, Montana, Young etc EVER doing that? It leaves the ball unprotected. Does it work? Yes, sometimes but you dont want you Quarterback doing that. Im sure Haley doesnt like it either. Im sure Ben does. Clash.

An OC calls the play before he sees the defense. Its up to the Quarterback to change the play IF the defense is aligned to stop called play. There is NO offensive coordinator in the world who would handicap Brady or Manning. You notice their are never any OC convos wherever Manning and Brady reside? Thats because they make an OC irrelevant due to their intelligence of the game. Heck, Brady has had Mcdaniels (2), Obrien and Weis and he didnt miss a beat. Manning is learning a new system just like Ben is. Do you think that the Broncos offense is efficient due to the OC or due to Manning? I think we all agree its due to Manning. All of this blaming the OC is ludicrous to me, if you are an elite quarterback you make the OC obsolete. Ben gets sacked way too much and this is due to indecision. He pump fakes and runs around to buy more time to read the defense. Haley is the Best thing for Ben. He makes Ben work at his craft. He isnt intimidated by Ben. He pushes Ben and challenges Ben and Ben isnt used to that. Tomlin sure doesnt and neither did Arians. Ben hasnt been pushed like that since Cowher/Wiz and Ben hated it then too. If Ben doesnt like the called plays then he should audible. I dont think Manning and Brady needed an OC to call play for Gronk or Dallas Clark. Coverage dictates where the ball should go, not a called play.

[Butch]

I don't see how pump fakes have anything to do with the loss. I don't see a lot of those QB's doing what Ben does, but that doesn't mean that what Ben does is wrong. Most of those QB's you mention also go down at the site of a defender anywhere within 2 feet of them. I for one like what Ben does it's what makes him successful more times than not. The int. was a bad pass and that stuff's gonna happen hopefully not at the worst possible time, but every QB including marsha and the manning's have thrown them as well.

Oh and while you speak of the greatness of tom terrific keep in mind that he also befitted from a few strategically placed camera's as well.

[Steelreal]

I don't see how pump fakes have anything to do with the loss. I don't see a lot of those QB's doing what Ben does, but that doesn't mean that what Ben does is wrong. Most of those QB's you mention also go down at the site of a defender anywhere within 2 feet of them. I for one like what Ben does it's what makes him successful more times than not. The int. was a bad pass and that stuff's gonna happen hopefully not at the worst possible time, but every QB including marsha and the manning's have thrown them as well.

Oh and while you speak of the greatness of tom terrific keep in mind that he also befitted from a few strategically placed camera's as well.

Oh the Brady is great due to Spygate argument. Really? If Brady is in the Burgh Ben is on the bench or Traded. Same with Manning. My point is pump faking is bush league. No quarterback coach teaches that crap. Its unorthodox. My point is Ben has played the best I have ever seen him play under Haley. If you dont think Ben can improve well then we will disagree. Was that game losing int Haleys fault or Bens?

Ron Jaworski gives an excellent detailed insight to the relationship between an OC and a quarterback on Mike and Mike. He spoke specifically about Ben and Haley.

[Mojouw]

Oh the Brady is great due to Spygate argument. Really? If Brady is in the Burgh Ben is on the bench or Traded. Same with Manning. My point is pump faking is bush league. No quarterback coach teaches that crap. Its unorthodox. My point is Ben has played the best I have ever seen him play under Haley. If you dont think Ben can improve well then we will disagree. Was that game losing int Haleys fault or Bens?

Ron Jaworski gives an excellent detailed insight to the relationship between an OC and a quarterback on Mike and Mike. He spoke specifically about Ben and Haley.

I think we can all agree that Tom Brady is a very good quarterback. The further non-sense about running around to elude pass rushers and pump fakes being a bad thing is ludicrous. I am assuming that you watched and remember the SB against the Cardinals a few years ago. I seem to remember a certain player's pump fakes and running around behind the line being critical to the outcome of the that game.

Sure Ben's playing style is unorthodox and I am convinced that his ability to read a defense pre-snap is well below that of Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, etc. But his ability to run around and create things during the play, his pump-fakes, and his play-action fakes are what makes him successful. There are several QB's who have built HOF caliber careers on playing with terrible mechanics and often resorting to "sandlot" football.

[Craic]

No, I mean Arians fan. The fans that wanted Arians fired weren't calling for his head 14 games into his career as the Steelers OC. IMO, he sounds like a bitter Arians fan. It's similar to how the Kordell lovers wanted Maddox gone as soon as he became the starter.

That's right, they waited until the 19th or 20th game. SUCH a difference!








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http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 10-28-2008, 01:34 PM
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http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: People jumping off of Big Ben's wagon
Ben definetly had a bad game. Out of the 4 ints only one was a very poor decision. The 1st int should have been for a long gain. I think Ben saw the safety and tried to throw the ball in the dirt. And the safety made a great play. Problem is Ben should have seen the position of the safety and gone over the top to Ward. Possibly Ben thought Ward would break to the left seeing how shallow the safety was playing.

Ben still has a way to go to be elite, as far as reading defenses. But his athleticism, toughness and gamesmanship are what make him great at this point in his career.

Ben's a playmaker and sometimes that attribute works against him. Besides having Ben sometimes take what the D gives him, I wouldn't change a thing. And I will not waiver from my belief that the offensive woes are due to Arians, not Ben.













http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 12-19-2008, 02:26 PM
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http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Fire the Steeler Fans
Quote:


Originally Posted by HometownGal http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?p=500386#post500386)
AMEN Brother! (Without the Geritol, of course) http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/smilies/chuckle.gifhttp://forums.steelersfever.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

Spoiled . . . . and damned unappreciative. The winning tradition that the Rooneys and many of the teams over the last 35+ years have established is unlike any other sports franchise in the world.http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/smilies/applaudit.gif

Being a Steelers fan is not a God given right - - - it's a PRIVILEGE. http://forums.steelersfever.com/images/smilies/tt03.gifhttp://forums.steelersfever.com/images/smilies/tt02.gif



There's a difference ... being a fan means rooting for the team through good and bad, that's all. It doesn't mean you have to be rah-rah and never complain about the problems.

