Defensive ineptness. Talent or scheme, where does the blame lie?

[zulater]

Simple question. Has the talent fallen off that much?

Or is the scheme worn and used to the point of ineptness unless you have DPOY type talent such as Polamalu and or Harrison playing at unearthly levels?

[steelerdude15]

I have a feeling its more of the execution from the players. However, its well known the scheme is changed when Troy is out. To add to that, Mundy is a back up safety at the most. It will be nice when James and Troy are back, that is for sure.

[zulater]

Troy better be back next week, because it wouldn't be surprising if Mundy is suspended for a game or two after what happened to Heyward Bay.

[steelerdude15]

Troy better be back next week, because it wouldn't be surprising if Mundy is suspended for a game or two after what happened to Heyward Bay.

I don't think he'll be suspended, but I bet he gets a twenty thousand dollar plus fine come this week.

[Count Steeler]

Simple question. Has the talent fallen off that much?

Or is the scheme worn and used to the point of ineptness unless you have DPOY type talent such as Polamalu and or Harrison playing at unearthly levels?

B. Time for a change. Said it at the end of 2010. Time to pass the torch on to Butler.

[Godfather]

Injuries are a huge factor. You simply can't replace Polamalu and Harrison.

Plus with the backups becoming starters and the third stringers becoming backups, you don't have fresh legs by the end of the game. That doesn't help either.

[steelreserve]

Both. As I said in another thread, the scheme depends on dominating the line of scrimmage, and we can't anymore. When it was Keisel, Smith, Harrison, Woodley, Hoke, and 2000-08 Casey Hampton, we were constantly getting guys into the backfield and messing up plays. Hood, Heyward, Worilds, McLendon, and 2012 Casey Hampton don't do that. In particular, I think the D-Line doesn't get much push or disruption anymore, and that makes things worse on the LBs too, and pretty soon the whole thing stops working.

Either some of those guys need to start winning the battle for us up front, or we need to re-evaluate what we're doing.

[JayC]

in my opinion, it's the talent. the steelers really haven't had many good corners since rod woodson (best one would be ike), so i'm not going to blame the CB's #1. when we lose it's because qbs aren't getting sacked or pressured. we need better pass rushers. woodley is good but he is overrated as hell in my opinion. i don't ever expect harrison to be the monster he was a couple of years ago. we need to find a couple of good strong fast linebackers. chris carter and worilds don't cut it.

[steelerdude15]

B. Time for a change. Said it at the end of 2010. Time to pass the torch on to Butler.

You know, I've been wondering the same thing. I love LeBeau and he is the greatest defensive coordinator to have ever coached, but I just wonder if he doesn't have the ability to prepare the defense anymore, read offenses, etc.

[zulater]

Injuries are a huge factor. You simply can't replace Polamalu and Harrison.

Plus with the backups becoming starters and the third stringers becoming backups, you don't have fresh legs by the end of the game. That doesn't help either.

Anything you get from 92 or 43 you got to view as a bonus. If you're waiting on them producing at elite or near elite level to put this defense over the top, chances are you'll have a long wait.

[Edman]

A Little of Both. Mostly Scheme.

Lebeau once again set back in a passive zone and let Palmer pick them apart. Not once did Palmer have to think or hesitate in the 2nd Half. Every completion I saw barely had defenders within three yards of the reciever. The shit didn't work in Denver, it didn't work against Sanchez, and it certainly didn't work here, so why the fuck did we keep doing it? Haley made adjustments mid-game and the Offense was nigh-unstoppable. Lebeau clearly saw what didn't work, but went ahead with it anyway.

The Zone D is obsolete without players like Troy, and Ryan Mundy is no Troy. Many Teams have adjusted to it now going back to last year. When this Defense played Man, no one could move the ball on them, when we sat in a zone, it was picked apart.

We Shut Down Tom Brady with that scheme last year. Brady made a living and notoriously ate Lebeau's Zone alive. Aaron Rodgers became an MVP against the Zone Defense. The League simply put has caught up to Lebeau's Zone Defense. It's not working anymore. It's not fooling anybody.

When it comes to talent. Our players just aren't suited for the scheme. The days of Deshea Townsend and Bryant McFadden are long gone. Keenan Lewis and Cortez Butler are horses of a different breed. We can't run the Zone effectively anymore.

[steeldawg]

i think its a little of both, the scheme is no longer fooling qbs and o lines like it used to, but i think it has been masked because of the playmakers we had on D. Now that the talent out there is a significant drop off you are really seeing it.

[steelerdude15]

Its going to make for an interesting offseason, that is for sure.

[steelerdude15]

Mostly Scheme.

Lebeau once again set back in a passive zone and let Palmer pick them apart. Not once did Palmer have to think or hesitate in the 2nd Half. Every completion I saw barely had defenders within three yards of the reciever. The shit didn't work in Denver, it didn't work against Sanchez, and it certainly didn't work here, so why the fuck did we keep doing it? Haley made adjustments mid-game and the Offense was nigh-unstoppable. Lebeau clearly saw what didn't work, but went ahead with it anyway.

The Zone D is obsolete without players like Troy, and Ryan Mundy is no Troy. Many Teams have adjusted to it now going back to last year. When this Defense played Man, no one could move the ball on them, when we sat in a zone, it was picked apart.

We Shut Down Tom Brady with that scheme last year. Brady made a living and notoriously ate the Zone alive.

Yeah, I hate when he does that. This is probably my biggest complaint against LeBeau.

[Shoes]

Both imo ....Heyward and Hood are not worthy of 1st round picks.....and I agree with Count on Butler.

[steelerdude15]

Both imo ....Heyward and Hood are not worthy of 1st round picks.....and I agree with Count on Butler.

The thing about Heyward is that he doesn't start and barely plays. Hood does seem to be pretty quiet though.

[JayC]

Both imo ....Heyward and Hood are not worthy of 1st round picks.....and I agree with Count on Butler.

sure seems like it. i feel like if we had aaron smith in his prime being doubled teamed i wouldn't be complaining about these linebackers getting barely any pressure on qbs. right now i think i put the blame 50/50 between the linebackers and DL though but the truth might be that the defensive line is most to blame.

[steelerdude15]

sure seems like it. i feel like if we had aaron smith in his prime being doubled teamed i wouldn't be complaining about these linebackers getting barely any pressure on qbs. right now i think i put the blame 50/50 between the linebackers and DL though but the truth might be that the defensive line is most to blame.

Yeah, they do seem pretty weak. There hasn't been much if any noise out of them so far this season.

[Shoes]

The thing about Heyward is that he doesn't start and barely plays.

Most 1st rounders do tho.

[steelerdude15]

Most 1st rounders do tho.

