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View Full Version : Bigger goat, Antonio Brown or defense?



zulater
09-23-2012, 07:20 PM
The defense had an excuse. They suck ass, both collectively and individually, and are coached by a has been. Antonio Brown on the other hand has no excuse. Having already fumbled into the end zone and by a stroke of luck recovering said fumble, how on earth does he fumble on his very next touch? That was it. That play right there was the game. How the hell he inoculated himself from his previous fuck up just because he got away with it is beyond me. :frusty:

We have no defense. We have to win game with our offense. If our offensive players can't show a little more common sense, and know when discretion is the better part of valor then we'll be lucky to win 7 games this year.

Truthfully 7 games is our ceiling with our defense if our offense is anything less than flawless.

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 07:22 PM
defense and this is not even close

Brown made ​​one bad play

defense made several bad play

Carolina Steelers
09-23-2012, 07:23 PM
I say defense, i know brown fumbled twice and lost 1 but he was trying to make a bigger play still no excuse without him maybe were not even that close. Defense disappeard in 2nd half still no splash plays i dont count that 1st int the WR slip

Count Steeler
09-23-2012, 07:24 PM
Brown, to a small extent, he just happened to be the player that coughed it up. You knew we were going to screw it up somehow. I'm just glad it wasn't an INT and everybody would shit on Ben. Our D was horrific. If our defense is that reliant on 43 and 92, then the other 9 guys should be replaced. Absolutely terrible effort from the coaches to the execution.

X-Terminator
09-23-2012, 07:24 PM
Why ANYONE is placing any blame AT ALL on the offense is beyond me. They scored 31 fucking points! That's more than enough to win a game if your defense doesn't completely suck donkey dick.

fansince'76
09-23-2012, 07:25 PM
The Raiders converted at least 6 third downs in a row at one point in the 2nd half. 'Nuff said.

Count Steeler
09-23-2012, 07:26 PM
Why ANYONE is placing any blame AT ALL on the offense is beyond me. They scored 31 fucking points! That's more than enough to win a game if your defense doesn't completely suck donkey dick.

Well, they should have scored 38! :sarcasm:

steelreserve
09-23-2012, 07:26 PM
The defense by far. Oakland was inept, but we just kept flailing around and by the end, we couldn't stop even the most basic attempts at offense. I can't really excuse them giving up more than 14-17 points to those guys, even with the breaks that went against us.

Brown made one bad play, but he also had a lot of good plays to counter it.

Craic
09-23-2012, 07:27 PM
Why ANYONE is placing any blame AT ALL on the offense is beyond me. They scored 31 fucking points! That's more than enough to win a game if your defense doesn't completely suck donkey dick.

Ibid.

:chuckle:



At least Brown's mistake came because he was working his rear off.

zulater
09-23-2012, 07:27 PM
defense and this is not even close

Brown made ​​one bad play

defense made several bad play

One bad play? He fumbled into the end zone his previous touch. That's two very very very awful game changing plays right there. Just because he got away with one doesn't lessen the impact of the screw up.

I mean how the hell does't the first one give him some pause for thought? We didn't need a hero on that second fumble. The play was already made. :frusty:

Like I said before, there's a huge difference between being incapable ( defense), and stupid ( Brown). Brown was much more culpable for the final result imo because he has the ability to be better than that. The defense on the other hand just sucks ass.

steeldawg
09-23-2012, 07:27 PM
Defense The brown fumble was a huge play but the 31 points should win us a game.

SCSTILLER
09-23-2012, 07:28 PM
The Raiders converted at least 6 third downs in a row at one point in the 2nd half. 'Nuff said.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5pESPQpXxE

X-Terminator
09-23-2012, 07:28 PM
Yeah, I think I might take the rest of the night off from here. I'm already about to start throwing shit across the room.

salamander
09-23-2012, 07:29 PM
The defense. End of story.

steeldawg
09-23-2012, 07:29 PM
One bad play? He fumbled into the end zone his previous touch. That's two very very very awful game changing plays right there. Just because he got away with one doesn't lessen the impact of the screw up.

I mean how the hell does't the first one give him some pause for thought? We didn't need a hero on that second fumble. The play was already made. :frusty:

Like I said before, there's a huge difference between being incapable ( defense), and stupid ( Brown). Brown was much more culpable for the final result imo because he has the ability to be better than that. The defense on the other hand just sucks ass.

This is true but eventhough the defense is incapable they are still the bigger goats, because this is the nfl and they get paid to be capable.

Godfather
09-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Defense. If they'd done their job at any point in the second half, Brown might not be pressing like he was and the fumble doesn't happen.

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 07:30 PM
relax

Brown is a young player, yes he made ​​a big mistake, but there had 120 other play in this game and the play on defense was awful

Butch
09-23-2012, 07:30 PM
Let's not forget the O-line who when we got the ball back in our territory went hog wild on false starts and holding. And how bout the Special teams letting up a huge return???

Count Steeler
09-23-2012, 07:31 PM
Oakland was going for the ball all game long. Antonio got nailed because he was trying to win the game. He shouldn't be in that position after scoring 31 points on the road against a team that lost to the Dolphins. No way does this get pinned on Antonio when a whole unit took the game off. Sorry, LeBeau has to be able to get some stops out of this D, with or without 43 & 92. If not, we might as well just mail in the rest of the season.

steelreserve
09-23-2012, 07:32 PM
One bad play? He fumbled into the end zone his previous touch. That's two very very very awful game changing plays right there. Just because he got away with one doesn't lessen the impact of the screw up.