It's not like the Ben/Parker/Arians/O-Line "haters" are actually rooting for a poor performance out of those people -- quite the opposite, in fact. They're just frustrated because they/the team could be doing better than that. And if anything, THAT is your god-given right as a fan.




Nope, I think you mean Arians-haters. Their just getting an early start by a few games. That's all. (bold and larger text are my changes).



(BY THE WAY Steelreserve - take a look at your location here! :buttkick: (And i wasn't intending to call you out here regarding the content of the post, it just happened to be a post that came up to prove my point)

[Steelreal]

I think we can all agree that Tom Brady is a very good quarterback. The further non-sense about running around to elude pass rushers and pump fakes being a bad thing is ludicrous. I am assuming that you watched and remember the SB against the Cardinals a few years ago. I seem to remember a certain player's pump fakes and running around behind the line being critical to the outcome of the that game.

Sure Ben's playing style is unorthodox and I am convinced that his ability to read a defense pre-snap is well below that of Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, etc. But his ability to run around and create things during the play, his pump-fakes, and his play-action fakes are what makes him successful. There are several QB's who have built HOF caliber careers on playing with terrible mechanics and often resorting to "sandlot" football.

Ben has played 9 years. As stated it will work sometimes and we have benifitted from it but he has been unsuccessful with it much more. Did you see the sacks that took us out of FG range in the 4th quarter? Throw the ball away and we set up Suisham. If its such a good thing then why dont Qb coaches teach it???? I just named almost 10 Hall of Fame quarterbacks who do not do the ridiculous pump fakes. Ther is a reason. Why do you guys get so defensive when someone crticizes Ben?

[Steelreal]

I am very turned off by Ben's post game comments. Let me rephrase that. I am ver disappointed with them. Why? Because a OC shouldnt have to call a play for Heath. Ben is a nine year vet he should be able to audible to a play for Heath. He should be able to motion Heath and put him in a favorable matchup that gets him open. Quarterbacks that depend on Offensive Coordinators are GAME MANAGERS. Is that Ben? GOD FORBID!!

[steel striker]

It's not Haley fault we can't put a complete game together dropped passes fumbles ect. Poor tackling

[Steelreal]

Here is what Jaw said on Mike and Mike. I find it very insighful.

The play caller and the quarterback must be joined at the hip. What you must do as a quarterback and you do have input. Although I havent played in two decades, I know the systems that Quarterbacks and offensive coordinators have in place in regards to play calling. They have this sheet, that everyone goes over, all the quarterbacks. And you do have input. 1st down of a series, 1st and 10, 2nd and 1-3, 2nd and 4-6, 3rd and 1-3, 3rd and 4-6 etc. Every situation is on there. Every play is on that sheet and every play is listed and we see this IHOP menus that most coaches have. When you have your quarterback meeting on Friday or Saturday whatever the team decides that’s what they want to do. You go down that list- “Hey Ben the 1st 3rd and 7 and more, what do you like? The first short yard situation, what do you like? All of the quarterbacks give their input but the starter has the most. The quarterback does have input and if you’re smart enough which I think all of the quarterbacks in this league are at the end of your series you go to you Offensive Coordinator and say “You know the next time we get in 3rd and 7 or long or 3rd and 1 or 3 here is what I would like to do because this is what we are getting” You have got to have that constant communication so when the play is called you would have already talked about that play on the sideline before that series began. So there shouldn’t be any problem with the play being right or wrong. Mike Golic reads Ben Roethlisbergers comments. Jaws continues “Well I think they would have a meeting before the weekend meeting due to those comments. Possibly there was a discussion on the plane ride home about some of these comments. I guarantee you Toddy Haley heard about them immediately. But if Ben wants to talk after a game, I think that’s a mistake. Number 1 I think (If he felt that way about the play calling) he should have communicated this during the game. For example: “Hey coach Heath Miller is being covered by that Linebacker one on one lets call some plays to get him the ball” He should have done that rather than wait after the game and say “We didn’t call plays for Heath Miller” I think its incumbent upon Ben Roethlisberger to have input about that Now if he said “Todd Haley blew me off” now then I’d be upset. He should have input, he is a veteran quarterback who probably knows this offense better than Todd Haley does.

[Butch]

Oh the Brady is great due to Spygate argument. Really? If Brady is in the Burgh Ben is on the bench or Traded. Same with Manning. My point is pump faking is bush league. No quarterback coach teaches that crap. Its unorthodox. My point is Ben has played the best I have ever seen him play under Haley. If you dont think Ben can improve well then we will disagree. Was that game losing int Haleys fault or Bens?

Ron Jaworski gives an excellent detailed insight to the relationship between an OC and a quarterback on Mike and Mike. He spoke specifically about Ben and Haley.

Dude take a chill pill. Where in my post did I even mention the loss being Haley's fault??? It was Ben's fault but it had nothing at all to do with him pump faking. In your opinion you would rather have Brady or Manning I get it. Me I'll take Ben and all his faults any day. So pump fakes are bush league now...ok. Wonder how you felt about the pump fakes when Ben was winning Superbowls with 'em??? I know not everyone is a Ben fan and I can understand that as well.

As for Jaws he's media and I really don't give a rats ass what he say or thinks, not that I heard any of what he had to say either.

[zulater]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2012/12/17/ben-roethlisberger-pittsburgh-steelers-dallas-cowboys/1774129/

It's all spin. Ben didn't say anything out of line. He answered some questions honestly and annointed blame first and foremost to himself, as he has always done.

[steeldawg]

Oh the Brady is great due to Spygate argument. Really? If Brady is in the Burgh Ben is on the bench or Traded. Same with Manning. My point is pump faking is bush league. No quarterback coach teaches that crap. Its unorthodox. My point is Ben has played the best I have ever seen him play under Haley. If you dont think Ben can improve well then we will disagree. Was that game losing int Haleys fault or Bens?

