Poor fundamentals= Poor coaching?

[zulater]

Here you are with a back up qb playing. As a coaching staff don't you have to stress fundamentals to the team leading up to the game? Instead we commit turnovers, penalties galore, and lose the special teams battle. :der:

You tell me how this doesn't reflect poorly on the coaching?

[polamalubeast]

The Steelers had not many turnovers in offense before the latest games

The penalties have never been a problem before this year

[zulater]

The Steelers had not many turnovers in offense before the latest games

The penalties have never been a problem before this year

Did we lose the turnover battle last week? Are we losing it today?

Are we not the most penalized team n the league?

Are our special teams ranked near the bottom?

Yes, yes, and yes.

[Count Steeler]

Special teams is still a head scratcher.

Yes, fundamentals are a coaching problem. Time to get back to basics.

[st33lersguy]

Mike Momlin has done such a horrible job this year as the Pittsburgh Holders' head coach

[SCSTILLER]

Mike Momlin has done such a horrible job this year as the Pittsburgh Holders' head coach

I completely agree. It seems like every other pass completion a yellow flag for holding is thrown on the Steelers. We beat ourselves more than other teams beat us!

[Edman]

Today is simply a reflection of poor coaching. Nothing else.

Starting a 3rd string QB is one thing, but to not get the rest of the team well-prepared is another. The RB's started fumbling and it just snowballed from there. Now the Offense is in No-Mans Land.

[X-Terminator]

Mike Momlin has done such a horrible job this year as the Pittsburgh Holders' head coach

Fine, let's fire him then, if for no other reason than that I won't have to read that stupid fucking nickname on every fucking post.

[zulater]

Today is simply a reflection of poor coaching. Nothing else.

I get that we might not have the best back up qb's in the league. But ask yourself this. If the Steelers had an average starting qb instead of one of the best in the league, how good ( or bad) would this team be?

[fansince'76]

Fine, let's fire him then, if for no other reason than that I won't have to read that stupid fucking nickname on every fucking post.

This.

[Seven]

Fine, let's fire him then, if for no other reason than that I won't have to read that stupid fucking nickname on every fucking post.

I'm actually laughing out loud at this haha

[steelpride12]

Today is simply a reflection of poor coaching. Nothing else.

Starting a 3rd string QB is one thing, but to not get the rest of the team well-prepared is another. The RB's started fumbling and it just snowballed from there. Now the Offense is in No-Mans Land.
Dude, shut the fuck up with "Momlin" It's been old since the first time you said you. Your argument is also sad.

[zulater]

Why do we never try to block the punt?

[BlastFurnace]

Fine, let's fire him then, if for no other reason than that I won't have to read that stupid fucking nickname on every fucking post.

You can't deny that this team is never prepared against bad teams. Every year with Tomlin, it's the same thing over and over again.

Truth of the matter is, Ben is the only reason Tomlin has a winning record as a HC.

[zulater]

If Mike Tomlin didn't have Big Ben, would he be a good coach?

I just don't know. This team is so fundamentally out of whack it drives you batty! :frusty:

I don't know if we'd go 5-11 with a qb of Flacco's quality.

[SCSTILLER]

I understand the 3rd string QB thing, but when every running back fumbles, and one of them twice, a WR who drops everything that comes his way, and offensive linemen think that a good block means grabbling ahold of a jersy, then there is poor coaching plain and simple! The poor coaching starts with the top dog, Mike Tomlin.

[polamalubeast]

If Mike Tomlin didn't have Big Ben, would he be a good coach?

I just don't know. This team is so fundamentally out of whack it drives you batty!

I don't know if we'd go 5-11 with a qb of Flacco's quality.

OVERREACTION


since 2007,the steelers are 4-4 without Ben...Not bad

Look at the record of Bill Belichik without Tom Brady.....

Every coach look bad with a bad QB

[X-Terminator]

You can't deny that this team is never prepared against bad teams. Every year with Tomlin, it's the same thing over and over again.

Truth of the matter is, Ben is the only reason Tomlin has a winning record as a HC.

Yeah, and they had the same problem when Bill Cowher was HC. And just like now, fickle ass fans were calling for his head.

Sure, let's go ahead and be like other franchises and fire HCs like they change their underwear. That'll fix everything! :rolleyes:

[Seven]

Yeah, and they had the same problem when Bill Cowher was HC. And just like now, fickle ass fans were calling for his head.

Sure, let's go ahead and be like other franchises and fire HCs like they change their underwear. That'll fix everything! :rolleyes:

The sky will be falling for about a week or so. The reasonable fans will put our heads down and push through the bullshit like we always do after a bad loss.

[zulater]

OVERREACTION


since 2007,the steelers are 4-4 without Ben...Not bad

Look at the record of Bill Belichik without Tom Brady.....

Every coach look bad with a bad QB

The difference being Bellichick went 11-5 without Brady. And more to the point he had an adequete back up.

I guess the position of the Tomlin defense is that he has no say in the make up of the roster and couldn't have done more to get a NFL worthy back up?

- - - Updated - - -


The sky will be falling for about a week or so. The reasonable fans will put our heads down and push through the bullshit like we always do after a bad loss.

Why is it unreasonable to point out that this team is fundamentally flawed, and even with Ben this team commits too many unforced errors to be elite?

[Steeldude]

I thought fundamentals weren't important.

As for Tomlin, it's not just fundamentals, it's why is Batch on the roster if you don't trust him to pass over 5 yards? If Batch is viewed to be that poor of a passer then he shouldn't be taking up a roster spot. The same goes for Leftwich.

Also, why are you punishing the team by benching your first 3 RBs in favor of a player who barely weighs 180? I understand they each fumbled, but it does nothing to bench all of your RBs. Dwyer was the only RB who was actually hit in such a way that it was difficult to hold onto the ball. I know there is never an excuse for a fumble and I do agree with sending a player to the bench, but not all 3 RBs.

[X-Terminator]

Why is it unreasonable to point out that this team is fundamentally flawed, and even with Ben this team commits too many unforced errors to be elite?

Because you know what the next step is. And I personally do not want to read that overreactive bullshit all week long.

[polamalubeast]

Zulater

Belichek has a losing record in his career without Brady

this is completely pathetic your overreaction since the steelers not make mistakes like this very often

[Seven]

The difference being Bellichick went 11-5 without Brady. And more to the point he had an adequete back up.

I guess the position of the Tomlin defense is that he has no say in the make up of the roster and couldn't have done more to get a NFL worthy back up?

- - - Updated - - -



Why is it unreasonable to point out that this team is fundamentally flawed, and even with Ben this team commits too many unforced errors to be elite?

Sorry, I'm too busy responding to the twelve other overreaction threads to address this :chuckle:

[BlastFurnace]

Yeah, and they had the same problem when Bill Cowher was HC. And just like now, fickle ass fans were calling for his head.

Sure, let's go ahead and be like other franchises and fire HCs like they change their underwear. That'll fix everything! :rolleyes:

This is Ben's team. Not Tomlin's, not LeBeau's, not Troy's, not anyone else's. It's Ben's team.

[zulater]

I thought fundamentals weren't important.