Maybe they don't feel he's ready or maybe they feel Ziggy and Brett are better fit to start. :noidea:

[steelreserve]

Both imo ....Heyward and Hood are not worthy of 1st round picks.....and I agree with Count on Butler.

Some people would crucify you for that - "OMG YOU'RE ALREADY CALLING THEM A BUST, LET'S CUT DECASTRO AND ADAMS AND RAINEY AND TROY WHILE WE'RE AT IT, REMEMBER PEOPLE THOUGHT TROY WAS A BUST"

But I definitely agree, as it stands, they're not doing what's required of them. Yeah they had big shoes to fill, and maybe they'll still get better in time, but nothing less than outstanding D-Line play makes our defense work, and we're not getting it right now.

[Count Steeler]

If our defensive scheme is so hard to play in and the players take a long time to get used to it, why is it other QBs figure it out in 1 quarter?

Time for a change.

[steelerdude15]

If our defensive scheme is so hard to play in and the players take a long time to get used to it, why is it other QBs figure it out in 1 quarter?

Time for a change.

It also doesn't help that adjustments aren't made when they need to be made.

[Edman]

If our defensive scheme is so hard to play in and the players take a long time to get used to it, why is it other QBs figure it out in 1 quarter?

Time for a change.

Because the league has caught up to the Zone Defense. Troy masked the deficiencies in a big way. When he's not out there, well the defense just may as well be just 11 stiffs standing around, because that's how Denver, Sanchez (1st two drives), and Palmer made the Zone Defense look like today.

Three games in a row the Zone Defense has failed. Time for a change. The Zone D has seen it's last days.

[Edman]

It also doesn't help that adjustments aren't made when they need to be made.

We adjusted fine after Sanchez carved them up, and for some reason, we didn't bother changing things up in this game.

[Shoes]

>snip<


Troy masked the deficiencies in a big way. When he's not out there, well the defense just may as well just 11 stiffs standing around,

:chuckle:

[steel9guy]

We gotta get over the James and Troy days. They are still better than average but for goodness sakes we need better backups.

[salamander]

In my opinion, it's more scheme. I think it might be time for a change.

[steelerdude15]

We adjusted fine after Sanchez carved them up, and for some reason, we didn't bother changing things up in this game.

I've noticed that the defensive scheme is usually left intact and is rarely altered. I guess last week may have been one of the those rare times.

[st33lersguy]

A combination of both for me. Our senile defensive coordinator keeps the running the same old scheme that never works and looks like an idiot every time he runs it. The absence of Harrison and Polamalu have also hurt. The pass rush has been non-existent with Harrison gone, with no one else getting the job done, and with Polamalu injured, we are stuck with inept backup Ryan Mundy, Ike Taylor who has taken a few steps backwards, and no. 2 corners who have not proven they belong on an NFL field. I thought I would never say this but the loss of William Gay hurt and has left a void. Is there any other explanation how the Cardinals are 3-0 with Gay after containing Tom Brady's high-octane offense and shutting down Mike Vick's offense, and these sorry ass wastes of space can't even stop Crappy Carson Palmer and his cerebrum of crappy WRs?

[steelerdude15]

A combination of both for me. Our senile defensive coordinator keeps the running the same old scheme that never works and looks like an idiot every time he runs it. The absence of Harrison and Polamalu have also hurt. The pass rush has been non-existent with Harrison gone, with no one else getting the job done, and with Polamalu injured, we are stuck with inept backup Ryan Mundy, Ike Taylor who has taken a few steps backwards, and no. 2 corners who have not proven they belong on an NFL field. I thought I would never say this but the loss of William Gay hurt and has left a void. Is there any other explanation how the Cardinals are 3-0 with Gay after containing Tom Brady's high-octane offense and shutting down Mike Vick's offense, and these sorry ass wastes of space can't even stop Crappy Carson Palmer and his cerebrum of crappy WRs?

I would LOVE to have a shut down corner like Revis to be the number two corner.

[Edman]

Is there any other explanation how the Cardinals are 3-0 with Gay after containing Tom Brady's high-octane offense and shutting down Mike Vick's offense, and these sorry ass wastes of space can't even stop Crappy Carson Palmer and his cerebrum of crappy WRs?

Because Ray Horton wasn't stupid enough to keep tiddydiddling around with bullshit cushion defense while Lebeau is?

Horton's D is playing aggressive and not fooling around with soft zones. His DB's are challenging receivers. Not sitting back and Lol Hope I'll FOOL 'EM.

[fansince'76]

I thought I would never say this but the loss of William Gay hurt and has left a void. Is there any other explanation how the Cardinals are 3-0 with Gay after containing Tom Brady's high-octane offense and shutting down Mike Vick's offense, and these sorry ass wastes of space can't even stop Crappy Carson Palmer and his cerebrum of crappy WRs?

Yeah, they're getting PRESSURE and SACKS. We're not. Oh, and Vick and the Eagles are MASSIVELY overrated.

[Chidi29]

Alright guys, let's take a deep breath. This knee-jerk reaction song and dance is getting stale. Let's take a day to collect ourselves before we start deciding to fire and bench everyone.

One thing I noticed the past few weeks has been the high volume of safety blitzes (possibly to make up for the lack of pass rush by front seven). When you do that, you have to protect yourself from the deep ball. So corners have a tendency to play off, turn their hips sooner, and respect the deep ball even more. So that creates separation for those underneath routes.

So you can either not blitz and give the QB all day or blitz and risk getting nickeled and dimed. It's not a pretty situation.

[Edman]

Yeah, they're getting PRESSURE and SACKS. We're not.


What do you mean be "Pressure"? Having the Front 7 in Palmer's Face? The Steelers had plenty of that today. It's just that Palmer got rid of the ball quickly with confidence because he knew someone would be open because the Steelers had their DB's constantly sit back in a tired old Zone Defense that's no longer fooling anybody.

[fansince'76]

What do you mean be "Pressure"? Having the Front 7 in Palmer's Face? The Steelers had plenty of that today. It's just that Palmer got rid of the ball quickly with confidence because he knew someone would be open because the Steelers had their DB's constantly sit back in a tired old Zone Defense that's no longer fooling anybody.

How many times did we knock Palmer on his ass? The Cards knocked Brady on his 4 times and put Vick on his 5 times. That makes a difference.

[st33lersguy]

Oh, and Vick and the Eagles are MASSIVELY overrated.

Sure as hell still 5x the team Crappy Carson Palmer and the Suckland Raiders are

[steelreserve]

Alright guys, let's take a deep breath. This knee-jerk reaction song and dance is getting stale. Let's take a day to collect ourselves before we start deciding to fire and bench everyone.

I don't think this is knee-jerking over one game. We've had serious problems in all three games. Twice it's cost us losses against teams that ordinarily I'd say we should've beaten. And frankly, both the Broncos and the Raiders embarrassed us in the second half.