Ron Jaworski gives an excellent detailed insight to the relationship between an OC and a quarterback on Mike and Mike. He spoke specifically about Ben and Haley.

Bush league???, actually i think all qbs are taught to pump fake, ben has on of the best pump fakes i have ever seen, the pump fake is a tool used by qbs to freeze defenders its the same thing as a qb looking off a safety.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Bush league???, actually i think all qbs are taught to pump fake, ben has on of the best pump fakes i have ever seen, the pump fake is a tool used by qbs to freeze defenders its the same thing as a qb looking off a safety.

Exactly! Bush league? :lol: Ben uses the pump fake to move defenders away from where he wants to throw the ball and he does it very well.

[Steelreal]

Dude take a chill pill. Where in my post did I even mention the loss being Haley's fault??? It was Ben's fault but it had nothing at all to do with him pump faking. In your opinion you would rather have Brady or Manning I get it. Me I'll take Ben and all his faults any day. So pump fakes are bush league now...ok. Wonder how you felt about the pump fakes when Ben was winning Superbowls with 'em??? I know not everyone is a Ben fan and I can understand that as well.

As for Jaws he's media and I really don't give a rats ass what he say or thinks, not that I heard any of what he had to say either.

Ben wasnt winning Super Bowls the STEELERS were. And in those Super Bowls the Steelers carries Ben because he hasnt played well in any of them. Game winning throw was excellent but we should have blown the cards out. I AM a Ben fan but the difference is he is not above criticism with me. Brady and Manning habitually beat Ben DESPITE having a worse team than Ben. The Steelers have supplied Ben with some of the best talent imaginable and Brady and Manning still beat him. Management has givin Ben. Troy Polamalu, Jerome Bettis. Plaxico Burress, Mike Wallace, Hines Ward, Antonio Brown, Santionio Holmes, Heath Miller, Rashard Mendenhall, James Harrson, Lamarr Woodley, M. Pouncey, Alan Fanaca, Decastro, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor and Ryan Clark. No go ahead and list the same amount of talent for Brady and Manning. Come on bro The Steelers Rock, its not just Ben.

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Exactly! Bush league? :lol: Ben uses the pump fake to move defenders away from where he wants to throw the ball and he does it very well.

My point is NO quarterback coach teaches that. Why not? Why havent any greats used it? Why dont any current greats use it? You are taught to take care of the ball. Not pump it all over the place.

[Chidi29]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2012/12/17/ben-roethlisberger-pittsburgh-steelers-dallas-cowboys/1774129/

It's all spin. Ben didn't say anything out of line. He answered some questions honestly and annointed blame first and foremost to himself, as he has always done.

And listening to the interview, after the "We didn't call the right plays" comment, he immediately followed it up with, "There were a couple times we called plays, we just didn't execute correctly". So that was taken out of context.

Though it does seem like he was very unhappy about not going to the no-huddle in the second half.

[Steelreal]

For the record I am a Haley fan. I have hopes that he will succeed Tomlin

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And listening to the interview, after the "We didn't call the right plays" comment, he immediately followed it up with, "There were a couple times we called plays, we just didn't execute correctly". So that was taken out of context.

Though it does seem like he was very unhappy about not going to the no-huddle in the second half. We did go to no huddle in the 2nd half. He threw a pick. I think Overtime is considered 2nd half.

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Bush league???, actually i think all qbs are taught to pump fake, ben has on of the best pump fakes i have ever seen, the pump fake is a tool used by qbs to freeze defenders its the same thing as a qb looking off a safety.
Not the way Ben does it. He feints like he is passing and brings the ball down by his hip. Very dangerous. When Manning and Brady pump fake the KEEP the ball high, this is the proper way to do it in order to protect the ball. Fundamentals. So if Mendenhall carries the ball away from his body your fine with it? I'm not.

[SteelerFanInStl]

My point is NO quarterback coach teaches that. Why not? Why havent any greats used it? Why dont any current greats use it? You are taught to take care of the ball. Not pump it all over the place.

So you're a student of every QB coach? :lol: EVERY QB uses the pump fake. Maybe they don't use it as much as Ben but they still use it. Every QB has their own style. I've heard Ben praised by quite a few people for his skill at using the pump fake. You're the first person that I've ever heard criticize it.

[Steelreal]

Here is what Jaw said on Mike and Mike. I find it very insighful.

The play caller and the quarterback must be joined at the hip. What you must do as a quarterback and you do have input. Although I havent played in two decades, I know the systems that Quarterbacks and offensive coordinators have in place in regards to play calling. They have this sheet, that everyone goes over, all the quarterbacks. And you do have input. 1st down of a series, 1st and 10, 2nd and 1-3, 2nd and 4-6, 3rd and 1-3, 3rd and 4-6 etc. Every situation is on there. Every play is on that sheet and every play is listed and we see this IHOP menus that most coaches have. When you have your quarterback meeting on Friday or Saturday whatever the team decides that’s what they want to do. You go down that list- “Hey Ben the 1st 3rd and 7 and more, what do you like? The first short yard situation, what do you like? All of the quarterbacks give their input but the starter has the most. The quarterback does have input and if you’re smart enough which I think all of the quarterbacks in this league are at the end of your series you go to you Offensive Coordinator and say “You know the next time we get in 3rd and 7 or long or 3rd and 1 or 3 here is what I would like to do because this is what we are getting” You have got to have that constant communication so when the play is called you would have already talked about that play on the sideline before that series began. So there shouldn’t be any problem with the play being right or wrong. Mike Golic reads Ben Roethlisbergers comments. Jaws continues “Well I think they would have a meeting before the weekend meeting due to those comments. Possibly there was a discussion on the plane ride home about some of these comments. I guarantee you Toddy Haley heard about them immediately. But if Ben wants to talk after a game, I think that’s a mistake. Number 1 I think (If he felt that way about the play calling) he should have communicated this during the game. For example: “Hey coach Heath Miller is being covered by that Linebacker one on one lets call some plays to get him the ball” He should have done that rather than wait after the game and say “We didn’t call plays for Heath Miller” I think its incumbent upon Ben Roethlisberger to have input about that Now if he said “Todd Haley blew me off” now then I’d be upset. He should have input, he is a veteran quarterback who probably knows this offense better than Todd Haley does.