As for Tomlin, it's not just fundamentals, it's why is Batch on the roster if you don't trust him to pass over 5 yards? If Batch is viewed to be that poor of a passer then he shouldn't be taking up a roster spot. The same goes for Leftwich.

Also, why are you punishing the team by benching your first 3 RBs in favor of a player who barely weighs 180? I understand they each fumbled, but it does nothing to bench all of your RBs. Dwyer was the only RB who was actually hit in such a way that it was difficult to hold onto the ball. I know there is never an excuse for a fumble and I do agree with sending a player to the bench, but not all 3 RBs.

Yeah it smacks of Romeo Crennell benching a player after every fumble.

And hell if the new standard is that mental errors wont be tolerated and will be punished by lack of playing time, then why is Wallace even active on game days

- - - Updated - - -


This is Ben's team. Not Tomlin's, not LeBeau's, not Troy's, not anyone else's. It's Ben's team.

QFT. :nod:

- - - Updated - - -


Zulater

Belichek has a losing record in his career without Brady

this is completely pathetic your overreaction since the steelers not make mistakes like this very often

Most of that was with the Browns. Who's the last coach to have a winning record on that team?

[polamalubeast]

This is Ben's team. Not Tomlin's, not LeBeau's, not Troy's, not anyone else's. It's Ben's team.

I did not know :sarcasm2:

- - - Updated - - -


Most of that was with the Browns. Who's the last coach to have a winning record on that team?

Brian Bellick,John Harbaugh

[steelerdude15]

Yeah, and they had the same problem when Bill Cowher was HC. And just like now, fickle ass fans were calling for his head.

Sure, let's go ahead and be like other franchises and fire HCs like they change their underwear. That'll fix everything! :rolleyes:

I was just about to say that.

[zulater]

I did not know :sarcasm2:

- - - Updated - - -




Brian Bellick,John Harbaugh

No. Different team. Changed cities, changed cultures.

[86WARD]

I get that we might not have the best back up qb's in the league. But ask yourself this. If the Steelers had an average starting qb instead of one of the best in the league, how good ( or bad) would this team be?

A competent back up (average) probably could've won last week and probably would've won today. To me an average/competent back up is one that can make throws, manage the game, not make the big mistake and come out .500 during his "tenure?"

- - - Updated - - -

There's definitely a "lazy attitude" and an undisciplined type of "play" happening and it's been happening for a little while now...

[polamalubeast]

No. Different team. Changed cities, changed cultures.

I don't care

The Browns in early 90's are now the ravens......The browns have made the AFC title game in 1986,1987 and 1989.....

[zulater]

A competent back up (average) probably could've won last week and probably would've won today. To me an average/competent back up is one that can make throws, manage the game, not make the big mistake and come out .500 during his "tenure?"

- - - Updated - - -

There's definitely a "lazy attitude" and an undisciplined type of "play" happening and it's been happening for a little while now...

Would an average back up have eliminated all the drive killing holds the line commited, the fumbles the rb's coughed up, the red zone first down turned fumble that slid out of Mike wallace's hands? Would it have given us better field position?

I don't know, it's easy to blame Batch. But also lazy imo. The problems go much deeper. This team lacks sound fundamentals and that applies to virtually every unit.

[86WARD]

Would an average back up have eliminated all the drive killing holds the line commited, the fumbles the rb's coughed up, the red zone first down turned fumble that slid out of Mike wallace's hands? Would it have given us better field position?

I don't know, it's easy to blame Batch. But also lazy imo. The problems go much deeper. This team lacks sound fundamentals and that applies to virtually every unit.

Not sure...but I feel like a competent back up could've completed a lot of the passes that Batch just physically could not...and if that happened, it could've been a different game. I'm not solely blaming Batch, but he pretty much performed like I've been saying he would. He's not a competent NFL QB.

I don't know if they lack the fundamentals (maybe Mendenhall - the way he holds the ball,) but they played "lazy" and very undisciplined IMO. I feel like they lack a sense of urgency and it's been happening a lot in the past few seasons.

[Craic]

Not sure...but I feel like a competent back up could've completed a lot of the passes that Batch just physically could not...and if that happened, it could've been a different game. I'm not solely blaming Batch, but he pretty much performed like I've been saying he would. He's not a competent NFL QB.

My thoughts exactly. Whatever he had, age has caught up with him. It's time to let it go.

[Shoes]

>snip<


Also, why are you punishing the team by benching your first 3 RBs in favor of a player who barely weighs 180? I understand they each fumbled, but it does nothing to bench all of your RBs. Dwyer was the only RB who was actually hit in such a way that it was difficult to hold onto the ball. I know there is never an excuse for a fumble and I do agree with sending a player to the bench, but not all 3 RBs.

I found this move a bit odd myself....tho I understand why Tomlin did it. But you can't expect your 180 lb RB to carry the load.....I hope Rainey is ok.

[Dwinsgames]

Fine, let's fire him then, if for no other reason than that I won't have to read that stupid fucking nickname on every fucking post.


ding ding ding !!!

we have a winner

[polamalubeast]

I reminds me that many wanted Lebeau retires after the game against the raiders

Tomlin is a very good coach and bad games, it happens to everyone, including the coaches

[Dwinsgames]

I reminds me that many wanted Lebeau retires after the game against the raiders

Tomlin is a very good coach and bad games, it happens to everyone, including the coaches


my comment was based on being sick of the stupid nickname over and over ...

[Craic]

Mike Momlin has done such a horrible job this year as the Pittsburgh Holders' head coach


Fine, let's fire him then, if for no other reason than that I won't have to read that stupid fucking nickname on every fucking post.


This.


I'm actually laughing out loud at this haha


Dude, shut the fuck up with "Momlin" It's been old since the first time you said you. Your argument is also sad.


ding ding ding !!!

we have a winner

This has to be the best part of this thread . . .

[Dwinsgames]

This has to be the best part of this thread . . .


at this rate the end of this particular thread will be the best part ..... just like todays game the best part was when the clock expired , I then did not have to worry about yet another turnover or another injury....

sometimes living to fight another day is a victory in itself

[zulater]

I reminds me that many wanted Lebeau retires after the game against the raiders

Tomlin is a very good coach and bad games, it happens to everyone, including the coaches

Not just one bad game. We lost to the Raiders, Titans, and Browns already this season. Take away the Steelers wins and they have a combined record of 7-23.

Should a "great coach" lose that often to inferior teams? We also were gifted a win over the 1-10 Chiefs.

Anyway instead of calling him Momlin, I think a better nickname is Teflon Tomlin. Because nothing seems to ever stick to him.

Commit more penalties than anyone else in the league? Not Tomlin's fault.

Fire the special teams coach the week before the season and watch last year's assett become this year's liability? Doesn't stick to the Teflon Don.

Have inadequete depth at qb? Nothing to do with the head coach apparently.

I wont annoy everyone and belabor the name. But Teflon Tomlin is a perfect fit in my opinion.

[X-Terminator]

Not just one bad game. We lost to the Raiders, Titans, and Browns already this season. Take away the Steelers wins and they have a combined record of 7-23.

Should a "great coach" lose that often to inferior teams? We also were gifted a win over the 1-10 Chiefs.

Anyway instead of calling him Momlin, I think a better nickname is Teflon Tomlin. Because nothing seems to ever stick to him.