Not that I think firing and benching people is the answer at this point; we're kind of stuck with who we've got. But if things don't change drastically, this has the feeling of one of those seasons where in a couple months we're 7-6 and needing help to get into the playoffs, and even if we do, we go out in the first round. They need to fix this or if they can't, take their chances.

[Chidi29]

But no one was looking to fire LeBeau after last week's win. This week...off with his head!

It's knee-jerk and all the talk will go away if we beat the Eagles. And then resurface come the next loss.

[Edman]

How many times did we knock Palmer on his ass? The Cards knocked Brady on his 4 times and put Vick on his 5 times. That makes a difference.

We didn't exactly knock Mark Sanchez on his ass either, and the Jets only scored 10 points, being held scoreless the rest of the game. Surely there must be something different the Steelers did, like not sitting back and not letting Dirty and receivers carve them up in a zone as they did in their early drives of the game.

Pressure isn't just about getting to the QB and smacking him, it's making the receivers work too. The Steelers didn't do that, and that's why Palmer could play pitch and catch with free running receivers no matter how many guys the Steelers sent after him. Too preoccupied with "avoiding the big play" when the Raiders are screaming up and down the field with easy passes anyway.

[Shoes]

But no one was looking to fire LeBeau after last week's win. This week...off with his head!

It's knee-jerk and all the talk will go away if we beat the Eagles. And then resurface come the next loss.

I don't think anyone is looking to fire LeBeau this season....but it should be his last season. That's a big IF on beating the Eagles......this defense problem won't go away this year my friend.

[Chidi29]

I don't think anyone is looking to fire LeBeau this season....but it should be his last season. That's a big IF on beating the Eagles......this defense problem won't go away this year my friend.

However you want to spin it, it's still knee-jerk.

[Shoes]

However you want to spin it, it's still knee-jerk.



You need to get a hobby :chuckle:

[fansince'76]

We didn't exactly knock Mark Sanchez on his ass either, and the Jets only scored 10 points, being held scoreless the rest of the game. Surely there must be something different the Steelers did, like not sitting back and not letting Dirty and receivers carve them up in a zone as they did in their early drives of the game.

Pressure isn't just about getting to the QB and smacking him, it's making the receivers work too. The Steelers didn't do that, and that's why Palmer could play pitch and catch with free running receivers no matter how many guys the Steelers sent after him. Too preoccupied with "avoiding the big play" when the Raiders are screaming up and down the field with easy passes anyway.

I seem to recall Sanchez not doing a thing the rest of the day after Timmons planted him. But yeah, I alluded to the coverage (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/14582-Worst-Steelers-defense-since?p=312587#post312587) after that game as well.

[steelreserve]

But no one was looking to fire LeBeau after last week's win. This week...off with his head!

It's knee-jerk and all the talk will go away if we beat the Eagles. And then resurface come the next loss.

Meh. Looks the same to me as it did with Arians. The people who didn't like him anyway use a bad game to state their point. Which, yeah, is way oversimplifying things if you're just saying "Fire ____" and that's all there is to it. But this team really looks like it has issues that go beyond that. Not just because it was a loss, or because it means we're 1-2, but because the way we lost raises some pretty serious questions about our ability to contend for a Super Bowl, which is the goal.

[Chidi29]

Meh. Looks the same to me as it did with Arians. The people who didn't like him anyway use a bad game to state their point. Which, yeah, is way oversimplifying things if you're just saying "Fire ____" and that's all there is to it. But this team really looks like it has issues that go beyond that. Not just because it was a loss, or because it means we're 1-2, but because the way we lost raises some pretty serious questions about our ability to contend for a Super Bowl, which is the goal.

And there you go. The entire situation has been oversimplified.

[Shoes]

However you want to spin it, it's still knee-jerk.


So you don't think Butler should take over LeBeau's position next year?

[Chidi29]

So you don't think Butler should take over LeBeau's position next year?

I think he should whenever LeBeau leaves. But I'm not going to be calling for LeBeau's head like you guys are.

[Shoes]

I think he should whenever LeBeau leaves. But I'm not going to be calling for LeBeau's head like you guys are.

Well he (Butler) almost left this off season. So you would let Butler walk and keep LeBeau?

[steelreserve]

And there you go. The entire situation has been oversimplified.

Yeah, but unlike the typical knee-jerking after a random loss, being worried is actually a pretty good response right now. Because from everything I can see, we've still got BIG problems to work out. Perhaps some people have trouble expressing that calmly, but for the first time in a while, I wouldn't chalk it all up as "sky-is-falling."

[Chidi29]

Well he (Butler) almost left this off season. So you would let Butler walk and keep LeBeau?

Nope. Keep giving him raises and promises like we have been that's kept him around so far. Not like LeBeau is going to keep coaching for another 10 years.

[Shoes]

Nope. Keep giving him raises and promises like we have been that's kept him around so far. Not like LeBeau is going to keep coaching for another 10 years.

No offense Chid ....but I sure wouldn't want to share a fox hole with ya. :chuckle:

[Chidi29]

No offense Chid ....but I sure wouldn't want to share a fox hole with ya. :chuckle:

And I don't want to be in the same place as the guys that want to abandon ship the moment things start to go wrong.

[Steelman]

I don't think any (well, most) of us are calling for LeBeau's head, and it might be a little knee-jerk, but I think we're beginning to see more and more what many of us have feared was coming; namely our defensive scheme isn't meshing with our current pool of talent. It's no joke that we when we play more man we have a better time of it. The game against New England last year was one of our best defensive outings in awhile. But we still play zone and let people dink and dunk all the way down the field in an effort "to not give up the big play."

I think we need to take that risk again now

[LLT]

I thought I would never say this but the loss of William Gay hurt and has left a void. Is there any other explanation how the Cardinals are 3-0 with Gay after containing Tom Brady's high-octane offense and shutting down Mike Vick's offense, and these sorry ass wastes of space can't even stop Crappy Carson Palmer and his cerebrum of crappy WRs?

Well first of all....we are only three games into the season and that is hardly enough to conclude that Gay has suddenly became a shutdown corner. Secondly....if you want to look at the difference between the success of the Cardinals defense this year compared to the struggles of the Steelers, its not the cornerbacks that you should be focused on but rather the contrast between our linebackers. The Cardinals linebacking corps has managed 9 sacks in three games while our linebackers have managed 4...and NONE on the right side of the defense. If we could put pressure on the QB like the Cardinals defense has been doing....forcing the QB's into quicker reads and errant throws...then our cornerbacks and safeties would look better also.

William Gay is still William Gay....Lewis and Allen are both as good if not better CB's than he is.


By the way.....I think everyone is forgetting....we are one game back.