I mean how the hell does't the first one give him some pause for thought? We didn't need a hero on that second fumble. The play was already made. :frusty:

Like I said before, there's a huge difference between being incapable ( defense), and stupid ( Brown). Brown was much more culpable for the final result imo because he has the ability to be better than that. The defense on the other hand just sucks ass.

Brown (and the rest of the offense) was fine, and had a couple of mistakes that were the exception. The defense was consistently bad for about 40 plays in a row. It's not even close.

You can't say the defense is off the hook because they're not capable of playing any better. That's no excuse. They need to do better than that or we'll lose, period.

Steeldude
09-23-2012, 07:32 PM
The defense is by far the bigger goat.

I am not really upset or surprised by this game. The Steelers defense has been going downhill for awhile. It's sad that no one can pick up the slack when Harrison and Polamalu are out.

SteelSgt
09-23-2012, 07:33 PM
Our Defense SUCKS!!!!
:frusty::frusty::frusty:

Shoes
09-23-2012, 07:34 PM
No question defense.....if one can even call it that.

salamander
09-23-2012, 07:34 PM
The defense is by far the bigger goat.

I am not really upset or surprised by this game. The Steelers defense has been going downhill for awhile. It's sad that no one can pick up the slack when Harrison and Polamalu are out.

Which is a scary thought because those 2 are not getting any younger.

Devilsdancefloor
09-23-2012, 07:36 PM
AB works his ass off NO way i can blame him for this loss he did have a sweet punt returned brought back and just always gives 110% on every play. THE DEFENSE is the reason we lost for the life of me i dont understand why we dont press coverage it worked against the jets the Dline isnt keeping the Lbers clean at all. Plus a non existant pass rush i salso killing us even when the steelrs bring the kitchen sink

Edman
09-23-2012, 07:36 PM
The Pittsburgh Doo-Doo has no excuse whatsoever. They are the chief culprit of this loss, period.

GoSlash27
09-23-2012, 07:39 PM
The defense had an excuse. They suck ass, both collectively and individually, and are coached by a has been. Antonio Brown on the other hand has no excuse. Having already fumbled into the end zone and by a stroke of luck recovering said fumble, how on earth does he fumble on his very next touch? That was it. That play right there was the game. How the hell he inoculated himself from his previous fuck up just because he got away with it is beyond me. :frusty:

We have no defense. We have to win game with our offense. If our offensive players can't show a little more common sense, and know when discretion is the better part of valor then we'll be lucky to win 7 games this year.

Truthfully 7 games is our ceiling with our defense if our offense is anything less than flawless.

The exit from the bandwagon is thataway. --->

The story here is turnovers and penalties. Mainly turnovers.

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 07:39 PM
the defense is the reason for the lost of the Steelers

last 5 drives of the raiders....TD,TD,TD,FG,FG....this is not the fault of Antonio Brown

zulater
09-23-2012, 07:43 PM
None of you guys get it do you? Obviously not. Yeah I know the defense is pitiful. But that's just it. They suck, they're incapable of doing any better. If the other team doesn't stop themselves they're toast. Period. End of story. It's like blaming a 8 year old for screwing up dinner.


The offense on the other hand is elite, or damn close to it. But this was a game they couldn't afford not to hold serve on. And guess what Antonio Brown all by himself double faulted our serve away.

Again physical mistakes happen. I can forgive Antonio 100% for the first fumble, even if it would have resulted in a touchback and change of possession ( and loss of touchdown obviously, which 9 out of 10 times it would) . But having survived that, or even hypothetically not surviving it, how the hell, on your very next touch do you cough it up so easily? If it's 4th down and he needed to extend the play to maintain possession, great effort! If time's almost exhausted, and you have to make the play to have any chance to win, so be it. But situational awareness people! He had the first! The clock wasn't an issue! Make your yards, but go the fuck down when it's time!

Again, I'm not defending the defense. They're useless. They don't have the ability to do squat. But Antonio needed to learn something from his previous fumble. Clearly he didn't. Hopefully he can learn to be more situationally aware in the future.

86WARD
09-23-2012, 07:43 PM
Defense. Not even a debate. Brown and the offense wouldn't be in that situation if the defense could stop an offense of any kind. They are horrible and refuse to make adjustments of any kind. Better hope for some injuries to Philly...otherwise, gonna be 1-3...that quick...maybe 2-6 after the first 8...the way things are going now.

The offense isn't elite. The pass game is, but the run game is far, far, far from elite...not even average...well below. To be elite, you gotta have everything. They don't.

Kittyfish
09-23-2012, 07:44 PM
Gotta agree with everyone here - add my vote for the defense. Nonexistent in the second half - I listened to the radio call rather than watching, and trust me, it was painful. I can only imagine how hard it must have been to watch the vaunted D take a collective crap, I mean nap.

zulater
09-23-2012, 07:45 PM
The exit from the bandwagon is thataway. --->

The story here is turnovers and penalties. Mainly turnovers.