So what do guys think of Ron Jaworski's account of the events leading up to a game etc?

[zulater]

And listening to the interview, after the "We didn't call the right plays" comment, he immediately followed it up with, "There were a couple times we called plays, we just didn't execute correctly". So that was taken out of context.

Though it does seem like he was very unhappy about not going to the no-huddle in the second half.

I'm glad he gets pissed after a loss.

[Steelreal]

So you're a student of every QB coach? :lol: EVERY QB uses the pump fake. Maybe they don't use it as much as Ben but they still use it. Every QB has their own style. I've heard Ben praised by quite a few people for his skill at using the pump fake. You're the first person that I've ever heard criticize it.

Not at all but I have participated and been to a many of quarterback camp and have never seen the pump fake taught that way. If you have some footage I would be glad to see it and readily admit I was wrong. I agree every qb has their own style but dont you think its odd that only ONE quarterback in the history of the NFL uses the pump fake in that manner? Maybe two. Tim Tebow. For your entertainment below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDG4zgrNrL8

[Chidi29]

I'm glad he gets pissed after a loss.

Me too. And it certainly doesn't mean that he and Haley hate each other. It's probably just frustration.

[zulater]

Me too. And it certainly doesn't mean that he and Haley hate each other. It's probably just frustration.

Better way to put it!

:applaudit:

[Butch]

Ben wasnt winning Super Bowls the STEELERS were. And in those Super Bowls the Steelers carries Ben because he hasnt played well in any of them. Game winning throw was excellent but we should have blown the cards out. I AM a Ben fan but the difference is he is not above criticism with me. Brady and Manning habitually beat Ben DESPITE having a worse team than Ben. The Steelers have supplied Ben with some of the best talent imaginable and Brady and Manning still beat him. Management has givin Ben. Troy Polamalu, Jerome Bettis. Plaxico Burress, Mike Wallace, Hines Ward, Antonio Brown, Santionio Holmes, Heath Miller, Rashard Mendenhall, James Harrson, Lamarr Woodley, M. Pouncey, Alan Fanaca, Decastro, Lawrence Timmons, Ike Taylor and Ryan Clark. No go ahead and list the same amount of talent for Brady and Manning. Come on bro The Steelers Rock, its not just Ben.

Nope you are right about one thing it's not just Ben it's the team, just like when we lose games against the cowboys or any other team. That being said wasn't the 1st superbowl the same team Tommy Maddox had??? In the playoffs leading to the 1st Superbowl I would argue that Ben was a very big reason why we went to the superbowl. Ben did play like crap that game, but we wouldn't have been there without him. Put Tommy in there and see how it turns out. In the 2nd Ben was just as much a reason for that win as anything and the team was just as much to blame for the cardinals not being blown out as you suggest. Wasn't it Troy and the secondary that got burned that set up the game winning drive scenario??? Did Ben get caught holding in the endzone??? Nope it was the team that won and very well could have lost that game. While there may be more accurate QB's there are also some that are much worse. Would you rather have Ben or Flacco or maybe Rivers??? I once again will take Ben and all his faults.

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2012/12/17/ben-roethlisberger-pittsburgh-steelers-dallas-cowboys/1774129/

It's all spin. Ben didn't say anything out of line. He answered some questions honestly and annointed blame first and foremost to himself, as he has always done.

This is exactly what it is nothing more.

[Steelreal]

Nope you are right about one thing it's not just Ben it's the team, just like when we lose games against the cowboys or any other team. That being said wasn't the 1st superbowl the same team Tommy Maddox had??? In the playoffs leading to the 1st Superbowl I would argue that Ben was a very big reason why we went to the superbowl. Ben did play like crap that game, but we wouldn't have been there without him. Put Tommy in there and see how it turns out. In the 2nd Ben was just as much a reason for that win as anything and the team was just as much to blame for the cardinals not being blown out as you suggest. Wasn't it Troy and the secondary that got burned that set up the game winning drive scenario??? Did Ben get caught holding in the endzone??? Nope it was the team that won and very well could have lost that game. While there may be more accurate QB's there are also some that are much worse. Would you rather have Ben or Flacco or maybe Rivers??? I once again will take Ben and all his faults.

Tammy Maddox seriously? Didnt he sell insurance? OF COURSE Ben is better than Maddox. Maddox is a mere backup. In Cards Super Bowl that defense provided Ben with a 20-7 lead and a TOUCHDOWN. Point is Ben has no Super Bowl MVP's you know the award that goes to the guy who was the primary reason for the win? I would rather have Ben that ANY quarterback in the league because he is the most gifted quarterback in the NFL. Who is tougher? Who is stronger? Who can extend the play longer? Ben has more physical attributes than any QB in history. That doesnt concern me. What concerns me about Ben Roethlisberger is his decision making. He has got to take his game to the next level and get the mental aspect down. You cannot take senseless sacks that take your team out of FG range. You cannot throw a 20 yard out late when the receiver has bracket coverage. Thats why I like Haley. He can teach Ben to be patient in the pocket and take what the defense gives you. I'll say it again. Those games that Ben played early this season was some of the best quarterbacking I have ever seen in Pittsburgh. But when he came back he reverted to old Ben.

[fansince'76]

That's right, they waited until the 19th or 20th game. SUCH a difference!

Nope. Not even that long - the "Arians sucks" din started right around the same time in '07, to the day, literally (as I and others predicted when Haley got hired and were roundly ridiculed and bashed for saying so):

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=22255

[Steelreal]

I would like to see how the Arians haters are explaining the success Arians is having with a rookie.