[Steeldude]

Well I wrote a long reply, but when I clicked "Post" it logged me back in.

I'll make it short. IMO, it's a little of everything.

1. The defense appears to lack the talent. Does the DL even compare to Seals, Steed and Buckner? Does the LB corps compare to Lloyd, Brown, Kirkland and Green? Timmons doesn't seem to make many impact plays. Come on, Foote as a starter? If the LBs make the defense run then why aren't they? Is the DL failing to fill gaps and absorb blocks? Or are the LBs failing to take proper angles or read plays correctly?

2. Fundamentals and/or coaching? The DBs look lost. Why the constant shoving/grabbing down field? Can someone inform the defense that the offense does have a TE when in the red zone?

3. Discipline? Are players taking care of what is required of them? Are they focused? What's with the lame celebrations after routine plays. Get your head in the game and ready for the next play. Who has time to think about dancing when a game is being played?

4. Besides Polamalu, who in the secondary isn't expendable? Perhaps Taylor, but he isn't exactly elite. He has the physical ability, but lacks the brain, in my opinion.

5. The scheme may have run its course. Do the Steelers really strike fear into opposing offenses? IMO, I don't see the fear it once instilled.


The Steelers personnel maybe better suited for a 4-3. I am not suggesting they change schemes now. 2012 will probably be Lebeau's last year. I am fine with the 3-4, but something needs to change. Maybe a new DC(Butler) will breathe new energy into the defense. Before the rah-rah fans start crying, I am not saying fire Lebeau, but he is not without blame.

It's difficult to say where the problem(s) is located. Luckily it's the 3rd game, but losing to teams that you are supposed to crush doesn't bode well for the future. The Steelers should be 3-0.

[pepsyman1]

I think we've got a combination of things happening at this point. Others are right, the D line is struggling. I personally think Hampton has reached the end of the line. I think McClendon should be starting...he had a strong preseason and was constantly pushing the line forward into the QB's lane. Obviously, we still don't have a shut down corner opposite Ike and we still deal with Coach D's soft corner approach. He's not mixing it up as much as he used to...maybe that's because he doesn't have Troy or Harrison or both, but regardless, if the scheme is an effective one then one or two players shouldnt derail it. Part of the scheme is SUPPOSED to be deception, but we aren't seeing any of that. When Coach D put the game plan together for New England we were very aggressive with man coverage BUT it wasn't exclusively used throughout the game...he mixed it up. He's being predictable, I assume because of the injuries. He's gotta come up with a better plan B, then just accepting that he's gonna be more passive because we are missing two 30something year old guys

[steelreserve]

The Steelers personnel maybe better suited for a 4-3. I am not suggesting they change schemes now. 2012 will probably be Lebeau's last year. I am fine with the 3-4, but something needs to change. Maybe a new DC(Butler) will breathe new energy into the defense. Before the rah-rah fans start crying, I am not saying fire Lebeau, but he is not without blame.

I've been wondering about this same thing for a while. Mainly because to keep a 3-4 working like it's supposed to, you need 3 BADASS linemen, and 3 BADASS linebackers including both edges. To make a 4-3 work, you really only need 4 EFFECTIVE linemen and two badass LBs. Right now we have no badass linemen but about 5 effective ones, plus three really good linebackers (all of whom can play the outside) but in the 3-4 we're stretched thin all the time from injuries.

More importantly, I don't see us having the players to keep up the 3-4 well in the future, and no real prospect of getting them. Take your pick of Hood, Heyward, McLendon and the fat man (Ta'amu), and I don't see a great defensive line in the 3-4. They'd probably work well as a 4-3 though, and having Foote off the field would not b a huge loss. Fact is the 3-4 became a fad, and teams started identifying that type of player, and started snapping up the guys best suited for 3-4 DE or NT well ahead of us (and then doing nothing with them, but that's another story). You gotta roll with the times, and the times have rolled.

[stillers4me]

And I don't want to be in the same place as the guys that want to abandon ship the moment things start to go wrong.

Things just didn't start going wrong. It's been happening for along time. You could see it happening last year and it'as getting worse. Ben is playing at about the highest level I've ever seen him play and the defense is shitting the bed.

[suitanim]

This is always the case, and has been for at least the last 30 years. If the Steelers lose a couple games, or take a bad loss, people start panicking and looking to fire people or throw players under the bus. It's silly.

We need Troy and Harrison back. Can we at least wait until the defense is HEALTHY and play a couple games that way before we start firing LeBeau or abandoning the 3-4? Geesh.

[zulater]

But the one that sticks out, fair or not, is that Lawrence Timmons again failed to show. He had all of three tackles. I isolated on No. 94 one long drive, and I’d swear he touched an enemy jersey once in anger and spent the rest of the time dropping back to cover … no one.

With Polamalu and James Harrison out, someone has to make plays.

I asked Timmons if he felt he should be that player.

“I’m definitely one of those guys. I want to make plays for the defense,” he said. “But you’re right: We do need to have guys step up. We just didn’t make enough plays.”

Let’s not stop with the athletes.

Is it ever OK to question the defensive coordinator’s plan?

Few have achieved more in football than Dick LeBeau, as a player, as a coach, as a man. He’s a treasure in every way.

But if you saw adjustments out there to what Palmer and the Oakland offense were generating in the second half, feel free to share. If you saw logic to rushing only four guys on a late third-and-9, if you saw any purpose to what Timmons was assigned to do all day, if you saw any creative ways concocted to get a pass rush off the right side — Chris Carter and Jason Worilds weren’t getting it done — feel free to share.

I asked several players if the second half was a case of the Raiders changing things up.

“That wasn’t it,” Keisel said. “They made the plays, and we didn’t make plays.”

That was universally echoed, but sorry, it can’t work as a universal explanation if one team is making the same plays again and again, and the opponent is staying with the same scheme again and again.

Been saying it for three weeks, and I’ll repeat: The Steelers must be the aggressors on defense. Playing it safe is achieving nothing more than exposing their weaknesses.

And those weaknesses look a lot more pointed now than they did before this miserable outcome.

Chew on that.



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[Edman]

But the one that sticks out, fair or not, is that Lawrence Timmons again failed to show. He had all of three tackles. I isolated on No. 94 one long drive, and I’d swear he touched an enemy jersey once in anger and spent the rest of the time dropping back to cover … no one.

With Polamalu and James Harrison out, someone has to make plays.

I asked Timmons if he felt he should be that player.

“I’m definitely one of those guys. I want to make plays for the defense,” he said. “But you’re right: We do need to have guys step up. We just didn’t make enough plays.”

Let’s not stop with the athletes.

Is it ever OK to question the defensive coordinator’s plan?

Few have achieved more in football than Dick LeBeau, as a player, as a coach, as a man. He’s a treasure in every way.