Who the fuck said I was abandoning ship?

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 07:45 PM
None of you guys get it do you? Obviously not. Yeah I know the defense is pitiful. But that's just it. They suck, they're incapable of doing any better. If the other team doesn't stop themselves they're toast. Period. End of story. It's like blaming a 8 year old for screwing up dinner.

The difference, the defense have not 8 years old, but yes, they played as players of 8 years old, which is unacceptable in the nfl

Brown=one bad play

Defense:five bad drive on a row

st33lersguy
09-23-2012, 07:46 PM
That fumble by Brown would have been meaningless if the defense would have shown up in the 2nd half. Also don't forget Brown would have had a punt return TD if the punt return team wouldn't have been so giddy to commit penalties at every oppurtunity

stillers4me
09-23-2012, 07:49 PM
We finally have an offense to be proud of and the defense falls apart at the seams.

Brett Keisel being a leader.......
Steelers vs. Raiders (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/channel/pittsburgh-steelers-vs-oakland-raiders)
Dejan Kovacevic (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/source/S-797781)

Steelers' Keisel: Blame this on me ... No one stood taller in the Steelers' locker room just now than Brett Keisel, whose neutral-zone penalty essentially handed Oakland a TD: "There were several things there that I did that helped them. So I'm going to take the heat on this one. We let them come back and get this win (http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/#), and we've got to chew on that. And we've got to chew on it for two weeks. ... We've got to get better in a lot of areas on defense. I've got to get better. ... Blame this one on me. I'll own this."

X-Terminator
09-23-2012, 07:50 PM
None of you guys get it do you? Obviously not. Yeah I know the defense is pitiful. But that's just it. They suck, they're incapable of doing any better. If the other team doesn't stop themselves they're toast. Period. End of story. It's like blaming a 8 year old for screwing up dinner.


The offense on the other hand is elite, or damn close to it. But this was a game they couldn't afford not to hold serve on. And guess what Antonio Brown all by himself double faulted our serve away.

Again physical mistakes happen. I can forgive Antonio 100% for the first fumble, even if it would have resulted in a touchback and change of possession ( and loss of touchdown obviously, which 9 out of 10 times it would) . But having survived that, or even hypothetically not surviving it, how the hell, on your very next touch do you cough it up so easily? If it's 4th down and he needed to extend the play to maintain possession, great effort! If time's almost exhausted, and you have to make the play to have any chance to win, so be it. But situational awareness people! He had the first! The clock wasn't an issue! Make your yards, but go the fuck down when it's time!

Again, I'm not defending the defense. They're useless. They don't have the ability to do squat. But Antonio needed to learn something from his previous fumble. Clearly he didn't. Hopefully he can learn to be more situationally aware in the future.

But you are blaming the offense and Brown more than the defense, which is absolutely ridiculous. If the situation was reversed, I highly doubt you or anyone else would blame the defense for anything.

zulater
09-23-2012, 07:52 PM
The difference, the defense have not 8 years old, but yes, they played as players of 8 years old, which is unacceptable in the nfl

Brown=one bad play

Defense:five bad drive on a row

Two bad plays. Two consecutive bad plays which is the entire point of my argument. You can't do that on consecutive plays. Fumble fumble, and one bad play? Give me a break! :frusty:

Kittyfish
09-23-2012, 07:52 PM
The D might have let the team down tonight, but Keisel is a class act.

zulater
09-23-2012, 07:53 PM
But you are blaming the offense and Brown more than the defense, which is absolutely ridiculous. If the situation was reversed, I highly doubt you or anyone else would blame the defense for anything.

The point is, the defense is the Pirates. They are in fact that bad, and therefore can't be held accountable.

X-Terminator
09-23-2012, 07:55 PM
The point is, the defense is the Pirates. They are in fact that bad, and therefore can't be held accountable.

And with that, I am officially taking the rest of the night off before I completely lose my fucking mind.

Count Steeler
09-23-2012, 07:57 PM
Zu, if you want to make the point, as you have, that Brown should not have fumbled, great. I can agree with that. If a Steeler coach did not give a heads up to the guys about the Raiders being extra ball hawking when they were tackling today, then some blame should go to them as well.

However, to say he was a bigger goat than the entire defense that absolutely refused to make a play, we will never agree on that.

Brown's was an error of trying to make a bigger play. The defense can not be found guilty of that kind of effort today.

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 07:58 PM
Two bad plays. Two consecutive bad plays which is the entire point of my argument. You can't do that on consecutive plays. Fumble fumble, and one bad play? Give me a break! :frusty:

you're the one who blame Brown for the lost

Brown made a mistake that hurt steelers

The defense has given points to their last 5 drive

This is like blaming the defense of the browns against the eagles...This is stupid

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 07:58 PM
*you're the only one who blame Brown

steelerdude15
09-23-2012, 07:59 PM
The point is, the defense is the Pirates. They are in fact that bad, and therefore can't be held accountable.

They should be held accountable for being this bad. All the way from the coaching staff to themselves.

zulater
09-23-2012, 08:02 PM
And with that, I am officially taking the rest of the night off before I completely lose my fucking mind.

Good night. If you can't see the defense is in fact the Pirates and completely incapable of fending for themselves then you're just not paying attention.