[fansince'76]

I would like to see how the Arians haters are explaining the success Arians is having with a rookie.

The explanations I've seen bandied about are that the team is only playing inspired due to Pagano's cancer and that they've beaten a schedule of "creampuffs" (never mind that we've dropped 4 games to "creampuffs" ourselves)...

[Craic]

Ben has played 9 years. As stated it will work sometimes and we have benifitted from it but he has been unsuccessful with it much more. Did you see the sacks that took us out of FG range in the 4th quarter? Throw the ball away and we set up Suisham. If its such a good thing then why dont Qb coaches teach it???? I just named almost 10 Hall of Fame quarterbacks who do not do the ridiculous pump fakes. Ther is a reason. Why do you guys get so defensive when someone crticizes Ben?

There's a very simple reason why. THEY CAN'T. It's not even close. Ben's ability to pump fake to help his receivers get open is almost unprecedented in the NFL and it absolutely drives DC's mad.

[Craic]

Nope. Not even that long - the "Arians sucks" din started right around the same time in '07, to the day, literally (as I and others predicted when Haley got hired and were roundly ridiculed and bashed for saying so):

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=22255

You know, I even did a search and didn't find that thread! Hilarious. Also found it hilarious that Steeldude was actually in that thread supporting the dislike for Arians.

[tube517]

There's a very simple reason why. THEY CAN'T. It's not even close. Ben's ability to pump fake to help his receivers get open is almost unprecedented in the NFL and it absolutely drives DC's mad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/sports/football/21fake.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[43Hitman]

Ben has played 9 years. As stated it will work sometimes and we have benifitted from it but he has been unsuccessful with it much more. Did you see the sacks that took us out of FG range in the 4th quarter? Throw the ball away and we set up Suisham. If its such a good thing then why dont Qb coaches teach it???? I just named almost 10 Hall of Fame quarterbacks who do not do the ridiculous pump fakes. Ther is a reason. Why do you guys get so defensive when someone crticizes Ben?

From the article that Tube posted:


"The pump fake has been around since the invention of the forward pass, a bit of shoulder-based subterfuge designed to freeze rushers in their tracks or convince deep defenders that the pass is going one way, leaving the intended target wide open. In a league in which offenses often do not even pretend to be considering a run — witness the proliferation of spread formations — the pump fake creates a moment of doubt in the defense."

"In his seven seasons, Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/r/ben_roethlisberger/index.html?inline=nyt-per) has elevated it to an art form, winding up, pretending to throw, pulling his arm back and reloading so often that it looks as if someone is hitting the fast forward and rewind buttons while watching game tape. Roethlisberger uses the pump fake more than any other current quarterback except perhaps Peyton Manning (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/peyton_manning/index.html?inline=nyt-per)."

You certainly seem to be in the minority here, while it may not be obvious to you, it sure is to the rest of us. Ben and his pump fakes do nothing but help this team. Why you would pick this out to complain about when there are so many other issues with this team is beyond me.

[LLT]

Not at all but I have participated and been to a many of quarterback camp and have never seen the pump fake taught that way. If you have some footage I would be glad to see it and readily admit I was wrong. I agree every qb has their own style but dont you think its odd that only ONE quarterback in the history of the NFL uses the pump fake in that manner?

Well.....


In one game in 2009, The Pittsburgh Tribune Review counted 17 pump fakes in 43 pass attempts. After fakes, he completed 12 of 17 pass attempts for 195 yards and a touchdown, according to The Tribune Review’s tally. When he did not use a pump fake on the other 26 attempts, he threw for 168 yards, no touchdowns and was intercepted twice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/sports/football/21fake.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[zulater]

• Nobody pump-fakes better than Roethlisberger, and he showed that against the Cowboys. He pump-faked 10 times and completed six passes for 130 yards, including the 30-yard touchdown pass to Miller and a 60-yard pass to Wallace that set up a Jonathan Dwyer touchdown run.

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/3147139-74/yards-miller-roethlisberger#ixzz2FP3zli9c
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

It's part of Ben's game. I don't think there's a coach in the league that would try to take that out of his arsenal.

[Butch]

Tammy Maddox seriously? Didnt he sell insurance? OF COURSE Ben is better than Maddox. Maddox is a mere backup. In Cards Super Bowl that defense provided Ben with a 20-7 lead and a TOUCHDOWN. Point is Ben has no Super Bowl MVP's you know the award that goes to the guy who was the primary reason for the win? I would rather have Ben that ANY quarterback in the league because he is the most gifted quarterback in the NFL. Who is tougher? Who is stronger? Who can extend the play longer? Ben has more physical attributes than any QB in history. That doesnt concern me. What concerns me about Ben Roethlisberger is his decision making. He has got to take his game to the next level and get the mental aspect down. You cannot take senseless sacks that take your team out of FG range. You cannot throw a 20 yard out late when the receiver has bracket coverage. Thats why I like Haley. He can teach Ben to be patient in the pocket and take what the defense gives you. I'll say it again. Those games that Ben played early this season was some of the best quarterbacking I have ever seen in Pittsburgh. But when he came back he reverted to old Ben.

You make me laugh, you say you wouldn't want any other QB but Ben and yet you seem to feel there are a dozen others who are better including shady brady. I have to ask who would you really rather have tom or Ben??? Could Ben be better...maybe maybe not I don't know, but I'll take him and all his flaws over any other QB that's just me. I admire his toughness and his will to win. BTW how many game winning touchdowns has shady brady had in a Superbowl???

Who gives a rats ass if Ben didn't win the superbowl MVP neither did Stallworth but I could make an argument for both of them. Does that mean Stallworth wasn't a great WR???

BTW how does one touchdown before the 1/2 equal a 20-7 lead??? Also the D are the ones who gave up the touchdown that set up the dramatic game winning drive. You make the argument that Ben didn't win the superbowl that it was the team, but you also don't give him any credit for anything he does do right or point out that others on this team let down at times as well.

In one sentence you say
" Who can extend a play longer?" and then in the very same post you say
"You cannot take a senseless sack that take your team out of FG range." Which is it, is he great for extending plays or is he damned because of it??? I have posted this many times on this board and I will post it again what make Ben horrible is what makes him GREAT. He holds onto the ball to long, and I for one am fine with that are you??? I hope you will at the very least make you stance on this clear, because I for one can't figure out where you stand.

[Butch]

I would like to see how the Arians haters are explaining the success Arians is having with a rookie.

As a card carrying member of the Bruce Arians haters club in good standing I give a rats ass what he does in Indy!!! Hell I don't care of he has great success there or not, I'm just glad he's outta here. I was tired of seeing that damn bubble screen and head scratching idiology like not targetting a player who comes in for an injured player or having a passing game plan against a team that was worst vs. the run. Yeah we may not have succeeded with the run but at least give it a shot especially when you are facing a stiff oncoming wind!!!

Also I have yet to blast Haley or praise him I'm still out on him. Guess not all who hated B.A. have been so quick to judge as some of you would like to believe. For you lovers of B.A. here's to him having a long tenure in Indy because I sure as hell don't want him back here!!!

[Steelreal]

The explanations I've seen bandied about are that the team is only playing inspired due to Pagano's cancer and that they've beaten a schedule of "creampuffs" (never mind that we've dropped 4 games to "creampuffs" ourselves)...

Interesting. Then how do they explain how well Arians was doing BEFORE Pagano was diagnosed with cancer with a rookie? Also, excellent objective post.

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• Nobody pump-fakes better than Roethlisberger, and he showed that against the Cowboys. He pump-faked 10 times and completed six passes for 130 yards, including the 30-yard touchdown pass to Miller and a 60-yard pass to Wallace that set up a Jonathan Dwyer touchdown run.

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/3147139-74/yards-miller-roethlisberger#ixzz2FP3zli9c
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

It's part of Ben's game. I don't think there's a coach in the league that would try to take that out of his arsenal.

You wont see him do it vs the Bengals guarantee Haley will put an end to it. Also, Ben was pump faking in the 4th while we were in FG range to win the game. Took a sack and took us out of FG range. We could have won the game. You like Old Ben. I prefer NEW BEN. The guy I seen in the MVP conversation early this year. Oh by the way Ben habitually loses to BAD teams. I wish he would get MEAN and have some killer instinct

[Steelreal]

You make me laugh, you say you wouldn't want any other QB but Ben and yet you seem to feel there are a dozen others who are better including shady brady. I have to ask who would you really rather have tom or Ben??? Could Ben be better...maybe maybe not I don't know, but I'll take him and all his flaws over any other QB that's just me. I admire his toughness and his will to win. BTW how many game winning touchdowns has shady brady had in a Superbowl???

Who gives a rats ass if Ben didn't win the superbowl MVP neither did Stallworth but I could make an argument for both of them. Does that mean Stallworth wasn't a great WR???

BTW how does one touchdown before the 1/2 equal a 20-7 lead??? Also the D are the ones who gave up the touchdown that set up the dramatic game winning drive. You make the argument that Ben didn't win the superbowl that it was the team, but you also don't give him any credit for anything he does do right or point out that others on this team let down at times as well.

In one sentence you sayand then in the very same post you say Which is it, is he great for extending plays or is he damned because of it??? I have posted this many times on this board and I will post it again what make Ben horrible is what makes him GREAT. He holds onto the ball to long, and I for one am fine with that are you??? I hope you will at the very least make you stance on this clear, because I for one can't figure out where you stand.

Brady IS Better than Ben. NO expert in the world would disagree. Only a biased Steeler fan. I'm a Steeler fan but I am not Biased. If you want to post Ben's resume against Toms then feel free you will find that Brady is way more accomplished.

If Brady is on the Steelers Ben is traded or on the Bench and we win like 40 in a row. Sorry, If you are behind when you have the BETTER team then that means you arent doing your job. Comeback wins are impressive in Cleveland (Bad team) not in the Steelers we are SUPERIOR and have no business being behind much. Santonio Holmes had ELITE stats for a Wr in SB 40 Ben did not have ELITE stats for a QB and thats why Tone won the MVP. Sabol called Tone catch the BEST in SB History. Why didnt he say the same about the pass? Because the catch and toe placement was far superior. Not to mention the 40 plus yards in YAC that Tone had on that drive.

I dont give Ben any credit for anything he does? You started your post off by saying "you say you wouldn't want any other QB but Ben". Are you confused? Just because I think that Brady, Manniing , Brees and Rodgers are better than Ben then that means I hate him? Sorry, its the truth. Do you think that Mendenhall is the best back in the league? How about Ike? How about Heath? How about Tomlin? etc. Im sure you dont think that the aformentioned guys are the best at what they do but does that mean you give them no credit? Thats silly.

Where I stand? Ben is not perfect. I like Ben however, I dont make excuses for everything Ben does wrong. I hold him accountable just like Haley does and thats why he is a good hire. Tomlin, Arians etc are like you guys "Ben does no wrong". Guys like Haley, Cowher and Wiz ride Ben and push him to be better and Ben hates it. But it makes the Steelers better so Im on board. FYI we have lost FIVE games with Ben this year and only ONE of those teams were good (Denver). He has a QB rating of 88 in those 5 losses. Wallace has underachieved, Brown and Sanders but as I have proved, so has Ben.

Where I stand? Ben can be better. He is good and needs to play like it CONSISTENTLY, ala Brady.

[Count Steeler]

Brady would not be alive if he had to take the punishment that has been laid on Ben. Ben is a winner just for surviving our O Line for all these years.

[Butch]

My bad I guess I wasn't clear on my question about where you stand. You praise him in your earlier post by saying Who can extend a play better. then in the same reply you chastize him for You cannot take a senseless sack when your team is in field goal range. Is he Great for extending plays or is he bad??? In other words do you want him to hold onto the ball or not??? I am fine with it because as much as it gets him in trouble it also wins us games. And so that you know where I stand and as I stated before what makes him bad is also what makes him Great, I'll take him holding onto the ball because it's what Ben does and I'm fine with it.