But if you saw adjustments out there to what Palmer and the Oakland offense were generating in the second half, feel free to share. If you saw logic to rushing only four guys on a late third-and-9, if you saw any purpose to what Timmons was assigned to do all day, if you saw any creative ways concocted to get a pass rush off the right side — Chris Carter and Jason Worilds weren’t getting it done — feel free to share.

I asked several players if the second half was a case of the Raiders changing things up.

“That wasn’t it,” Keisel said. “They made the plays, and we didn’t make plays.”

That was universally echoed, but sorry, it can’t work as a universal explanation if one team is making the same plays again and again, and the opponent is staying with the same scheme again and again.

Been saying it for three weeks, and I’ll repeat: The Steelers must be the aggressors on defense. Playing it safe is achieving nothing more than exposing their weaknesses.

And those weaknesses look a lot more pointed now than they did before this miserable outcome.

Chew on that.


TRANSLATION: Throw this 10-Yard Cushion Zone Defense bullshit out the window. We don't have the personnel and the pass rush isn't getting there to run it. Even then, QB's can just sit back there and heave it knowing someone will be open because our Genius Coordinator has our DB's constantly playing off of receivers. Three failures in a row is proof in the pudding. The League has caught on to the Lebeau Zone D. It's not fooling anyone. Before you say Troy is the answer to all their problems, he played in the Denver game, and it was still ineffective.

Stop the Big Play? The Broncos, Jets (1st two drives), and Raiders were more than happy to go short and middle all game, which are big plays on it's own.

If the Steelers don't look at this game and see that the Cushy Zone Defense is the main contributing factor to their 1-2 Start, Heads need to start rolling, or at least hope the Offense can start putting up 40 or more from now on.

[zulater]

TRANSLATION: Throw the Cushion Zone Defense out the window. We don't have the personnel and the pass rush isn't getting there to run it. Even then, QB's can just sit back there and heave it knowing someone will be open because our Genius Coordinator has our DB's playing the damn cushion. Three failures in a row is proof in the pudding. The League has caught on to the Lebeau Zone D.

Add to it the misuse of Timmons and Woodley. Players who can make a difference if given a chance.

[Edman]

Add to it the misuse of Timmons and Woodley. Players who can make a difference if given a chance.

It's Mis-Use of our Defensive Talent in General. We're constantly asking Hood and Heyward to Hand-Fight and Drop in coverage every game. They're not Aaron Smith and Kimo Von Oelhoffen. No wonder they're not looking like 1st Round standouts as they should be.

We're asking Cortez Allen and Keenan Lewis to be Deshea Townsend. Any CB can look awful when he's asked to play off a receiver and he catches it.

And of course we're asking Timmons and Woodley to stand back and do nothing. Timmons is doing his damndest, but Dick keeps dicking him around with this bullshit cushion.

Of course Lebeau Apologists will say the players are bad and busts when the fact is the scheme is tired, worn out, and predictable. A Coordinator fine tunes his scheme to fit the players. Hood and Heyward are hard-charging motors and very athletic. Why are we constantly asking them to titty fight with Linemen every game? This is the classic case of square peg round hole that we accused Arians of doing.

This is why I don't believe the problem is talent. The Steelers D has plenty of talent, but it's being mis-used for the sake of a dinosaur Defensive Scheme that is slowly being rendered obsolete. The rules have changed, offenses have adjusted, but Lebeau has not. The Cushion Zone Defense is on it's way to extinction in the NFL.

Dick needs to be put on notice.

[NJarhead]

I love Larry Foote, but watching him yesterday, I wonder if he isn't over his head a bit with the new responsibility as the Buck. On the surface he seems to have lost a step, but I don't think that's the case. I think he's mentally overwhelmed and it's making him a bit hesitent because rather than going full bore at the snap, he's processing first and reacting second. Just my thought.

Scheme? I dunno, but another surprise for me was Timmons' underwhelming performance. He's usually pretty good in coverage, but he got beat for 15 on third and 10 by a 3rd or 4th string Oakland TE. You tell me, is it each player's performance? Scheme (That's never been an issue before), or are we missing a few key factors? If so, then we can't say the level of expectation doesn't change when we lose a player to injury, anymore.

Finally, if ya can't sack Carson Palmer, then you're probably not a very good defense.

[NCSteeler]

Does anyone remember the years following the Siragusa anchored line retiring and falling apart in Baltimore. Ray Lewis completely disappeared from the stat sheet. That is a little of what is happening with Timmons. I'm reading alot about scheme and Troy and James, but this entire defensive team is different than seasons past. If anyone thought it would be easy to drop Smith(the best ever 3-4 DE), Farrior (a true warrior in run defense), an Aging oft injured Hampton (in his prime one of the greatest NT), and change up 3/4s of the secondary, now throw in a missing Troy(who a sure HOFer, is only getting older everyday) and a missing Harrison (whose one trick pony is wore out) your have been kidding yourselves. Most understood that entering this season the O was going to have to carry us to wins and they were doing that yesterday, but there is no margin for errors. The Raiders D tuned in to the fact that our fast and reckless WRs are quite reckless with the ball. While they were celebrating Abs fumble recovery TD, I sure would have liked to see a shot of Haley crawling in his keester, but that turn of good fortune only left him thinking of continuing to be reckless with the ball and that cost us the game. How many times in the last 5-8 games have you seen Wallace , Brown and Sanders running with the ball and you were like "crap man tuck that thing in, hold on to it"

For all those ready to ditch our last 2-3 years of 1st round draft picks, remember we have been so good that they are all darn near 2nd round talent. I do wonder though if some fit our scheme very well. It does take time to convince a college DE that his job is not to rush the passer, his goal is to consume lineman and let the others do the work. This is one thing we have been missing with the new DEs.

Bottom line our Defense sucks or is growing and learning with new players, but the O has the burden either way.

[Chidi29]

That defense was not that soft. I don't know what game you guys were watching. There were plenty of safety blitzes. And that's why our corners were playing off because there isn't any safety help over the top. Don't want to get beat deep and give up the big play.

[Devilsdancefloor]

We adjusted fine after Sanchez carved them up, and for some reason, we didn't bother changing things up in this game.

press coverage we get pressure and get off the field,but when we stay zone we get toasted. i think the NFL has caught up to the scheme a bit, but hopefully they see what we see and man up!

[suitanim]

So, I guess the answer is "No". We CANNOT wait until the defense is healthy before we start trashing the players and the coaches.

Ok, then....

[Chidi29]

If you guys were DCs, you'd all be running bump and run Cover 0 every play and give up four 50+ gains each game...

[Edman]

That defense was not that soft. I don't know what game you guys were watching. There were plenty of safety blitzes. And that's why our corners were playing off because there isn't any safety help over the top. Don't want to get beat deep and give up the big play.

The Defense was that soft. Raider WR's were basically running free through the secondary and when they caught the ball, they were either in stride with no Steeler within yards of him, just like in Denver and early on against New York. That's the product of the Cushy Lebeau Zone Defense. Manning tore it apart, Palmer tore it apart, and if they didn't make any adjustments, Sanchez was going to tear it a new one too.

We make mediocre offenses look great because we're afraid of challenging them in the secondary. We choose to sit back instead of attack, and they'll gladly take short and middle.

[Edman]

If you guys were DCs, you'd all be running bump and run Cover 0 every play and give up four 50+ gains each game...

The Steelers played aggressive B&R 2nd half against New York. They surrendered 0 points.

The Steelers played Cushy Zone against Denver, New York 1st Half, now Oakland. They surrendered 68 Points and they contributed mightily to both losses. But hey, at least they stopped those big plays, though. So it's all good. Lebeau is a genius.

[Chidi29]

The Defense was that soft. Raider WR's were basically running free through the secondary and when they caught the ball, they were either in stride with no Steeler within yards of him, just like in Denver and early on against New York. That's the product of the Cushy Lebeau Zone Defense. Manning tore it apart, Palmer tore it apart, and if they didn't make any adjustments, Sanchez was going to tear it a new one too.

We make mediocre offenses look great because we're afraid of challenging them in the secondary. We choose to sit back instead of attack, and they'll gladly take short and middle.

I dunno, from what I've been seeing, the defenses don't look too radically different.

And we blitzed a lot against Oakland. That means your corners have to play off and respect the deep ball. That's how it works and why you guys are oversimplifying things.

[zulater]

It's Mis-Use of our Defensive Talent in General. We're constantly asking Hood and Heyward to Hand-Fight and Drop in coverage every game. They're not Aaron Smith and Kimo Von Oelhoffen. No wonder they're not looking like 1st Round standouts as they should be.

We're asking Cortez Allen and Keenan Lewis to be Deshea Townsend. Any CB can look awful when he's asked to play off a receiver and he catches it.

And of course we're asking Timmons and Woodley to stand back and do nothing. Timmons is doing his damndest, but Dick keeps dicking him around with this bullshit cushion.

Of course Lebeau Apologists will say the players are bad and busts when the fact is the scheme is tired, worn out, and predictable. A Coordinator fine tunes his scheme to fit the players. Hood and Heyward are hard-charging motors and very athletic. Why are we constantly asking them to titty fight with Linemen every game? This is the classic case of square peg round hole that we accused Arians of doing.

This is why I don't believe the problem is talent. The Steelers D has plenty of talent, but it's being mis-used for the sake of a dinosaur Defensive Scheme that is slowly being rendered obsolete. The rules have changed, offenses have adjusted, but Lebeau has not. The Cushion Zone Defense is on it's way to extinction in the NFL.

Dick needs to be put on notice.

Hate to do it, but I agree on virtually every point.

Maybe things will get better on their own? But I doubt it.

[zulater]

So, I guess the answer is "No". We CANNOT wait until the defense is healthy before we start trashing the players and the coaches.

Ok, then....

Waiting on Harrison and Troy to not only return, but play at impact-full level is sorta like waiting to hit the lottery to pay off your bills. Great if it happen's, but too much of a gamble to place any long term needs in that bank.

[steelreserve]

I dunno, from what I've been seeing, the defenses don't look too radically different.

And we blitzed a lot against Oakland. That means your corners have to play off and respect the deep ball. That's how it works and why you guys are oversimplifying things.

We blitzed a lot? That's news to me. Maybe it just didn't seem like we were blitzing because we hardly got any pressure on the quarterback.

What I'd really like to know is: How many times did Hood, Hampton or Heyward draw a double-team versus being blocked effectively with one guy. That right there might be the answer to a lot of our questions about pressure when you consider how it affects the other guys. Woodley against a tight end might be a winning battle for us, but not Woodley against an offensive tackle. Just like Worilds or a DB against a running back works a lot better than Worilds or a DB against a tight end or a lineman.

[Craic]

So, I guess the answer is "No". We CANNOT wait until the defense is healthy before we start trashing the players and the coaches.

Ok, then....

I think that's part of the problem, though. When a scheme is so dependent on certain players to be effective, then the two obvious questions are 1. are the players that are playing good enough for the scheme, and/or 2. Is the scheme really a good scheme if it falls apart when two players are out?

That's been my problem with LeBeau's Troy P. version of the fireblitz. When Troy is injured, out, or having to play true safety because Ryan Clark is out, this is often the result. I'd think that a scheme should have a larger injury factor allowance than that.

[Chidi29]

We blitzed a lot? That's news to me. Maybe it just didn't seem like we were blitzing because we hardly got any pressure on the quarterback.

What I'd really like to know is: How many times did Hood, Hampton or Heyward draw a double-team versus being blocked effectively with one guy. That right there might be the answer to a lot of our questions about pressure when you consider how it affects the other guys. Woodley against a tight end might be a winning battle for us, but not Woodley against an offensive tackle. Just like Worilds or a DB against a running back works a lot better than Worilds or a DB against a tight end or a lineman.

I saw a ton of safety blitzes. Saw it last week, too.

I can't say for sure, but I doubt Aaron Smith was ever double-teamed on a passing down (if that's what your getting at). That isn't where your pass rush is coming from.

[atlsteelers]

Lots of football left to played. My guess is the defense will rebound and settledown and we will make a run at the playoffs. Worse case scenario is that cam hayward really does blow (the kid looks loost), keisel is washed up or was living off of a harrison being double teamed, harrison and troy are over the hill and are going limp out of town, and timmons will never live up to the hype. Other than woodley the young guys stink. Does mundy have pictures of tomlin cheating on his wife? does he ever take the correct angle?

[86WARD]

It's a combination. LeBeau has to make adjustments...which he doesn't always do. Players need to be able to execute...which they don't do.

Old and slow? Lol.

[suitanim]

I think that's part of the problem, though. When a scheme is so dependent on certain players to be effective, then the two obvious questions are 1. are the players that are playing good enough for the scheme, and/or 2. Is the scheme really a good scheme if it falls apart when two players are out?

That's been my problem with LeBeau's Troy P. version of the fireblitz. When Troy is injured, out, or having to play true safety because Ryan Clark is out, this is often the result. I'd think that a scheme should have a larger injury factor allowance than that.

So do we play to our strengths or not? LeBeau was a great DC before Harrison and Troy, so it's not like they "made him". He's just created a D that's based on those guys being healthy and productive.