Here's a clue for you. The other team offensively has to beat themselves. This defense doesn't possess the capability to stop the other team from doing jack squat if they're executing. Period.

Offensively we can't blink. And in this game Antonio did on two straight possessions. But because he got away with it once I'm supposed to forget about it? Not hardly.

Count Steeler
09-23-2012, 08:05 PM
Good night. If you can't see the defense is in fact the Pirates and completely incapable of fending for themselves then you're just not paying attention.

Here's a clue for you. The other team offensively has to beat themselves. This defense doesn't possess the capability to stop the other team from doing jack squat if they're executing. Period.

Offensively we can't blink. And in this game Antonio did on two straight possessions. But because he got away with it once I'm supposed to forget about it? Not hardly.

If that is the standard you request, that is fine, but we will be drafting pretty high come next April. As a TEAM game, the O performed admirably today. The D did not perform. Period.

Have you ever held our D to such a standard? It is obvious that the game has passed by LeBeau. I think it is time to give the reigns to Butler.

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 08:08 PM
zulater,this is pathetic

You think this is acceptable that the defense plays as one of the five worst defenses in the NFL?

zulater
09-23-2012, 08:12 PM
If that is the standard you request, that is fine, but we will be drafting pretty high come next April. As a TEAM game, the O performed admirably today. The D did not perform. Period.

Have you ever held our D to such a standard? It is obvious that the game has passed by LeBeau. I think it is time to give the reigns to Butler.

Who's arguing? Can't you see my point? The defense is in fact that bad. Any offense that isn't pitiful and is playing up to their ability will score against them virtually at will.

For years this team won games more because of their defense than their offense. Those days are done. For a while anyway.

Offensively we can be as good or better than any team in the league. Therefore the offense bears the brunt of responsibility for this team's fate this year. Thus 84 making the same mistake on consecutive touches makes him as much of a goat as ayone on the team for this particular game.

zulater
09-23-2012, 08:14 PM
zulater,this is pathetic

You think this is acceptable that the defense plays as one of the five worst defenses in the NFL?

What's pathetic is your comprehension of what I'm trying to communicate.

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 08:15 PM
Who's arguing? Can't you see my point? The defense is in fact that bad. Any offense that isn't pitiful and is playing up to their ability will score against them virtually at will.

For years this team won games more because of their defense than their offense. Those days are done. For a while anyway.

Offensively we can be as good or better than any team in the league. Therefore the offense bears the brunt of responsibility for this team's fate this year.

The steelers will win anything if they give points for every drive

if the defense was average, it would have been an easy win, but you think that the performence in the defense is acceptable

Psycho Ward 86
09-23-2012, 08:17 PM
the defense, how is this even a question. At least brown still made a crap ton of plays. And it's not like he was the only one giving the ball away. We fumbled 4 times, 2 of which were Brown's, but he recovered one of his own fumbles. Im still in awe that we seriously lost this game.

This defense is still playing like last year's defense: Incapable of creating pressure and turnovers, and playing well against shitty QB's and horribly against decent ones. Granted its only week 3, but we need to get our act together. Zero excuses, especially not that Polamalu/Harrison crap.

Count Steeler
09-23-2012, 08:17 PM
Who's arguing? Can't you see my point? The defense is in fact that bad. Any offense that isn't pitiful and is playing up to their ability will score against them virtually at will.

For years this team won games more because of their defense than their offense. Those days are done. For a while anyway.

Offensively we can be as good or better than any team in the league. Therefore the offense bears the brunt of responsibility for this team's fate this year.

This may be the best performance for the O all year. You can't seriously expect them to get a TD on every drive and make every drive last for 7-8 minutes. Our O Line is far from that position. We need the synergy of the 3 units working together. D,O and ST.

If you are saying that the O needs to put up 40 every game or else the blame of the loss falls on them, that is far reaching.

zulater
09-23-2012, 08:22 PM
The steelers will win anything if they give points for every drive

if the defense was average, it would have been an easy win, but you think that the performence in the defense is acceptable

No I don't think it's acceptable. But I think it will be the norm for the majority of this season. They are in fact that bad.

So if this team wants to win games they can't make inexcusable mistakes by the players who can make a difference.( all of who are on offense) Fumbling on consecutive touches is in fact inexcusable.

7willBheaven
09-23-2012, 08:23 PM
The only choice here should be the D. While Brown did fumble/etc...it didnt cost them the game...and he made a mistake trying to fight for more yards/win/etc...he didnt help Oakland score 34 points the D did. End. Of. Story.

Shoes
09-23-2012, 08:27 PM
Mike T didn't demonstrate any faith in the D when he went for it on a 4 & 1.

polamalubeast
09-23-2012, 08:27 PM
No I don't think it's acceptable. But I think it will be the norm for the majority of this season. They are in fact that bad.

So if this team wants to win games they can't make inexcusable mistakes by the players who can make a difference.( all of who are on offense) Fumbling on consecutive touches is in fact inexcusable.

The defense can be at least average..........The defense is too good to continue to play like that

not because the defense is bad now, that it will continue.....In 2011, the Giants were one of the worst defenses in the first 14 games, but in their last 6 games, they have allowed an average of 14 points per game

HollywoodSteel
09-23-2012, 09:05 PM
What's pathetic is your comprehension of what I'm trying to communicate.