I love how you rely on experts to validate your points do you ever state something based on faith??? I have faith in Ben I give a shit what his stats look like when compared to other QB's. As the Great Chuck Noll once said "Stats are for losers"!!! The so called experts are the same ones who thought we had a great draft when we took Mendy, and Sweed and thought we had an epic fail when we got Swan, Lambert, Stallworth and Webster. I don't rely on experts or their opinions. I'll take Ben over shady Brady would you??? I also would take Hines over moss or owens, but because their stats are better I'm guessing you would not. Love you stats guys.

I love how if we win it's the team, but if we lose it's Ben not the team. How bout that browns game this year was that Ben too? Who had the better team??? Ben is responsible for all the fumbles to right???

As for Tone what happened when Ben gave him a perfect pass in the other corner of the endzone just one play before his game winning catch??? That's right he let it go right between his fingers. How bout that game winning pass could that have been thrown to a better spot??? Ben threw it past 3 defenders and put it in the only spot it could be thrown and still caught by Santonio. It was a great catch by Santonio, but how bout that non catch just one play before??? How bout that pump fake that got us down in scoring position??? A classic if I have ever seen one. Sabol did say it was the best catch ever I wouldn't argue with him, but if the pass isn't perfectly thrown it is either knocked down or intercepted. Look at it for yourself and let me know if you think I'm off base. Don't let some expert tell you what happened see it for yourself.

No I don't think that because you say there are other qb's better than Ben that you hate Ben rather that you would rather have someone other than Ben leading this team. I'm sure you would rather have moss or owens over Hines not that you hate Hines, but you seem to base your opinion on stats and experts and those two have both over Hines.

When I say you give Ben no credit I am referring to the game winning drive in the Superbowl or that he should never be behind in a game because we have the better team, not because you are critical of him.

Oh and to answer my own question shady brady never lead a superbowl winning touchdown drive he won because of a kicker. All of shady brady's wins were by less than a touchdown shouldn't he have won by more than that since he is so much better of a qb???

[Steelreal]

There's a very simple reason why. THEY CAN'T. It's not even close. Ben's ability to pump fake to help his receivers get open is almost unprecedented in the NFL and it absolutely drives DC's mad.

He pump fakes to buy time vs a zone. A pump fake doesnt help receivers get open. Why he was pumping like a lunatic Wallace had FIVE steps on two defenders. Ben had to bring the ball back up and reload and then throw. By then it was too late. The underthrown ball made Wallace stop, wave his hand like he was fair catching a punt and then catch the pass. Im sure Ryan was mad about that missed TD opportunity (enter sarcasm)

[Steelreal]

My bad I guess I wasn't clear on my question about where you stand. You praise him in your earlier post by saying Who can extend a play better. then in the same reply you chastize him for You cannot take a senseless sack when your team is in field goal range. Is he Great for extending plays or is he bad??? In other words do you want him to hold onto the ball or not??? I am fine with it because as much as it gets him in trouble it also wins us games. And so that you know where I stand and as I stated before what makes him bad is also what makes him Great, I'll take him holding onto the ball because it's what Ben does and I'm fine with it.


I love how you rely on experts to validate your points do you ever state something based on faith??? I have faith in Ben I give a shit what his stats look like when compared to other QB's. As the Great Chuck Noll once said "Stats are for losers"!!! The so called experts are the same ones who thought we had a great draft when we took Mendy, and Sweed and thought we had an epic fail when we got Swan, Lambert, Stallworth and Webster. I don't rely on experts or their opinions. I'll take Ben over shady Brady would you??? I also would take Hines over moss or owens, but because their stats are better I'm guessing you would not. Love you stats guys.

I love how if we win it's the team, but if we lose it's Ben not the team. How bout that browns game this year was that Ben too? Who had the better team??? Ben is responsible for all the fumbles to right???

As for Tone what happened when Ben gave him a perfect pass in the other corner of the endzone just one play before his game winning catch??? That's right he let it go right between his fingers. How bout that game winning pass could that have been thrown to a better spot??? Ben threw it past 3 defenders and put it in the only spot it could be thrown and still caught by Santonio. It was a great catch by Santonio, but how bout that non catch just one play before??? How bout that pump fake that got us down in scoring position??? A classic if I have ever seen one. Sabol did say it was the best catch ever I wouldn't argue with him, but if the pass isn't perfectly thrown it is either knocked down or intercepted. Look at it for yourself and let me know if you think I'm off base. Don't let some expert tell you what happened see it for yourself.

No I don't think that because you say there are other qb's better than Ben that you hate Ben rather that you would rather have someone other than Ben leading this team. I'm sure you would rather have moss or owens over Hines not that you hate Hines, but you seem to base your opinion on stats and experts and those two have both over Hines.

When I say you give Ben no credit I am referring to the game winning drive in the Superbowl or that he should never be behind in a game because we have the better team, not because you are critical of him.

Oh and to answer my own question shady brady never lead a superbowl winning touchdown drive he won because of a kicker. All of shady brady's wins were by less than a touchdown shouldn't he have won by more than that since he is so much better of a qb???


I was clear I do not. I want him to be a student of the game like Manning and Brady. He would take less hits if he new how to make accurate pre snap reads. Manning doesnt take a lot of sacks due to great pre snap reads. He knows where he is going to throw it before he snaps the ball. I said I prefer NEW BEN, how is that not clear? That running around, draw it up in the dirt guy is inconsistent. What will he do when he gets old and not as mobile? You see Brady, Peyton and the guys who play with their minds, can play longer due to less wear and tear (sacks).