[Steeltreal]

Heyward and Hood are victims of wrong scheme. If we went to 4-2-5 nickel with those 2 playing DE they should be more effective.Im really tired of seeing OLB dropping into coverage on 3 rd and long problem is theres only 1 DT active McClendon. Taamu will take time but having a useless Mendenhall off the pup made no sense. not that any of this matters after the bye

[Craic]

So do we play to our strengths or not? LeBeau was a great DC before Harrison and Troy, so it's not like they "made him". He's just created a D that's based on those guys being healthy and productive.

Yes, he was. However, who were his players then?

Rod Woodson
Carnell Lake
Kevin Greene
Greg Lloyd
Jason Gildon
Levon Kirland
Earl Holmes.

Not all of them were superstars, but you have at least three of them that rank right up there with the top three of today's Steelers. T

Then, when LeBeau came back to Pittsburgh after going to be a head coach in Cincy, who did he have?

James Farrior,
Troy Polamalu
Joey Porter
Aaron Smith
Casey Hampton
Ike Taylor
Kimo von Oelhoffen.
and sitting on the bench, Harrison.

So, he may have been a great DC before Harrison, but he's only been here for 2 years without Troy P. and those two years, he had Lake and Woodson.

My point is, sure, you play to your strengths, but you also create a system that doesn't fall flat if one or two of your guys are out. You CAN'T base a system on your top two guys being healthy and productive, because in the NFL, there is NO guarantee that they will be from game to game. OR, you build into it wrinkles and changes that accommodate them being out, and then draft players to fit the accommodation if you can't draft another player to fit the spot you've created for a specific skill set.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not on the "Fire Lebeau" bandwagon by any stretch of the imagination. I'm pointing out what I've considered a long-time weakness of his system.

[steelreserve]

My point is, sure, you play to your strengths, but you also create a system that doesn't fall flat if one or two of your guys are out. You CAN'T base a system on your top two guys being healthy and productive, because in the NFL, there is NO guarantee that they will be from game to game. OR, you build into it wrinkles and changes that accommodate them being out, and then draft players to fit the accommodation if you can't draft another player to fit the spot you've created for a specific skill set.

That is a huge weakness, and you can add Clark to the list of players who can't be missing, since any time he's out we basically get to play without Troy too. It really sucks that any time EITHER of the starting safeties can't play, the whole defense goes soft.

[ALLD]

Prevent defense has got to go. That being said, lack of overall talent is the biggest disappointment. Coaching has not dropped to Nora Turner levels, but we also have no depth past our best 15 players.

[Edman]

My point is, sure, you play to your strengths, but you also create a system that doesn't fall flat if one or two of your guys are out. You CAN'T base a system on your top two guys being healthy and productive, because in the NFL, there is NO guarantee that they will be from game to game. OR, you build into it wrinkles and changes that accommodate them being out, and then draft players to fit the accommodation if you can't draft another player to fit the spot you've created for a specific skill set.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not on the "Fire Lebeau" bandwagon by any stretch of the imagination. I'm pointing out what I've considered a long-time weakness of his system.

That's on Lebeau. He keeps playing the Zone D like the 2008 Steelers are still out there, but they're not out there. The Personnel are different. The League is Different. It's not 2008 anymore. Hell, it's not 1994 anymore. Offenses have changed. Rules have changed, but this Defense has not.

Heyward and Hood are not Brett Kiesel, Kimo Von Oelhoffen, or Aaron Smith. Cortez Allen and Keenan Lewis are not Deshea Townsend or Bryant McFadden. They are a different breed of athlete that we've been used to seeing in Pittsburgh. They are new blood. We're wasting this new blood on an old and tired scheme that has become predictable and needs one player to truly work effectively. That's not on the players. That's on the Coordinator for not fine-tuning his scheme to suit his players.

[BigNastyDefense]

It's a combo of both. The scheme changes when Polamalu cannot play because nobody else can do what he does. It doesn't help that we don't have a talented safety behind him, instead we have Mundy who is average at best. I remember back when the Steeler were able to replace outside linebackers like most people change their socks. Greg Lloyd to Joey Porter to James Harrison. Clark Haggans to LaMarr Woodley. There isn't anyone that can step in and rush the passer on the left side.

The backups aren't starters in waiting and the scheme is dumbed down without the best safety in the game. That's simply it. We need to find better backups because the guys we have now just won't cut it.

[zulater]

MAYBE IT’S NOT THE SCHEMES
Several Raiders players said the Steelers’ blitzes and pass coverages were predictable at times. But maybe it’s not the schemes, maybe it’s the players carrying them out. The Steelers have only five sacks, and the pressure has been nonexistent at times.
Lawrence Timmons isn’t making the impact predicted of him. LaMarr Woodley is seeing more double teams than Randy Moss in his prime. The defensive linemen aren’t getting penetration, as evidenced by their zero tackles for losses.


Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/2657163-85/steelers-games-game-past-season-signs-1-2-running-sign-bad#ixzz27TaGqpqz
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

[suitanim]

MAYBE IT’S NOT THE SCHEMES
Several Raiders players said the Steelers’ blitzes and pass coverages were predictable at times. But maybe it’s not the schemes, maybe it’s the players carrying them out. The Steelers have only five sacks, and the pressure has been nonexistent at times.
Lawrence Timmons isn’t making the impact predicted of him. LaMarr Woodley is seeing more double teams than Randy Moss in his prime. The defensive linemen aren’t getting penetration, as evidenced by their zero tackles for losses.


Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/2657163-85/steelers-games-game-past-season-signs-1-2-running-sign-bad#ixzz27TaGqpqz
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook


Fact is, though, we are dropping Timmons and Woodley into coverage a lot more now. Neither is doing that awful for a job, but you can't be playing the run AND pressuring the QB AND dropping into coverage all at once.

This to me goes back to the issues we've had when a CB goes down. We shift safeties over to compensate, and it creates a weakness in the secondary. Troy can't be Troy when he's also asked to pick-up CB responsibilities. In THIS case, Mundy is NOT Troy, and he's not even Clark, so we suffer when Troy isn't out there generally disrupting things. Even the most cerebral QB ever (Peyton Manning) was visibly disrupted by Troy's presence in game one. It's a HUGE loss to play without him.

When you have a defense predicated on all the cogs being in the wheel, then you pull two (or three) of the most important out, it has an exponentially bad effect. That's why teams that have a bad defense one year make major improvements simply by adding one or two key players. And THAT'S why we are panicking too early.

Now, when Troy is gone, we will create new schemes based on different strengths, but this defense is still his, and we will still be wounded without him.

[Edman]

It's a combo of both. The scheme changes when Polamalu cannot play because nobody else can do what he does.

Then care to explain the Denver game? We had Troy in that game, and the Defense was still ineffective. Oh, he was hurt right? One of the Classic Lebeau excuses for his dinosaur scheme. It's the players, age, the stars aren't aligned properly, it's Tomlin's fault, it's Colbert's fault. No, Dick's scheme is just crap.