Zu, I think people do understand your point. I am frustrated with Brown too. As the play was happending I was screaming for him to just go down. I knew nothing good would happen in that situation with him dancing around surrounded by defenders. His bone headed play certainly was horrible and greatly contributed to the loss. Over all I tend to agree with your point that the O has to compensate for a sub par defense, much like the Patriots did last year.

But that said, the defense has to be held to SOME standard. Remember, this is the same defense that held the Jets to way less points and the Jets have arguably a better offense than the Raiders. So that means they are more talented than they showed tonight. If we score 31 points a game and can't win then we just have no hope in this league. And we're not talking about giving up 34 points to the Packers or Patriots here, it's the gad damn Raiders. I don't set the bar too high for our D, but a bar has to exist, doesn't it?

steelerdude15
09-23-2012, 09:10 PM
I wonder if cutting some of the veterans (Farrior, Smith, etc) hurts in the leadership and teaching roles for the defense.

HollywoodSteel
09-23-2012, 09:17 PM
Also, Zu, lets try to put this in perspective. I have been making a similar point lately, saying that the only way this team as a shot to be a contender is to basically be the 2011 Patriots. Well the 2011 Patriots gave up 21.4 points a game and their O scored about 31 points a game. If their D had given up 34 points a game they would have had zero chance of going to the Super Bowl. It just can't happen. If our D is incapable of any better then we might as well not watch this year. Our O will never be good enough to compensate for that week in and week out.

HollywoodSteel
09-23-2012, 09:25 PM
For even more perspective, forget about winning teams for a second. The worst team in points allowed last year was Tampa Bay. Their defense gave up 30.875 points a game.

steelerdude15
09-23-2012, 09:26 PM
Also, Zu, lets try to put this in perspective. I have been making a similar point lately, saying that the only way this team as a shot to be a contender is to basically be the 2011 Patriots. Well the 2011 Patriots gave up 21.4 points a game and their O scored about 31 points a game. If their D had given up 34 points a game they would have had zero chance of going to the Super Bowl. It just can't happen. If our D is incapable of any better then we might as well not watch this year. Our O will never be good enough to compensate for that week in and week out.

Did you mean o-line?

HollywoodSteel
09-23-2012, 11:29 PM
Did you mean o-line?


No, I mean our offense in general. As good as it is, it is not good enough to compensate for a Defense that gives up 34 points. My point was that the d has to be considered the biggest goat of the game because no team should expect their defense to give up this many points, even if the defense is sub par.

fansince'76
09-23-2012, 11:32 PM
No, I mean our offense in general. As good as it is, it is not good enough to compensate for a Defense that gives up 34 points. My point was that the d has to be considered the biggest goat of the game because no team should expect their defense to give up this many points, even if the defense is sub par.

Especially to a team that will be lucky to sniff 30 points in a game again this season.

bayz101
09-24-2012, 12:44 AM
Please for the love of god tell me you hit your fucking head.

Antonio Brown is NOT the reason we lost this game. In fact, NO ONE on the offensive side of the ball is to blame. The defense sucked ASS all game long, and the turnovers by Brown and Wallace resulted from fighting for extra yardage!

bayz101
09-24-2012, 12:46 AM
Just when you think you've seen it all. I can't take this anymore. Some people just need to be locked in a cage after losses.

Craic
09-24-2012, 01:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEkEYjO60nc&feature=related


And no, that wasn't posted in the wrong thread - it's an equivalency of quality.

Steeldude
09-24-2012, 01:49 AM
This defense is still playing like last year's defense: Incapable of creating pressure and turnovers, and playing well against shitty QB's and horribly against decent ones. Granted its only week 3, but we need to get our act together. Zero excuses, especially not that Polamalu/Harrison crap.

Bingo

zulater
09-24-2012, 05:14 AM
Please for the love of god tell me you hit your fucking head.

Antonio Brown is NOT the reason we lost this game. In fact, NO ONE on the offensive side of the ball is to blame. The defense sucked ASS all game long, and the turnovers by Brown and Wallace resulted from fighting for extra yardage!

Answer this question honestly.

If Antonio doesn't lose that fumble do the Steelers lose?

You can't say for sure, but they were marching down the field with impunity up to that point, drive after drive, and if they cash that possession ( that was already over midfield in two plays) into points and they regain that two score margin once again, they probably win regardless of how bad the defense was.

And who knows? If you keep the pressure on Carson and keep making him play from behind maybe he cracks and makes an unforced error? ( like Brown did)

But getting back to my question, if Antonio Brown doesn't fumble that promising possession away at midfield I believe the Steelers would have won no matter how horrid the defense played the rest of the way. And being as he fumbled the previous possession but luckily was able to recover, that made it all the harder for me to swallow!

There's a time to fight for the extra yard at all costs. That wasn't close to being one of them.

zulater
09-24-2012, 06:02 AM
“Key drive, key situation, made a play, (and I) could have got down,” Brown said. “It determined the outcome.”

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/2653477-85/steelers-raiders-yards-fourth-palmer-yard-janikowski-oakland-hang-pass#ixzz27Nr9qzaT
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook

Look someone agrees with me! And it happens to be Antonio himself!