Commit more penalties than anyone else in the league? Not Tomlin's fault.

Fire the special teams coach the week before the season and watch last year's assett become this year's liability? Doesn't stick to the Teflon Don.

Have inadequete depth at qb? Nothing to do with the head coach apparently.

I wont annoy everyone and belabor the name. But Teflon Tomlin is a perfect fit in my opinion.

Uh, yeah. You haven't a clue as to how many detractors he has had since the day he was hired. And you can bet your last dollar that there will be call after call tonight and tomorrow calling for him to be fired. Because apparently, that's all many Steelers fans know.

No, Tomlin is not perfect. But he's a damn sight better than most coaches in the league, and no one can deny that. Would you rather have Norv Turner or Jason Garrett coaching this team? How's Ken Whisenhunt been doing?

[Count Steeler]

I hope this game is a wake up call to get back to basics. Squeeze that football and review what constitutes holding, in every facet of the game.

[zulater]

Uh, yeah. You haven't a clue as to how many detractors he has had since the day he was hired. And you can bet your last dollar that there will be call after call tonight and tomorrow calling for him to be fired. Because apparently, that's all many Steelers fans know.

No, Tomlin is not perfect. But he's a damn sight better than most coaches in the league, and no one can deny that. Would you rather have Norv Turner or Jason Garrett coaching this team? How's Ken Whisenhunt been doing?

Give Whisenhunt Ben, and probably better than Tomlin.

[X-Terminator]

Speaking of holding, is anyone going to start pointing fingers at Kugler for that problem with the OL? Regardless, I wouldn't place too much emphasis on all the holding calls today because as I mentioned in the game thread, Ron Winters' crew has a history of calling a lot of penalties, especially holding. No matter how close or how ticky-tack it is, the yellow hanky is coming out when he is calling the games. I bet you Pat Shurmur isn't too happy about all the holds called against his OL too.

[X-Terminator]

Give Whisenhunt Ben, and probably better than Tomlin.

Fine. Let's fire him then (since that obviously is what you want), and hire Whiz after the season, and we'll find out for sure.

[polamalubeast]

Penalty during the play is not the fault of the coaches

Of course, if the penalty before or after the play, this is the fault of the coach.....also, the penalties have never been a problem before this year

Tomlin is not perfect, but he is not an idiot

[polamalubeast]

Give Whisenhunt Ben, and probably better than Tomlin.

Of course, 3 seasons of 12-4 and 2 participations in super bowl is very bad

Tomlin is the same coach who has been to the super bowl 2 times

[X-Terminator]

Of course, 3 seasons of 12-4 and 2 participations in super bowl is very bad

Tomlin is the same coach who has been to the super bowl 2 times

Remember, he did that with "Cowher's players," so it doesn't count. He also won the SB in 2008-09 after having the toughest schedule in NFL history, but again...doesn't count. He should instead be fired immediately.

[zulater]

Fine. Let's fire him then (since that obviously is what you want), and hire Whiz after the season, and we'll find out for sure.

It would be fine with me. Personally I think Whiz is a decent coach stuck with a hideously bad qb situation. If he's given time to correct it he'll be contending for that divsion every year.

But we know it will never happen. The Steelers don't ever fire a coach, and that's fine by me too. And I'm not saying Tomlin should be fired. But he should be held accountable and this team needs more than cool sound bites from him. When Ben returns this team needs to stop shooting itself in the damn foot so often!

I've never seen a team with this many quality players so hell bent on self destruction week after week! :frusty:

Look, I get it Tomlin's going nowhere. Again I'm not asking for his firing.( find an example where anyone here has in fact?) I just want him to do a better job, and also to have the freedom not to be called a reactionary idiot for pointing out that he might not be doing such a great job when it's fairly obvious the Steelers are so fundamentally flawed in their play!

Too much to ask? :frusty:

[Count Steeler]

Tomlin was able to rally us from 2-3. Injuries have certainly been a HUGE factor this year.

While not making excuses for the fumbles and the holding calls, I can't think of another coach I would want on our team right now. Tomlin can score A's as well as D's. He certainly deserves a little more respect than to call for his firing after a bad game. If all of our players were healthy this year, no way we are sitting at 6-5.

[zulater]

Remember, he did that with "Cowher's players," so it doesn't count. He also won the SB in 2008-09 after having the toughest schedule in NFL history, but again...doesn't count. He should instead be fired immediately.

http://b1969d.medialib.glogster.com/media/1a75618476315e2ba82b65a84e357b51b31dddcb24e1e95296 9712a67d3a2200/strawman-1.png

[polamalubeast]

I never judge a team, players and coaches after a bad game or a bad season

The overreaction is ridiculous

I reminds me of the overreaction of the season of Roethlisberger in 2006.....Or in New York, how many times they wanted coughlin be fired?!

And several in this forum wanted Lebeau retires after the game against the raiders!!:frusty:

[Steeldude]

There's definitely a "lazy attitude" and an undisciplined type of "play" happening and it's been happening for a little while now...

Wallace is a prime example of it again.

[Craic]

Not just one bad game. We lost to the Raiders, Titans, and Browns already this season. Take away the Steelers wins and they have a combined record of 7-23.

Should a "great coach" lose that often to inferior teams? We also were gifted a win over the 1-10 Chiefs.

Anyway instead of calling him Momlin, I think a better nickname is Teflon Tomlin. Because nothing seems to ever stick to him.

Commit more penalties than anyone else in the league? Not Tomlin's fault.

Fire the special teams coach the week before the season and watch last year's assett become this year's liability? Doesn't stick to the Teflon Don.

Have inadequete depth at qb? Nothing to do with the head coach apparently.

I wont annoy everyone and belabor the name. But Teflon Tomlin is a perfect fit in my opinion.

Just in case we don't remember, Let's look at Cowher's playoff teams and how many times they lost to teams with a losing record:

1992

Chicago Bears 5-11.
Cleveland Browns 7-9.

1993

LA Rams - 5-11
Cleveland Browns 7-9
Seattle Seahawks 6-10

1994
Seattle Seahawks 6-10
Arizona Cardinals 8-8

1995

Minnesota Vikings 8-8
Jax Jaguars 4-12

1996

Houston Oilers 8-8
Cincinnati Bengals 8-8
Baltimore Ravens 4-12

2001 (only three losses this year)

Jax Jaguars 6-10
Cincinatti Bengals 6-10

2002

Houston Texans 4-12 (expansion team!)

2005

Baltimore Ravens 6-10


Now - this year

Raiders - 3-7
Titans 4-6 (may end up with winning record).
Browns 2-8 (Missing Ben).


Comparison - Pats*

2011 (3 loss season)
Bills 6-10

2010 (two loss season)

Browns 5-11

2009

Broncos 8-8
Dolphins 7-9

2006 (07 = 16-0, did not make 08 playoffs)
Dolphins 6-10

(Got bored and quit here).

My point however, is that good teams lose to bad teams. Both Cowher did it, and even the great and mighty Belicheat does it consistently every year. So railing on Tomlin for being the same as other NFL coaches is a bit unfair, don't you think?

[polamalubeast]

It would be fine with me. Personally I think Whiz is a decent coach stuck with a hideously bad qb situation. If he's given time to correct it he'll be contending for that divsion every year.