The Scheme changed in the second half of the Jets game (Because true to form, it wasn't working), you saw what happened.

The Scheme didn't change in Oakland (When it clearly wasn't working), and you saw what happened.

When a scheme needs one or more players to be 100% healthy to work, it's not a good scheme, period. Lebeau the genius put his ego out there and got his lunch money stolen by a bad offense, plain and simple.

[suitanim]

I used one example. Deebo being out is another. Chris Carter is basically a placemat compared to Harrison. Not only does he generally hurt us being out, it also allows teams to cheat their TE over to the right and help out with Woodley whenever they need to.

I hate to use this analogy again, but in today's uber-complex defensive schemes, you can't be thinking in checkers terms to play chess. Every little thing has implications 5 moves down the line. ONE PLAYER makes a difference, and we were out 2 key players (Clark was also out and Troy was STILL very effective).

That's why I'm not worried yet. The DL's job is to occupy blockers to filter things back to the LB's, and shortages in the secondary have meant that we've had to cheat those same LB's back into coverage more. When we are 100% healthy, with Clark and Troy on the field, and Harrison back at OLB, and we have problems, then, and ONLY THEN, will I be concerned. Right now there are mitigating circumstances. Trying to assess this defense right now is not possible.

[Edman]

More excuses for Dick. More ignorance of the Denver and Jets game.

NYJ: No Troy, no Harrison. Defense pitches a second-half shutout on an Offense that scored 48 points the week before. 10 points given up total.

Denver: Troy is in the game, the Defense gets shredded. 24 Points given up.

I look at what's happened as evidence, but you seem to want to play the wait and see game. I'm not worried about the Defense anymore. I'm worried about the Defensive Coordinator and his ability to scheme a competent Defense now.

[suitanim]

More excuses for Dick. More ignorance of the Denver and Jets game.

NYJ: No Troy, no Harrison. Defense pitches a second-half shutout on an Offense that scored 48 points the week before. 10 points given up total.

Denver: Troy is in the game, the Defense gets shredded. 24 Points given up.

I look at what's happened as evidence, but you seem to want to play the wait and see game. I'm not worried about the Defense anymore. I'm worried about the Defensive Coordinator and his ability to scheme a competent Defense now.

Look, I'll listen politely to your complaints and bellyaching but DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF IGNORANCE. This (and others) board is littered with people who get angry and fly off the handle after every loss. The OC, the players, the HC, it doesn't matter, there's always blame being bandied about. Why can't we just wait until the motherfucking defense is at full strength for ONE GAME before we all the whining and bitching and crying and bellyaching starts? Jesus Christ, people, grow the fuck up! Every loss means the season is gone, the players all suck, the coaches are old or stupid or the game has passed them by...it gets old year after year after year.

It would be different if this was the first time we've heard this weak-assed complaint before, but it's been going on for at LEAST 5 years. According to some of you brainiacs, LeBeau should have been fired in the early 2000's.

I'm outta the football side. It's the same garbage every year. Every time we lose people start getting retarded...

[Steeldude]

Not only does he generally hurt us being out, it also allows teams to cheat their TE over to the right and help out with Woodley whenever they need to.

Lmao. Isn't Woodley usually taken care of by a lone TE.

[suitanim]

Then, of course, there are some people who are always retarded, win or lose.

[Steeldude]

Then, of course, there are some people who are always retarded, win or lose.

Like the people who thought Kordell was a great QB and should have never been let go. Who was that...hmmm...oh yeah I remember now...lol

[Chidi29]

It's a combo of both. The scheme changes when Polamalu cannot play because nobody else can do what he does.

Then care to explain the Denver game? We had Troy in that game, and the Defense was still ineffective. Oh, he was hurt right? One of the Classic Lebeau excuses for his dinosaur scheme. It's the players, age, the stars aren't aligned properly, it's Tomlin's fault, it's Colbert's fault. No, Dick's scheme is just crap.

The Scheme changed in the second half of the Jets game (Because true to form, it wasn't working), you saw what happened.

The Scheme didn't change in Oakland (When it clearly wasn't working), and you saw what happened.

When a scheme needs one or more players to be 100% healthy to work, it's not a good scheme, period. Lebeau the genius put his ego out there and got his lunch money stolen by a bad offense, plain and simple.

I'd like to see you clarify by what you mean when you say the scheme "changed" in the second half of the Jets game. Because I didn't see anything noticeably different. Please be as specific as you can.

[NCSteeler]

Maybe this all comes back to communication. We all know Potsy was the cog in this defense for a long time. He held all the communication responsibilities, I remember this offseason they said that would fall on Troy and now he's out too. WHo is making the calls on the field now?

[zulater]

Maybe this all comes back to communication. We all know Potsy was the cog in this defense for a long time. He held all the communication responsibilities, I remember this offseason they said that would fall on Troy and now he's out too. WHo is making the calls on the field now?

Foote.

[Steelman]

Foote.

Is it always the ILB then? For some reason I thought Clark made the field calls since Farrior left.

[Devilsdancefloor]

Foote makes the calls on the field even when troy is there.

Foote said the first order is for players to start trusting LeBeau's calls, and his system.

"Sometimes, you can get caught up in just trying to play hard and aggressive, but you're not trusting the defense," he said. "Not the other players, but the defense. And that can't happen. The bottom line is that we have to make a play when we get a chance.''

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/nfl-rapidreports/20377897/steelers-lb-larry-foote-knows-defense-has-work-to-do

[Devilsdancefloor]

I'd like to see you clarify by what you mean when you say the scheme "changed" in the second half of the Jets game. Because I didn't see anything noticeably different. Please be as specific as you can.

From memory after tone scored his TD the DB's went press coverage instead of giving the normal 7 yard cushion, but id have to watch the game again to sure

[Craic]

Foote makes the calls on the field even when troy is there.

Foote said the first order is for players to start trusting LeBeau's calls, and his system.

"Sometimes, you can get caught up in just trying to play hard and aggressive, but you're not trusting the defense," he said. "Not the other players, but the defense. And that can't happen. The bottom line is that we have to make a play when we get a chance.''

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/nfl-rapidreports/20377897/steelers-lb-larry-foote-knows-defense-has-work-to-do

I have to admit, I never even thought about that . . . the players might be overextending themselves to make players, creating wholes in the scheme that are being exploited.

In truth, I really hope this is the issue, because if it is, it's an easy fix. STAY HOME AND DO YOUR PART.

[Chidi29]

From memory after tone scored his TD the DB's went press coverage instead of giving the normal 7 yard cushion, but id have to watch the game again to sure

Remember on the TD that Clark came up and bit on the playaction. So that had less to do with the CBs. And I think the "went to press coverage" is quite an oversimplification.