Look I'm not killing the guy. He's clearly one of our best players, and he's a stand up kid and overall good guy. And my ire at him ends after this game. But I stand by the opinion that he was the game's goat. To me his second fumble was the single biggest game altering play of the day. Remove that fumble, take the positive yards of that play and I say the Steelers have about a 80% chance of holding on for the win.

Texasteel
09-24-2012, 07:15 AM
I don't think I really want to place the label of goat on any one player. The turnovers, what seemed like a ton and a half of penalties, and a defence that looks to be playing about 3 levels below their talent level, the injuries, even the coaching. All these things played into the lose. I hope they wake up soon, I mean the whole team, or this is going to be a very long year. Either way, this is our team, good or bad, and I have seen us play worse.

NCSteeler
09-24-2012, 07:34 AM
Ibid.

:chuckle:



At least Brown's mistake came because he was working his rear off.

It came because he doesn't respect ball security. You don't run swinging your arms around with the ball in a crowd, just dumb.

Texasteel
09-24-2012, 07:44 AM
It came because he doesn't respect ball security. You don't run swinging your arms around with the ball in a crowd, just dumb.

I do pretty much agree with this statment, bud. When you try to make a play like Brown was you are giving the defencive plays a free swipe at the ball, and give the trailing players time to catch up to you. You have to put the ball away, and hold on tight.

Devilsdancefloor
09-24-2012, 07:52 AM
Answer this question honestly.

If Antonio doesn't lose that fumble do the Steelers lose?

You can't say for sure, but they were marching down the field with impunity up to that point, drive after drive, and if they cash that possession ( that was already over midfield in two plays) into points and they regain that two score margin once again, they probably win regardless of how bad the defense was.
And who knows? If you keep the pressure on Carson and keep making him play from behind maybe he cracks and makes an unforced error? ( like Brown did)

But getting back to my question, if Antonio Brown doesn't fumble that promising possession away at midfield I believe the Steelers would have won no matter how horrid the defense played the rest of the way. And being as he fumbled the previous possession but luckily was able to recover, that made it all the harder for me to swallow!

There's a time to fight for the extra yard at all costs. That wasn't close to being one of them.


be honest with yourself the steelers D comes up with one stop GAME OVER steelers win, but they couldnt stop a 90 year old yesterday. Plus if you gonna blame brown why not blame Dywer he fumbled as well, but it is insane to thing a O can put up 30 pts and loss and it is their fault come on man.

Kittyfish
09-24-2012, 08:05 AM
Zu, you know I loves ya, but if the defense is so awful that they must be given a pass and the offense must make up for their deficiencies (as I understand your argument), doesn't that make the D the goat by definition? I agree, the offense simply can't be expected to play perfectly and score 30 or 40 points every game because the defense is so bad that we shouldn't expect anything from them.

Tugger
09-24-2012, 08:34 AM
Well if this is what's going to happen after Troy retires this year, then we are in Big Trouble. There is no way that "Swagger" is going to carry the defense. Ryan can't do it alone and they definitely need help from the front seven to put pressure on the opposing team. I just can't understand why there was no adjustment made after Oakland started passing.

Moose
09-24-2012, 08:52 AM
Defense ! The conservative crap and playing down to opponent HAS TO STOP !!! You get a lead you keep building on it....put your foot on opponents throat and be done with it !! I had a bad feeling in the 3rd qtr. that the way our defense started playing ( or not playing), that it was a matter of time for a momemtum changer to happen and we'd end up playing catch-up. I truly respect Coach LeBeau, but sometimes I wonder if his play book isn't known thru out the league. After so many years all teams have to know it by now.

bayz101
09-24-2012, 11:22 AM
Answer this question honestly.

If Antonio doesn't lose that fumble do the Steelers lose?

You can't say for sure, but they were marching down the field with impunity up to that point, drive after drive, and if they cash that possession ( that was already over midfield in two plays) into points and they regain that two score margin once again, they probably win regardless of how bad the defense was.

And who knows? If you keep the pressure on Carson and keep making him play from behind maybe he cracks and makes an unforced error? ( like Brown did)

But getting back to my question, if Antonio Brown doesn't fumble that promising possession away at midfield I believe the Steelers would have won no matter how horrid the defense played the rest of the way. And being as he fumbled the previous possession but luckily was able to recover, that made it all the harder for me to swallow!

There's a time to fight for the extra yard at all costs. That wasn't close to being one of them.

If the defense gets off the plane, the offense is NEVER in this situation to begin with. How the hell can you completely ignore the defense's struggles ALL GAME LONG, and STILL place even a SLIVER of the blame on Brown? Of course Brown will blame himself, that's the kind of player he is. Watch, Tomlin and Ben will blame themselves too.

No way in hell does this go on Brown's shoulders, and no way in hell you can prove to me that they would have scored even if he hadn't fumbled. NOTHING was set in stone, and the momentum was still on Oakland's side.

Remember the last time we had the ball with a chance to win it in the fourth with the home team holding momentum? Ben threw a pick, and it STILL wasn't his fault that the damn defense failed consistently.

Kittyfish
09-24-2012, 11:47 AM
Of course Brown will blame himself, that's the kind of player he is. Watch, Tomlin and Ben will blame themselves too.