But we know it will never happen. The Steelers don't ever fire a coach, and that's fine by me too. And I'm not saying Tomlin should be fired. But he should be held accountable and this team needs more than cool sound bites from him. When Ben returns this team needs to stop shooting itself in the damn foot so often!

I've never seen a team with this many quality players so hell bent on self destruction week after week! :frusty:

Look, I get it Tomlin's going nowhere. I'm not asking for his firing. I just want him to do a better job, and also to have the freedom not to be called a reactionary idiot for pointing out that he might not be doing such a great job when it's fairly obvious the Steelers are so fundamentally flawed in their play!

Too much to ask? :frusty:



it was stupid when you say that the Steelers are 5-11 with Flacco!

Tomlin is 4-4 in his career without Roethlisberger and Flacco is much better than Batch, Leftwith and Dixon!!


And the offense did a good job to protect the ball this year before today

[Count Steeler]

it was stupid when you say that the Steelers are 5-11 with Flacco!

Tomlin is 4-4 in his career without Roethlisberger and Flacco is much better than Batch, Leftwith and Dixon!!


And the offense did a good job to protect the ball this year before today

Please keep it civil. You can disagree with a comment without calling it stupid.

[Dwinsgames]

it was stupid when you say that the Steelers are 5-11 with Flacco!

Tomlin is 4-4 in his career without Roethlisberger and Flacco is much better than Batch, Leftwith and Dixon!!


And the offense did a good job to protect the ball this year before today


Flacco was 3 points better than the Dixon led steelers , wheelchair bound Leftwich ... so not a good argument to be making

[X-Terminator]

http://b1969d.medialib.glogster.com/media/1a75618476315e2ba82b65a84e357b51b31dddcb24e1e95296 9712a67d3a2200/strawman-1.png

Not really. Again, you do not live in Pittsburgh, so you have no idea. And there have been members here who have said - without actually saying it - that they'd rather see Tomlin fired. Sometimes, perception is reality.


I never judge a team, players and coaches after a bad game or a bad season

The overreaction is ridiculous

I reminds me of the overreaction of the season of Roethlisberger in 2006.....Or in New York, how many times they wanted coughlin be fired?!

And several in this forum wanted Lebeau retires after the game against the raiders!!:frusty:

Hell, Giants fans wanted Coughlin fired last year and in 2007. Both years, they won the SB. I wouldn't be shocked if those same fans want Coughlin fired this season, and I'm sure it will get louder if they get pasted tonight by the Packers. But then again, that's New York. They do it because that's who they are. Steelers fans do it because they are spoiled rotten.

[polamalubeast]

I wanted to say that it was a stupid comment

I not wanted to say that zulater was stupid

[43Hitman]

If Mike Tomlin didn't have Big Ben, would he be a good coach?

I just don't know. This team is so fundamentally out of whack it drives you batty! :frusty:

I don't know if we'd go 5-11 with a qb of Flacco's quality.

There you go again freaking out. We lost because of a horrible back up qb that has no business being in the league. Not sure how its Tomilins fault that all three of our rb's fumbled and Botch threw 3 picks. But whatever. If it makes you guys feel better then run with it.

[86WARD]

There you go again freaking out. We lost because of a horrible back up qb that has no business being in the league. Not sure how its Tomilins fault that all three of our rb's fumbled and Botch threw 3 picks. But whatever. If it makes you guys feel better then run with it.

All FOUR RBs fumbled and dont forget Sanders. And as much as I agree that Batch had no business in the league, one of those INTs goes to Wallace...

[zulater]

Flacco was 3 points better than the Dixon led steelers , wheelchair bound Leftwich ... so not a good argument to be making

Watching Flacco this season, and living in Maryland believe me I see every Raven game, if he were the Steelers qb we would have lost every single road game with the possible exception of todays'. A Flacco led 2012 Steelers would end up no better than 8-8. And that's being generous.

[43Hitman]

All FOUR RBs fumbled and dont forget Sanders. And as much as I agree that Batch had no business in the league, one of those INTs goes to Wallace...

And somehow that's Tomlin's fault? My point still stands. And for the record I haven't been in Wallace's corner all year. The guy is overrated and not nearly worth what he is or isn't asking.

[Dwinsgames]

All FOUR RBs fumbled and dont forget Sanders. And as much as I agree that Batch had no business in the league, one of those INTs goes to Wallace...

Sanders fumbled ???

news to me

I must have been puking form some other screw up by someone ( who knows who the list is to long )

I had counted , Rainey 2 ( 1 out of bounds )
Mendy 2 we recovered 1
Redman 1
Dwyer 1

[Count Steeler]

Sanders fumbled ???

news to me

On NFL.com he is listed as 2 fumbles.

[polamalubeast]

Sanders fumbled ???

news to me

on the last play of the game,I think

[Count Steeler]

Fumbles FUM LOST REC YDS
R. Mendenhall 2 1 0 0
C. Rainey 2 1 0 0
E. Sanders 2 1 0 0
J. Dwyer 1 1 0 0
I. Redman 1 1 0 0
W. Johnson 0 0 1 0

From NFL.com

[Dwinsgames]

On NFL.com he is listed as 2 fumbles.


they are wrong , he never fumbled at all

Rainey had our last fumble


hmm they have him listed for 1 on my fantasy team stat card , I never seen it .... I still think they are wrong ( thats at nfl.com too ) they are wrong a ton

[zulater]

There you go again freaking out. We lost because of a horrible back up qb that has no business being in the league. Not sure how its Tomilins fault that all three of our rb's fumbled and Botch threw 3 picks. But whatever. If it makes you guys feel better then run with it.

Batch was bad. But so was everyone else on offense other than Heath Miller and Emanuel Sanders. Every time Charlie or Lefty did do something right there's an effing flag!

And we've got 20 yards to go for the first. :frusty:


When a team goes in with their back up qb the rest of team is supposed to pick up the slack.( it's what we did in 2010) For the most part the defense has done it's part the past two games. But poor special teams play, bad penalties, dropped passes, and fumbles galore have sabatoged any chance our back up qb's have had to help us win the last two weeks!

Instead of stepping up we keep stepping into it! :poop:

- - - Updated - - -


on the last play of the game,I think

Sanders fumbled a punt return out of bounds and the Steelers retained possession.

[Craic]

2011

0 losses to losing teams

2010

0 losses to losing teams

2009 (non playoff team)

Bears 7-9
KC Chiefs 4-12
Oakland Raiders 5-11
Browns 5-11

2008

0 losses to losing teams

2007

Cardinals 8-8 (facing old OC)
Broncos 7-9
Jets 4-12
Ravens 5-11 (Ben out - resting for playoffs if I remember right).
__________________________________________________ ____

Notice that in 3-6 seasons (including this year), his teams did not lose to losing teams. That's a better record than Cowher and Bellicheat. So tell me again, why he's such an awful coach? Look, we're struggling this season. We have injuries up the wazzu. It happens. Relax, ride it out, and enjoy the off season. Next year we'll get back to normal. Remember the two-on one-off cycle the Steelers have been in since the late 90's.

[zulater]

2011

0 losses to losing teams

2010

0 losses to losing teams

2009 (non playoff team)

Bears 7-9
KC Chiefs 4-12
Oakland Raiders 5-11
Browns 5-11

2008

0 losses to losing teams

2007

Cardinals 8-8 (facing old OC)
Broncos 7-9
Jets 4-12
Ravens 5-11 (Ben out - resting for playoffs if I remember right).
__________________________________________________ ____

Notice that in 3-6 seasons (including this year), his teams did not lose to losing teams. That's a better record than Cowher and Bellicheat. So tell me again, why he's such an awful coach? Look, we're struggling this season. We have injuries up the wazzu. It happens. Relax, ride it out, and enjoy the off season. Next year we'll get back to normal. Remember the two-on one-off cycle the Steelers have been in since the late 90's.

I didn't say he was a lousy coach. I'm saying the team is playing like a poorly coached team at the moment, and it damn well needs to stop or there wont be any chance of a postseason! Even with Ben.

[43Hitman]

Batch was bad. But so was everyone else on offense other than Heath Miller and Emanuel Sanders. Every time Charlie or Lefty did do something right there's an effing flag!

And we've got 20 yards to go for the first. :frusty:


When a team goes in with their back up qb the rest of team is supposed to pick up the slack.( it's what we did in 2010) For the most part the defense has done it's part the past two games. But poor special teams play, bad penalties, dropped passes, and fumbles galore have sabatoged any chance our back up qb's have had to help us win the last two weeks!

Instead of stepping up we keep stepping into it! :poop:

- - - Updated - - -



Sanders fumbled a punt return out of bounds and the Steelers retained possession.

These guys are pro's, they know what's at stake game in and game out. Its up to them to perform at that level and for some reason everyone shit the bed today. If this was happening year after year or for long stretches in the season then I could see where the onus should fall on Tomlin and his staff. But not in this case. Not when the team is on its third QB and numerous other key players out with significant injuries.

[Count Steeler]

2011

0 losses to losing teams

2010

0 losses to losing teams

2009 (non playoff team)

Bears 7-9
KC Chiefs 4-12
Oakland Raiders 5-11
Browns 5-11

2008

0 losses to losing teams

2007

Cardinals 8-8 (facing old OC)
Broncos 7-9
Jets 4-12
Ravens 5-11 (Ben out - resting for playoffs if I remember right).
__________________________________________________ ____

Notice that in 3-6 seasons (including this year), his teams did not lose to losing teams. That's a better record than Cowher and Bellicheat. So tell me again, why he's such an awful coach? Look, we're struggling this season. We have injuries up the wazzu. It happens. Relax, ride it out, and enjoy the off season. Next year we'll get back to normal. Remember the two-on one-off cycle the Steelers have been in since the late 90's.

Just imagine what is waiting to come back to this team. Sean Spence, David Johnson, David DeCastro, Troy Polamalu, etc. Plus we will have another draft before next year. While this year is not a write off just yet, next year is panning out to be something special. Unless Ashley gets pregnant again. :chuckle:

[zulater]

Just imagine what is waiting to come back to this team. Sean Spence, David Johnson, David DeCastro, Troy Polamalu, etc. Plus we will have another draft before next year. While this year is not a write off just yet, next year is panning out to be something special. Unless Ashley gets pregnant again. :chuckle:

I wont bank on Troy being an elite player in the future until I see him playing at an elite level again. Love the guy, but I'm not certain he'll ever be "that guy" again.

[86WARD]

Sanders fumbled ???

news to me

I must have been puking form some other screw up by someone ( who knows who the list is to long )

I had counted , Rainey 2 ( 1 out of bounds )
Mendy 2 we recovered 1
Redman 1
Dwyer 1

Fumbled at least once on a punt return - he recovered

[Count Steeler]

I wont bank on Troy being an elite player in the future until I see him playing at an elite level again. Love the guy, but I'm not certain he'll ever be "that guy" again.

He doesn't have to be elite to be effective. Just need that steady play and the possibility of the 1-2 splash plays. Yes, he is on the down hill side of his career, but he may have 1-2 pretty good seasons left, if he can stay healthy.

[86WARD]

And somehow that's Tomlin's fault? My point still stands. And for the record I haven't been in Wallace's corner all year. The guy is overrated and not nearly worth what he is or isn't asking.

Didn't say it was, but eventually, it is going to come down to coaching...

[zulater]

He doesn't have to be elite to be effective. Just need that steady play and the possibility of the 1-2 splash plays. Yes, he is on the down hill side of his career, but he may have 1-2 pretty good seasons left, if he can stay healthy.

In other words be Will Allen! :lol:

Seriously I'm not knocking Troy, Will Allen has really stepped it up since he was put in over Mundy.

[Count Steeler]

In other words be Will Allen! :lol:

Seriously I'm not knocking Troy, Will Allen has really stepped it up since he was put in over Mundy.

Well, then we would be able to go in to Denver and have a CHANCE of winning. Allen and Polamalu should be able to do the job.

[Craic]

I didn't say he was a lousy coach. I'm saying the team is playing like a poorly coached team at the moment, and it damn well needs to stop or there wont be any chance of a postseason! Even with Ben.


Not just one bad game. We lost to the Raiders, Titans, and Browns already this season. Take away the Steelers wins and they have a combined record of 7-23.

Should a "great coach" lose that often to inferior teams? We also were gifted a win over the 1-10 Chiefs.


That is what I was correcting. He has more seasons without a loss to losing teams in his six years than the "Great Bill Cowher" and the "God Billicheat." So, should a great coach lose that often to inferior teams? The answer, seems to be, "Yes."



Anyway instead of calling him Momlin, I think a better nickname is Teflon Tomlin. Because nothing seems to ever stick to him.

Commit more penalties than anyone else in the league? Not Tomlin's fault.

BTW - You're wrong here too. After today's game, the steelers are ranked 15th, tied with Indi and Tennessee for least penalties at 6.3 per game. They are 1/10 of a point away from being tied for 12th least penalized team. Also, remember that at least two of those penalties were absolute blown calls. That actually moves the Steelers to being tied for 12th, if not holding that position alone.


Have inadequete depth at qb? Nothing to do with the head coach apparently.
Wait, I thought Batch was a great second QB. So let me get this right, you're now blaming Tomlin for keeping the QB that you were serenading last week as a great Steelers backup QB that just has it when it comes to leading this team, because the team "responds to him." Really? In one week you're completely reversing your argument AND blaming Tomlin now for not being prophetic?


I wont annoy everyone and belabor the name. But Teflon Tomlin is a perfect fit in my opinion.
Nope - "Tomlin the Good Coach" is the perfect fit, IMO. Unless of course, you want to ignore stats and rewrite opinions.

[43Hitman]

Didn't say it was, but eventually, it is going to come down to coaching...

My post was responding to the thread title and I addressed the situation of these scenarios becoming repetitive and where blame should lie.

[Craic]

I wont bank on Troy being an elite player in the future until I see him playing at an elite level again. Love the guy, but I'm not certain he'll ever be "that guy" again.

This - unfortunately, I think is absolutely true. I'm not holding my breath for Troy playing at the same level either, and if he comes back to play at a reduced impact in the game, what would be better, keeping Troy and his salary, or letting Will Allen develop while he can play opposite Ryan Clark (and at a massively reduced salary).

[43Hitman]

That is what I was correcting. He has more seasons without a loss to losing teams in his six years than the "Great Bill Cowher" and the "God Billicheat." So, should a great coach lose that often to inferior teams? The answer, seems to be, "Yes."



BTW - You're wrong here too. After today's game, the steelers are ranked 15th, tied with Indi and Tennessee for least penalties at 6.3 per game. They are 1/10 of a point away from being tied for 12th least penalized team. Also, remember that at least two of those penalties were absolute blown calls. That actually moves the Steelers to being tied for 12th, if not holding that position alone.

Fire the special teams coach the week before the season and watch last year's assett become this year's liability? Doesn't stick to the Teflon Don.


Wait, I thought Batch was a great second QB. So let me get this right, you're now blaming Tomlin for keeping the QB that you were serenading last week as a great Steelers backup QB that just has it when it comes to leading this team, because the team "responds to him." Really? In one week you're completely reversing your argument AND blaming Tomlin now for not being prophetic?

Nope - "Tomlin the Good Coach" is the perfect fit, IMO. Unless of course, you want to ignore stats and rewrite opinions.

Zu is the biggest double talker on this board after a loss. Its better to just try and talk him off the cliff, because when his blood pressure gets this high, he doesn't think so well.

[Count Steeler]

This - unfortunately, I think is absolutely true. I'm not holding my breath for Troy playing at the same level either, and if he comes back to play at a reduced impact in the game, what would be better, keeping Troy and his salary, or letting Will Allen develop while he can play opposite Ryan Clark (and at a massively reduced salary).

With diminished performance should come diminished salary. Besides, Allen is no spring chicken. He is 30. Would like to see what Golden has in some live game situations.

[zulater]

That is what I was correcting. He has more seasons without a loss to losing teams in his six years than the "Great Bill Cowher" and the "God Billicheat." So, should a great coach lose that often to inferior teams? The answer, seems to be, "Yes."



BTW - You're wrong here too. After today's game, the steelers are ranked 15th, tied with Indi and Tennessee for least penalties at 6.3 per game. They are 1/10 of a point away from being tied for 12th least penalized team. Also, remember that at least two of those penalties were absolute blown calls. That actually moves the Steelers to being tied for 12th, if not holding that position alone.

Fire the special teams coach the week before the season and watch last year's assett become this year's liability? Doesn't stick to the Teflon Don.


Wait, I thought Batch was a great second QB. So let me get this right, you're now blaming Tomlin for keeping the QB that you were serenading last week as a great Steelers backup QB that just has it when it comes to leading this team, because the team "responds to him." Really? In one week you're completely reversing your argument AND blaming Tomlin now for not being prophetic?

Nope - "Tomlin the Good Coach" is the perfect fit, IMO. Unless of course, you want to ignore stats and rewrite opinions.

Why do you keep bringing up Cowher? Who gives a fuck about Cowher, he works at CBS.

And I thought Batch gave us a better chance than injury waiting to happen can't finish a game to save his life Byron Leftwich. And I said Batch has earned enough equity on and off the field as a Steeler that he shouldn't be labeled with derisive nick names from message board posters. I never claimed he was great. And besides if the field position hadn't sucked all day, and the backs hadn't fumbled away any chance at a running game, and Wallace didn't misplay a red zone opportunity into an interception, and the O-line didn't derail numersous possessions with drive killing penalty after drive killing penalty I still say he could have delivered the win.

Batch did his job as good or better today than your idol Mike Tomlin did. Mike would probably be the first one to agree with me here.

- - - Updated - - -


Zu is the biggest double talker on this board after a loss. Its better to just try and talk him off the cliff, because when his blood pressure gets this high, he doesn't think so well.

I'm thinking fine just now.

As far as double talk, as information changes so does my viewpoint. If I see a cliff ahead I turn, I don't keep going along at the same clip and make no derivation to my steering. Do you?

[Seven]

@Dwinsgames: Sanders didn't really "fumble". He muffed a punt that went out of bounds and failed to get the ball to another Steeler on that final circus-last-second-gasp play. So TECHNICALLY, yeah he did twice.

[Craic]

Why do you keep bringing up Cowher? Who gives a fuck about Cowher, he works at CBS. I'm comparing apples and apples. Many think Cowher was a very good coach. He is the coach just before Tomlin. So the comparison is apt. I'm sorry if you don't see that, but it really is. So in short, that comparison, plus the comparison with the Pats* coach, proves my point.


And I thought Batch gave us a better chance than injury waiting to happen can't finish a game to save his life Byron Leftwich. And I said Batch has earned enough equity on and off the field as a Steeler that he shouldn't be labeled with derisive nick names from message board posters.
Neither did I, so what's your point? And as for injury waiting to happen - how do you figure Batch is any better when he's had three season ending injuries in the last six games he's played? (I think it was six, either that, or seven).


I never claimed he was great. And besides if the field position hadn't sucked all day, and the backs hadn't fumbled away any chance at a running game, and Wallace didn't misplay a red zone opportunity into an interception, and the O-line didn't derail numersous possessions with drive killing penalty after drive killing penalty I still say he could have delivered the win.
Sure. And if ST's hadn't screwed up last week, Lefty would have delivered the win. We can play that game all day.


Batch did his job as good or better today than your idol Mike Tomlin did. Mike would probably be the first one to agree with me here.


"Idol?" Please. Just because I'm showing the statistics that invalidate your "After the game emotions" or whatever you called it a few threads ago, doesn't mean Tomlin is my "Idol," and dang well doesn't give you the right to put words in my mouth or make assumptions about what I think.

Nice try on switch arguments though.

[zulater]

Sanders didn't really "fumble". He muffed a punt that went out of bounds and failed to get the ball to another Steeler and that final circus-last-second-gasp play. So TECHNICALLY, yeah he did twice.

Oh yeah, he takes the bullet for the fumblerooski bs. Oh well no one with a brain will hold that against Sanders.

Of course we wont be surprised if Sanders "two fumbles" might be brought up in a thread pertaining to Mike Wallace's relative worth at some point this week. :chuckle:

[Craic]

Now, my wife just informed me Kate Beckinsale is on TV, so I have more important things to do for a little while. :chuckle:

[Dwinsgames]

@Dwinsgames: Sanders didn't really "fumble". He muffed a punt that went out of bounds and failed to get the ball to another Steeler on that final circus-last-second-gasp play. So TECHNICALLY, yeah he did twice.


I guess if they call a failed lateral a fumble then he is guilty as charged .... but that had zero bearing on the game IMO

thanks for the clarification

[43Hitman]

Batch did his job as good or better today than your idol Mike Tomlin did. Mike would probably be the first one to agree with me here.

Give us a break. No one said that. I also find it amusing that you conveniently leave out all of Botch's miscues today. The numerous overthrows, one-hops and ints are far from being the standard. Come on man, how in the hell do you expect us to take you seriously when you routinely spout of this kind of crap after every loss.

- - - Updated - - -

And with that, I have better things to do than argue with someone who's emotions are getting in the way of common sense. So good night all. :cheers:

[zulater]

I'm comparing apples and apples. Many think Cowher was a very good coach. He is the coach just before Tomlin. So the comparison is apt. I'm sorry if you don't see that, but it really is. So in short, that comparison, plus the comparison with the Pats* coach, proves my point.


Neither did I, so what's your point? And as for injury waiting to happen - how do you figure Batch is any better when he's had three season ending injuries in the last six games he's played? (I think it was six, either that, or seven).


Sure. And if ST's hadn't screwed up last week, Lefty would have delivered the win. We can play that game all day.


"Idol?" Please. Just because I'm showing the statistics that invalidate your "After the game emotions" or whatever you called it a few threads ago, doesn't mean Tomlin is my "Idol," and dang well doesn't give you the right to put words in my mouth or make assumptions about what I think.

Nice try on switch arguments though.

Give Tomlin a grade for today?

Now for the season to date?

And the rationale behind it?

Here's mine. For today. F. Do I really need to explain? Would coach Tomlin suggest he deserves better? Doubtfull.

For the season. C+

Rationale. The team has too many critical breakdowns. Injuries are a factor, but all teams have injuries. And they can't be used as an excuse. ( to Tomlin's credit he never goes that route anyway)

I thought Tomlin should have been coach of the year in 2010, because his team rallied around adversity. This year adversity seems like it keeps kicking our ass. We don't need excuses, we need wins. It's a five game season now. This team is still talented enough and the schedule is accomadating enough that we should still win at least 3 of those games.

Do that, and the grade goes up. Don't go 3-2 or better, and it goes down.

[zulater]

Give us a break. No one said that. I also find it amusing that you conveniently leave out all of Botch's miscues today. The numerous overthrows, one-hops and ints are far from being the standard. Come on man, how in the hell do you expect us to take you seriously when you routinely spout of this kind of crap after every loss.

- - - Updated - - -

And with that, I have better things to do than argue with someone who's emotions are getting in the way of common sense. So good night all. :cheers:

Batch didn't play good. But you don't go into the game placing the responsability for the result on his shoulders. His job should be not to lose the game as opposed to winning it. The running game should have carried the burden of the offense today. It should have last week as well ( but that was more about Haley's game plan than the backs underperforming) The offense line and special teams should have carried a heavier burden. ( instead they were liabilities) Mike Wallace wants to be paid like an elite receiver, how about making that play in the red zone?

Batch is a substitute teacher. You can't place blame on him if the class fails the test. Someone of higher authority has to see to it that those that are capable of carrying the burden do in fact do so.

[Dwinsgames]

Batch didn't play good. But you don't go into the game placing the responsability for the result on his shoulders. His job should be not to lose the game as opposed to winning it. The running game should have carried the burden of the offense today. It should have last week as well ( but that was more about Haley's game plan than the backs underperforming) The offense line and special teams should have carried a heavier burden. ( instead they were liabilities) Mike Wallace wants to be paid like an elite receiver, how about making that play in the red zone?

Batch is a substitute teacher. You can't place blame on him if the class fails the test. Someone of higher authority has to see to it that those that are capable of carrying the burden do in fact do so.

all the while I agree with pretty much all you said and keep in mind I thought Charlie would play fairly well ( and he did not ) but it was not entirely his fault in how his play looks in the box score either ...

I do place some blame in other areas ....

1) if the Steelers felt Charlies play had declined to the level we witnessed today ( and Byron last week ) they ...

A) should have made sure they where better prepared and less rusty through the season by providing more than one or two snaps a week as stated in interviews that they got

B) replaced one or both of them with younger more athletically talented players with upside instead of decline

I know many teams use the same formula with the backups as the Steelers do , but I also know many teams do not and they afford the backup QBs a decent amount of the snaps each week in preparation ...we where ill prepared for what we witnessed last week and this week and unless Ben returns I do not expect next week to be any different in fact it might be worse from the QB perspective considering the Ravens now have fresh tape on Batch and they have to be licking their chops right about now thinking about it .....

The only way you can have a successful backup QB play in this league without reps is to have a backup that is full of athletic ability and we simply do not have that on our roster ( Charlie was but that was a dozen years ago and he simply has no legs now ) if your ability to throw is rusty then you have to improvise and the guys we have do not have improvisational skill sets ..

just my http://draftsteel.com/ff/images/smilies/twocents.gif

[steeldawg]

Here you are with a back up qb playing. As a coaching staff don't you have to stress fundamentals to the team leading up to the game? Instead we commit turnovers, penalties galore, and lose the special teams battle. :der:

You tell me how this doesn't reflect poorly on the coaching?

You are 100% correct its been terrible all year, you cant change running backs like underwear these guys need carries consistently to get a feel for the game and get the feel of being hit. Also not being prepared at the qb position when ben went down, batch and lefty were both terrible, batch could not drive the ball down the field at all the only pass he could hit was the underneath crossing routes. All of these injuries penaltys and turnovers are a reflection of our coaching staff not having the team ready to play. Im not even going to argue about players anymore because its obvious the problem is preperation.

[zulater]

Give Tomlin a grade for today?

Now for the season to date?

And the rationale behind it?

Here's mine. For today. F. Do I really need to explain? Would coach Tomlin suggest he deserves better? Doubtfull.

For the season. C+

Rationale. The team has too many critical breakdowns. Injuries are a factor, but all teams have injuries. And they can't be used as an excuse. ( to Tomlin's credit he never goes that route anyway)

I thought Tomlin should have been coach of the year in 2010, because his team rallied around adversity. This year adversity seems like it keeps kicking our ass. We don't need excuses, we need wins. It's a five game season now. This team is still talented enough and the schedule is accomadating enough that we should still win at least 3 of those games.

Do that, and the grade goes up. Don't go 3-2 or better, and it goes down.

Well Preach, you accused me of putting words in your mouth. Well here's your chance in your own words to quantify Tomlin's performance for this game, and the season to date.

Anyone else care to weigh in, perhaps comment on my grades. Have I been unfair? Is C+ for the season to date too harsh or leinent? Is there some thought that Tomlin deserves better than an F for the game against the Browns?

Everyone wants to torch me for offering an opinion. But no one seems to want to weigh in and quantify what sort of job Tomlin is doing so far this season?

Or is just the fact that he's Tomlin mean he's above any sort of criticism?

The penalties aren't his responsibily? The substandard special teams plays doesn't in any way trace back to him? The lack of an adequete back up for Big Ben isn't relatable to the coach? (btw, so effing what if I called it wrong on Batch! I'm not the coach, it's not my responsability to know if Batch or Leftwich can play is it?)

Just wondering if there's any way that Tomlin ever gets anything less than A++ from some of you guys?

[steeldawg]

Well Preach, you accused me of putting words in your mouth. Well here's your chance in your own words to quantify Tomlin's performance for this game, and the season to date.

Anyone else care to weigh in, perhaps comment on my grades. Have I been unfair? Is C+ for the season to date too harsh or leinent? Is there some thought that Tomlin deserves better than an F for the game against the Browns?

Everyone wants to torch me for offering an opinion. But no one seems to want to weigh in and quantify what sort of job Tomlin is doing so far this season?

Or is just the fact that he's Tomlin mean he's above any sort of criticism?

The penalties aren't his responsibily? The substandard special teams plays doesn't in any way trace back to him? The lack of an adequete back up for Big Ben isn't relatable to the coach? (btw, so effing what if I called it wrong on Batch! I'm not the coach, it's not my responsability to know if Batch or Leftwich can play is it?)

Just wondering if there's any way that Tomlin ever gets anything less than A++ from some of you guys?

I think he has been horrible all year, alot of his bone head mistakes has been masked by our talent but now his mismanagent of the team is starting show.

[Dwinsgames]

Ok Zu you asked for it ...

I think a C+ is a bit lenient I would give him a C based on results , after all he says himself you are what your record says you are and there are no excuses when it comes to injuries ( again his own words )

Today F is the standard you lost to a team with just 2 wins prior to today , the team was permitted to look past the Browns in an effort to get ready for the Rematch with the Ravens claim it was not like that all ya want but my mind is made up and I will not change it , they played flat on O all day long was careless with the football and had little effort to the man all day ( except Sanders and Miller ) whom where the only 2 that looked game ready .....

The D came to play but for them its a Pride thing and they did everything they could to secure a W ... but as we have been told before by Tomlin that is Lebeau's house he controls the environment so Tomlin gets none of the credit there from me ...

this for me is not " over reaction " it is reality .... can the grades improve by seasons end , sure they can but they can also go down ....

I am not calling for his Job but it is my opinion he should get more than 1 ear full from Dan and Art , preparation is key , motivation is key , execution is key today we have no keys

[zulater]

Ok Zu you asked for it ...

I think a C+ is a bit lenient I would give him a C based on results , after all he says himself you are what your record says you are and there are no excuses when it comes to injuries ( again his own words )

Today F is the standard you lost to a team with just 2 wins prior to today , the team was permitted to look past the Browns in an effort to get ready for the Rematch with the Ravens claim it was not like that all ya want but my mind is made up and I will not change it , they played flat on O all day long was careless with the football and had little effort to the man all day ( except Sanders and Miller ) whom where the only 2 that looked game ready .....

The D came to play but for them its a Pride thing and they did everything they could to secure a W ... but as we have been told before by Tomlin that is Lebeau's house he controls the environment so Tomlin gets none of the credit there from me ...

this for me is not " over reaction " it is reality .... can the grades improve by seasons end , sure they can but they can also go down ....

I am not calling for his Job but it is my opinion he should get more than 1 ear full from Dan and Art , preparation is key , motivation is key , execution is key today we have no keys

Good stuff Dwins. :applaudit:

[Craic]

Well Preach, you accused me of putting words in your mouth. Well here's your chance in your own words to quantify Tomlin's performance for this game, and the season to date.

Anyone else care to weigh in, perhaps comment on my grades. Have I been unfair? Is C+ for the season to date too harsh or leinent? Is there some thought that Tomlin deserves better than an F for the game against the Browns?

Everyone wants to torch me for offering an opinion. But no one seems to want to weigh in and quantify what sort of job Tomlin is doing so far this season?

Or is just the fact that he's Tomlin mean he's above any sort of criticism?

The penalties aren't his responsibily? The substandard special teams plays doesn't in any way trace back to him? The lack of an adequete back up for Big Ben isn't relatable to the coach? (btw, so effing what if I called it wrong on Batch! I'm not the coach, it's not my responsability to know if Batch or Leftwich can play is it?)

Just wondering if there's any way that Tomlin ever gets anything less than A++ from some of you guys?

No, Zu, it's the All or Nothing mentality that you often post with after games that gets me riled up. I don't care to "torch you" for an opinion, and actually find that, outside of the opinions you form the rest of the day after a game, I'm usually agreeing with a large part of them. For instance, I think C+ may be a bit low, but still quite fair for the year. I too think that the timing of the special teams coach being fired was a bad move. Then again, I have to wonder if that was all Tomlin too.

I have to give him a bit of a pass on the injury front, especially on the line. We lost our number one prospect and starting left guard, then we lost our center for what was it, three weeks? Then our right tackle goes out and we bring have to use a rookie that didn't look so good on the left side in camp. Through it all however, the line has come together much better than I think we could have hoped, given the tools we were coming into this season with and the injuries sustained. On defense, it seems that Tomlin's eye for db's is really starting to shine, with two guys starting for the first time for us for any extended period of time, and both playing exceptionally well.

Like you and the rest, I was shocked at the beginning of the year when we kept both Lefty and Batch. I thought for sure Batch was going to be cut. My point here, by the way, was that if the points you were making before today's game were true, then they may have been the same things the coaches were depending on, especially for a third QB. I mean, what's the standard for a third down back in the salary-cap NFL? My guess is that he can throw checkdowns, hand the ball off, and once in a while, hit a 15 or 20 yard pass. Anything more than that, and he's going to be earning more money somewhere else as a second stringer. So while I do think Batch is worse than Lefty, I can understand why he was kept, especially with his player/coach ability, and off-field leadership for this team.

At that point though, I think the jig is up and it's time to let him go (and again, bring him back as a coach). So, not in hindsight, but staying consistent with what I thought at the beginning of the year, I think that Batch should have been gone and replaced by Jerrod Johnson.

Here's what I give Tomlin a lot of credit for, though: he seems to be a good leader in that he tells his coaches what he wants, and then steps away and let's his coaches do the job, without cutting their legs out from underneath them. That is vitally important in the OC and DC having respect from the players and other coaches. Second, he steps to the plate and takes responsibility to give his guys more freedom to perform without having to worry about repercussions (coaches). That too I think is brilliant.

Not so brilliant, is the way he treats players that underperform at times. I still think that he's about fifty percent at fault for Sweed - that if Sweed was allowed to stay out there and work through some of his issue, he would have made a turn around. Maybe not, but I thought Tomlin was too quick with the hook. I thought the same thing today with the fumbles. At some point, you have to say, "your the man" and ride the horse.

So, with our number 1 and 2 RB out for most and half the season, with our line playing musical chairs (again), with our staring safety out pretty much the entire season, with one of our staring OLB out almost half the season, I think Tomlin's done a decent job. The team is in the top half of the stats for least penalties per game, they are still a work in progress, and the team has really bought into the "next man up" idea.

If Tomlin is lacking anywhere, it's in specific game time decisions. His challenges are usually poor (though I think he's done a better job this season). He's aggressive, which I like, but sometimes a little too aggressive, and last, I think he needs to tighten the ship when it comes to clock management, and stress it up and down the line.

So, overall, C or C+ is fair right now, if we're grading on the curve with all the injuries, maybe a B-, though that's being a tad generous. The game today, C-. The game plan was fine. It kept Charlie within his game. The problem was that the RB's couldn't keep a hold of the ball, and then Charlie tried to do a little too much.

If we had half the turnovers, we may have won that game thanks to the Defensive TD.

If we find ourselves going into the regular season next year with Ben, Charlie, and Lefty, I'll revise that downward considerably after this year.

[tube517]

If Tomlin is lacking anywhere, it's in specific game time decisions. His challenges are usually poor (though I think he's done a better job this season). He's aggressive, which I like, but sometimes a little too aggressive, and last, I think he needs to tighten the ship when it comes to clock management, and stress it up and down the line.


That about sums up my criticisms of Tomlin. No, I don't think he's Barry Switzer. He's a good coach. But, he isn't without his faults,