You said as much as it gets him in trouble it equally win us games? Really? Ben took a sack LATE in the Dallas game and took us out of FG range. No other Qb has been sacked as much as Ben Roethlisber in the last 7 years. Do you know how many negative plays that is for SEVEN YEARS? You mean Ben has made over 100 hundred clutch plays in his career? I wholeheartedly disagree. You are fine with Ben holding onto the ball so you are fine with injuries. Ok well so be it. When Ben gets older, what will he do then? How will he extend the play then? Dont you think its better to teach him to play smarter as Haley is trying to do? Again, I'll take new Ben.

Faith? I have faith in GOD. I rely on Ben to make the plays. Whens the last time Ben has brought us back in clutch fashion? Green Bay of 09? Long time dont you think? Meanwhile we are losing to the Titans, Raiders etc with our Franchise Quarterback. I dont see any inferior teams habitually beating Brady, Manning and Rodgers. Did you see what Brady did to Tebow twice? Tebow Beat Ben. I wanted to hide in shame after that loss. Ben was hurt, Ike sucked, The Oline, Ben was hurt, Arians. Blame anyone you like, make any excuse. The fact is that we lost to a horrible Qb. Its ironic that never happens consitently to those guys.

What experts said that we had a great draft with Mendy and Sweed? What experts said we had a bad one with Swann and Stallworth? Who were they? Names please. No, I wouldnt take Ben over Brady. We would win 40 staright with Brady. Brady would put up 40 pts a game with our receivers. Did you see what he did with Moss and Welker? He'd do the same with CMC and with a weapon like Mendenhall. We would be unstoppable.

You see Ben is physically GIFTED. Even more than Brady. Where they differ is Brady is more consistent. Brady has killer instinct he goes for the jugular. Ben does not and thats why we seldom blow any teams out. 4 forty point games in 9 years? Come on bro we are the Steelers.

Ben threw into TRIPLE coverage. You just gave an example of a bad decision gone good. In fact Ben said "I THOUGHT I THREW A PICK AND LOST THE GAME" . Slight different than your account. I wont slam Ben, I loved the pass. It was a accurate pin point clutch pass but he was fortunate not to have it picked. However, the catch and toe placement was more impressive.

Oh a pump fake got us down in scoring position? I thought it was a TONE JUKE that made the Db miss and he ran inside the 10. Bens fake to Mewelde wasnt needed. 1. If he passed to Mewelde it would have been a short gain so who bought the fake? 2. Tone already had sat down in the hole of the zone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAfwo_K2BNM

If you dont thik Ben can be better then that is your opinion. I think he can be. I think he can be the best in the league. But if he is surrounded by people like you and Mike Tomlin who tell him his crap doesnt stink then he will never think he has to improve.

[Steelreal]

Brady would not be alive if he had to take the punishment that has been laid on Ben. Ben is a winner just for surviving our O Line for all these years.

With all due respect Ben Roethlisberger took a sack in the 2007 Pro Bowl with a no blitz rule. That line was ALL PRO. A smart qb can make a bad line look good by merely making accurate pre snap reads. The Colts line was AWESOME until Peyton Manning got hurt, then how was it? Horrible.

Tom Brady was sacked in the teens in 07. He got hurt in 08 and Cassel was sacked 46 times. SAME LINE as Brady was under. Brady has never been sacked that much in a season. Not even close. What this tells you is that is you make accurate sight adjustments in your pre snap reads, process the information quickly and get the ball out you wont have to worry abou the line. Its not the LINE. Its the MIND.

Do you think the Eagles line is that bad? I dont. The problem is Vick. He is slow to process the information. Same line The rookie is behind. Foles processes the info quicker and gets the ball out quickly. JUST like Ben was doing early in the season. The last 2 weeks he went back to Old Ben and you see the results.

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Joking on the sack

[Butch]

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_621310.html#axzz2FS2FFdvV

Here's a link for ya' on the '74 draft, enjoy reading what the experts thought. You don't believe me about the Sweed, Mendy draft look it up they gave us some pretty good draft scores for the players we got. I aint lookin' that one up you can do it if you please. Guess I'm lazy L.O.L.

So by your very own words you give credit to Ben for extending plays even though it's something you don't like. Yep that's a perfect contradiction if I have ever seen one.

New Ben old Ben it's just Ben if he changes so be it, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you. He does what he does and he's been successful doing it, yeah I'm fine with it and I love when he does it. Better to burn out than fade away no matter what he does he can't play forever. I'm sure if Hines had not taken as many hits he would still be playing too. "Damn the torpedo's...Full steam ahead!!!"

Don't go putting words in my mouth "You said as much as it gets him in trouble it equally win us games?" Never said it equally wins us games what I said was what makes him bad is what makes him Great...big difference there. If you are going to quote me then quote me, but don't put your own twist on what I'm saying. While we're at it where did that 100 clutch plays thing come from??? I know I didn't say it!!! Seems that is something you pulled fresh outta your ass. Sure as hell smells like it as well. Is that 100 clutch plays some sort of stat you are trying to pass off???

So Tebow beat Ben and here I thought it was the D that gave up the game wining TD in overtime when nobody could tackle. Again when we win it's team when we lose it's Ben, yet you're not a Ben hater...ok.

Ok so you didn't answer my 1st question about shady brady and game winning touchdowns let's see if you will answer this one. How has shady brady faired in superbowls since spygate??? How bout Ben??? I can hear the excuses now. L.O.L.

So with shady brady we would win 40 straight??? Really??? Ok if you say so I guess it must be true or at least I'm sure you would be more than willing to prove it with some sort of obscure stats.

Was the pass on target or not??? I never gave any account just stated that it was put where it needed to be. Did he put it where it needed to be??? Was the better pass dropped just one play before??? Yeah Santonio was always clutch wasn't he??? Don't get me wrong I loved when Santonio played for us wish he still was, but he had his bonehead moments as well. Admit it or not Santonio can't make the catch if Ben doesn't put the pass on the money (even if he didn't think it was on the mark when he let it go).

If you watch the game you will see that the pump fake brought the defender up and then while he was trying to get back to cover Santonio he slipped and Santonio made him pay.