Brett Keisel, LaMarr Woodley and Ryan Clark have all taken the blame for the loss already. As you know, all of them play on the defense.

Craic
09-24-2012, 11:47 AM
It came because he doesn't respect ball security. You don't run swinging your arms around with the ball in a crowd, just dumb.

What are you talking about? He had the ball tucked. And EVERY ball carrying swings his arms back and forth when he runs. It's a natural running movement. Look, ball security means having three points of contact on the ball.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll59/meraby/q_zps6f63fd2f.png

The ball is in the crook of the arm. The top of it is tucked against his chest, and his hand (though you can't see it), is obviously on the ball. Ball Control.

Sorry, that wasn't the problem. The problem was that he was trying to make too much happen.

steel striker
09-24-2012, 02:39 PM
Hands down it's the defense they made Palmer look like Montana in the 4th quater yesterday. No pressure all day to throw and, it did not look like the db's even tried to jamb the wr's at all. Looks like the offense is going to have to score 40pts to win games this season.

ALLD
09-24-2012, 05:19 PM
It looks like we don't have the horses on defense to compete with the best teams. This team is in flux and it is going to need to score 30+ every game in order to win most of them. Now I will go vomit.

ALLD
09-24-2012, 05:44 PM
The defense played worse than our OL.

Nadroj 20
09-24-2012, 06:20 PM
The defense was terrible and was making the offense carry the team the entire game. Then at the end when the offense needed to continue making plays Brown fumbles trying to do too much.

It is definitely a combination of both if we want to point fingers. I personally would place more blame on the Defense because they never even showed up to Oakland let alone the stadium. But yeah, if someone wants to place some blame on Brown for the fumble, I don't see why they can't?

I just think as a whole if the defense improves they will be fine.

On another note, am I the only one that worries that the defense isn't going to improve all that much when James and Troy get back? Is Harrison really going to get to the QB when our other linebackers can't get to him? The one thing that will improve especially with Troy is the tackling in the seconday,. but other then that ehhh? I just don't know anymore. Both those guys are missing more games then they play...

SteelGhost
09-24-2012, 08:58 PM
Of course the "D" they made Cartoon look like Joe Montana :frusty:

Texasteel
09-25-2012, 02:57 AM
What are you talking about? He had the ball tucked. And EVERY ball carrying swings his arms back and forth when he runs. It's a natural running movement. Look, ball security means having three points of contact on the ball.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll59/meraby/q_zps6f63fd2f.png

The ball is in the crook of the arm. The top of it is tucked against his chest, and his hand (though you can't see it), is obviously on the ball. Ball Control.
at
Sorry, that wasn't the problem. The problem was that he was trying to make too much happen.

I just feel that there are times to carry the ball like a tailback, and times to put the ball away like a fullback. IMO this was one of those fullback moments.

bayz101
09-25-2012, 03:24 AM
I just feel that there are times to carry the ball like a tailback, and times to put the ball away like a fullback. IMO this was one of those fullback moments.

No, this is one of those times where you hit the deck. Brown acknowledged that he needed to get down. The Raiders defense was electrified, and fighting for extra yards, as dumb as it sounds, probably shouldn't have been the agenda.

It's not Browns fault, or really any player offensively, really. But EVERYONE pays for the loss. It's a team effort in the end, and the defense didn't earn their paychecks this week. Here's to hoping for a home win against the Eagles in a couple of weeks. :drink:

Texasteel
09-25-2012, 04:49 AM
No, this is one of those times where you hit the deck. Brown acknowledged that he needed to get down. The Raiders defense was electrified, and fighting for extra yards, as dumb as it sounds, probably shouldn't have been the agenda.

It's not Browns fault, or really any player offensively, really. But EVERYONE pays for the loss. It's a team effort in the end, and the defense didn't e arn their paychecks this week. Here's to hoping for a home win against the Eagles in a couple of weeks. :drink:

I think we all agree that Brown should have gone down, but he didn't. I do think it is in most WR, and RBs minds to alway try to break the long one, right or wrong.

Craic
09-25-2012, 01:00 PM
I just feel that there are times to carry the ball like a tailback, and times to put the ball away like a fullback. IMO this was one of those fullback moments.

That may be, but it doesn't mean that he didn't have ball control at the time he was hit. That's was my point there.


No, this is one of those times where you hit the deck. Brown acknowledged that he needed to get down. The Raiders defense was electrified, and fighting for extra yards, as dumb as it sounds, probably shouldn't have been the agenda.

It's not Browns fault, or really any player offensively, really. But EVERYONE pays for the loss. It's a team effort in the end, and the defense didn't earn their paychecks this week. Here's to hoping for a home win against the Eagles in a couple of weeks. :drink:

You're exactly right. His problem was that he was trying to do too much, and I'm not going to come down really hard on a player for working too hard.

zulater
12-16-2012, 09:47 PM
The defense had an excuse. They suck ass, both collectively and individually, and are coached by a has been. Antonio Brown on the other hand has no excuse. Having already fumbled into the end zone and by a stroke of luck recovering said fumble, how on earth does he fumble on his very next touch? That was it. That play right there was the game. How the hell he inoculated himself from his previous fuck up just because he got away with it is beyond me. :frusty:

We have no defense. We have to win game with our offense. If our offensive players can't show a little more common sense, and know when discretion is the better part of valor then we'll be lucky to win 7 games this year.

Truthfully 7 games is our ceiling with our defense if our offense is anything less than flawless.

I got killed for this thread, but I was right. Brown fumbled in the end zone but luckily recovered his own fumble and scored the TD. That happens. We understand the best players make mistakes.

But what the best players don't do is repeat mistakes. They in fact learn from those mistakes.

My whole problem with Antonio in the Raider game was that by fumbling the second time, on his very next touch in fact, he showed he learned nothing from his first fumble. As if the fact that he got a lucky bounce on that one made it as if it didn't ever occur!


Well flash foward two months and here we are again. Antonio fumbles a punt, but luckily the ball bounces right back to him. Instead ot taking this as a sign, a warning to pay extra attention to what you're doing out there. Nope, Antonio a quarter later gets lazy and doesn't focus on the players surrounding him and gets caught totally unaware's and has the ball swiped out of his hands.

Then of course later showing he has no situational awareness he fails to field a punt, effectively costing the Steelers 17 yards of field posistion then later steps out of bounds, preserving clock for the Cowboys.

Antonio needs to be coached up and attituded down.

Next season he has to be a better player and stop making mental errors!

- - - Updated - - -


None of you guys get it do you? Obviously not. Yeah I know the defense is pitiful. But that's just it. They suck, they're incapable of doing any better. If the other team doesn't stop themselves they're toast. Period. End of story. It's like blaming a 8 year old for screwing up dinner.


The offense on the other hand is elite, or damn close to it. But this was a game they couldn't afford not to hold serve on. And guess what Antonio Brown all by himself double faulted our serve away.

Again physical mistakes happen. I can forgive Antonio 100% for the first fumble, even if it would have resulted in a touchback and change of possession ( and loss of touchdown obviously, which 9 out of 10 times it would) . But having survived that, or even hypothetically not surviving it, how the hell, on your very next touch do you cough it up so easily? If it's 4th down and he needed to extend the play to maintain possession, great effort! If time's almost exhausted, and you have to make the play to have any chance to win, so be it. But situational awareness people! He had the first! The clock wasn't an issue! Make your yards, but go the fuck down when it's time!

Again, I'm not defending the defense. They're useless. They don't have the ability to do squat. But Antonio needed to learn something from his previous fumble. Clearly he didn't. Hopefully he can learn to be more situationally aware in the future.

qft

Psycho Ward 86
12-16-2012, 09:57 PM
N
It's not Browns fault, or really any player offensively, really. But EVERYONE pays for the loss. It's a team effort in the end, and the defense didn't earn their paychecks this week. Here's to hoping for a home win against the Eagles in a couple of weeks. :drink:

said the guy with the browns avi.

Nope its browns fault. The defense had an excuse. 2 of our top 3 corners out to go through the game. And all 3 of our top 3 corners out to finish the game when it mattered most. Yet even with the odds against them, our defense, down its top 3 cornerbacks came out and stonewalled the cowboys offense in the back half of the 4th quarter. Brown had no excuses. Dropped an easy drive killing pass, Muffed a punt in our own redzone. Fumbled again on another punt. its too bad our receivers can never have good games in the same games

NCSteeler
12-17-2012, 06:59 AM
Why ANYONE is placing any blame AT ALL on the offense is beyond me. They scored 31 fucking points! That's more than enough to win a game if your defense doesn't completely suck donkey dick.

Hey, we weren't even playing the Donkeys. :flap:

Seriously, were not that good of a team this year, an objective viewer could identify that weeks ago. The defense needs some work, some energy, I watched 49ers D line play last night and it was what we used to look like. Let's not waste our draft position. Sometimes it's not your year. We still control our future, even if it means a quick exit from round one.

Band wagoners UNITE and please exit wagon left.

BlastFurnace
12-17-2012, 07:20 AM
Well if this is what's going to happen after Troy retires this year, then we are in Big Trouble. There is no way that "Swagger" is going to carry the defense. Ryan can't do it alone and they definitely need help from the front seven to put pressure on the opposing team. I just can't understand why there was no adjustment made after Oakland started passing.

Troy is basically retired now. The old Troy is gone. The current Troy is playing like he is finished. His play no longer can hide deficiencies of other players in the secondary.

Psycho Ward 86
12-17-2012, 12:38 PM
Please for the love of god tell me you hit your fucking head.

Antonio Brown is NOT the reason we lost this game. In fact, NO ONE on the offensive side of the ball is to blame. The defense sucked ASS all game long, and the turnovers by Brown and Wallace resulted from fighting for extra yardage!

you're just being a blind antonio brown fan boy. brown is my favorite receiver on this team but he butchered this game for us at least 3 major times. AT LEAST. Id love to enlighten you if youd like...

Count Steeler
12-17-2012, 03:11 PM
you're just being a blind antonio brown fan boy. brown is my favorite receiver on this team but he butchered this game for us at least 3 major times. AT LEAST. Id love to enlighten you if youd like...

You do realize that this is an old thread and bayz101's post was from 09/24?

43Hitman
12-17-2012, 03:57 PM
You do realize that this is an old thread and bayz101's post was from 09/24?

Yeah, Zu likes to necrobump threads whenever he feels like patting himself on the back. :lol: