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Vincent
05-30-2010, 11:44 PM
Thought I'd take advantage of the honeymoon and throw out some red meat for Ric. :peep:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece
May 30, 2010
Israel stations nuclear missile subs off Iran
Uzi Mahnaimi in Tel Aviv

Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline.

The first has been sent in response to Israeli fears that ballistic missiles developed by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah, a political and military organisation in Lebanon, could hit sites in Israel, including air bases and missile launchers.

The submarines of Flotilla 7 — Dolphin, Tekuma and Leviathan — have visited the Gulf before. But the decision has now been taken to ensure a permanent presence of at least one of the vessels.

The flotilla’s commander, identified only as “Colonel O”, told an Israeli newspaper: “We are an underwater assault force. We’re operating deep and far, very far, from our borders.”

Each of the submarines has a crew of 35 to 50, commanded by a colonel capable of launching a nuclear cruise missile.

The vessels can remain at sea for about 50 days and stay submerged up to 1,150ft below the surface for at least a week. Some of the cruise missiles are equipped with the most advanced nuclear warheads in the Israeli arsenal.

The deployment is designed to act as a deterrent, gather intelligence and potentially to land Mossad agents. “We’re a solid base for collecting sensitive information, as we can stay for a long time in one place,” said a flotilla officer.

The submarines could be used if Iran continues its programme to produce a nuclear bomb. “The 1,500km range of the submarines’ cruise missiles can reach any target in Iran,” said a navy officer.

Apparently responding to the Israeli activity, an Iranian admiral said: “Anyone who wishes to do an evil act in the Persian Gulf will receive a forceful response from us.”

Israel’s urgent need to deter the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah alliance was demonstrated last month. Ehud Barak, the defence minister, was said to have shown President Barack Obama classified satellite images of a convoy of ballistic missiles leaving Syria on the way to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, will emphasise the danger to Obama in Washington this week.

Tel Aviv, Israel’s business and defence centre, remains the most threatened city in the world, said one expert. “There are more missiles per square foot targeting Tel Aviv than any other city,” he said.

MasterOfPuppets
05-31-2010, 12:53 AM
found this older article from april..


Israel could opt for nuke strikes on Iran
Published: April 8, 2010 at 3:35 PM

TEL AVIV, Israel, April 8 (UPI) -- U.S. President Barack Obama and his Russian counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev, may have signed a landmark arms-control treaty, but a U.S. think tank is suggesting Israel could resort to using tactical nuclear weapons to destroy Iran's deeply buried nuclear facilities.

Whether this is all part of a U.S. effort to crank up the pressure on Iran to be more compliant on the nuclear issue by using scare tactics or if the right-wing government in Israel is actually inclined to resort to nuclear weapons is almost impossible to discern.

But one day after the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington released a report on March 26 noting that "some believe that nuclear weapons are the only weapons that can destroy targets deep underground or in tunnels," The New York Times reported Iran was suspected of preparing to build two more uranium enrichment plants.

And just to ram the message home, on March 28, the Times' Sunday edition ran an analysis headlined "Imagining an Israeli Strike on Iran."

The 208-page report, by veteran Middle East analysts Anthony Cordesman and Abdullah Toukan, argued that Israel's air force does not have the firepower to knock out the Iranian facilities and that low-yield tactical nuclear warheads would be the only way to destroy them.

Israel, of course, has made no comment on this at all, in line with its policy of deliberate ambiguity about its nuclear arsenal, believed to total some 600 warheads, bombs and artillery shells.

Nor does it discuss its inventory of Jericho II -- and probably some Jericho III -- ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. These are placed in heavily fortified silos in the Judean Hills and near two or three Israeli air bases.

But if Israel elected to launch a nuclear strike, it is likely that the Jerichos would be the chosen means of delivery.

They would eliminate Israeli casualties, of which there would be an appreciable number if the air force was thrown at Iran's heavily protected nuclear infrastructure, and the loss of valuable strike aircraft.

One assessment estimated Israel would need 90-100 long-range F-15I and F-16I aircraft for such strikes, of which around 20 percent would be lost.

In an assessment in March 2009, Toukan estimated that 42 Jericho IIIs, with 1,650-pound conventional warheads, would be needed to "severely damage or demolish" Iran's core nuclear facilities at Natanz, Isfahan and Arak.

That, according to most estimates, would be enough to set back Iran's nuclear arms project by two or three years.

But it would also run the risk of retaliatory attacks on Israel, either with Iran's Shehab-3 intermediate-range ballistic missiles -- Tehran has threatened to unleash 600, although there's no evidence it has that many -- or using local proxies Hezbollah and Hamas.

Israel could also use its three German-built Dolphin-class submarines, reportedly adapted to launch nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, firing from the Arabian Sea to add to the mayhem.

Little is known about the Jericho III, but it is believed be a three-stage, solid-fuel missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead for a minimum range of 2,980 miles.

Israel has never even hinted at using nuclear weapons against Iran.

President Shimon Peres, who played a key role in creating Israel's nuclear capability in the 1950s and 60s, has declared the Jewish state "will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons to the region."

The Americans have repeatedly warned Israel not to mount unilateral pre-emptive strikes against Iran because that could drag the United States into another war.

Obama's new version of U.S. nuclear strategy unveiled Tuesday significantly narrows the circumstances in which Americans would employ nuclear arms. But it does allow their use against rogue states like Iran.

While that's hardly a green light for Israel, former Central Intelligence Agency official Philip Giraldi notes: "Israel is fast becoming a pariah nation … Like South Africa, the Israeli response to criticism has been to become more reactionary … waging unending war against its neighbors to maintain cohesion against foreign enemies.

"There is a certain danger in isolating the Israelis too much as it … might influence a dangerously unstable government to take action that might include exploiting its nuclear arsenal in search of Armageddon."

MasterOfPuppets
05-31-2010, 01:06 AM
Russian foreign minister dismisses Iran criticism

By JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press Writer Jim Heintz, Associated Press Writer – Thu May 27, 8:11 am ET

MOSCOW – Russia's foreign minister on Thursday brushed off Iran's recent criticism as an emotional outburst and expressed frustration with Tehran in the standoff over its nuclear program.

The comments indicated growing dismay with Iran in Russia, whose support had somewhat buffered Tehran against calls in the West for tougher action.

After long resistance, Russia is now supporting possible new sanctions against Iran over concern that its is developing nuclear weapons. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad took Russia to task for this on Wednesday, saying it was difficult to gauge whether the Kremlin was a friend or an enemy.

"This statement is being interpreted as emotional," Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said at a news conference.

He lamented that, despite Russia's years of efforts to resolve the dispute, "the response from the Iranian side has been unsatisfactory."

Russia and Iran have cultivated close relations for years, including Russia's construction of the Bushehr nuclear plant that many critics say is connected to Iran's efforts to build nuclear weapons. Russia also signed a contract in 2007 to sell S-300 air-defense missiles to Iran, which would substantially increase Iran's defense capacities, though none have been delivered.

Despite the ties, Russia has been able to exert little visible leverage on Iran to cooperate with the International Atomic Energy Agency, and its frustration is clearly growing.

Lavrov appeared to hint that Moscow is concerned that Iran's lack of cooperation could be undermining Russia's image as a major force in the international community.

"All the decisions that we make on all questions of external policy are based on national interests and on our responsibility as a great state which is involved in an array of international efforts to resolve difficult situations. And Iran is one of these," he said.

Aside from Ahmadinejad's criticism, Iran in turn has shown other signs this week of growing irritation with Moscow. The Iranian ambassador this week said pointedly that Iran expects Russia to fulfill the S-300 contract.

Lavrov has suggested the delay in delivery is due to concerns about aggravating regional tensions. Israel vehemently opposes delivery of the missiles.

Despite the sparring between Tehran and Moscow, Lavrov said Russia supports a proposed nuclear fuel swap deal that advocates say could break the standoff, but which the United States has dismissed as a ploy.

The swap offer was negotiated last week by Brazil and Turkey, which are opposed to new U.N. sanctions on Iran. It would commit Iran to shipping 1,200 kilograms of low-enriched uranium for storage abroad — in this case to Turkey. In exchange, Iran would get fuel rods made from 20-percent enriched uranium; that level of enrichment is high enough for use in research reactors but too low for nuclear weapons.

"Very much will depend on how the Iranian side will approach its obligations. If it observes them strictly, then Russia will actively support the realization of the plan proposed by Brazil and Turkey," Lavrov said. "This plan serves the interests of peaceful resolution of the Iranian nuclear program."

Ahmadinejad, in the same speech in which he criticized Russia, warned the United States that it will miss a historic opportunity for cooperation if it turns down the nuclear fuel swap deal.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_nuclear

ricardisimo
05-31-2010, 07:06 PM
Israel's been quite busy of late propping up their image:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10199480.stm

Vincent
05-31-2010, 11:13 PM
Israel's been quite busy of late propping up their image:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10199480.stm

It seems to be semantics. The Israelis think they were being beaten with pipes and chains and the "Pro-Palestinian campaigners say the soldiers opened fire unprovoked when they landed on the aid-carrying ships". Maybe it just depends on the neighborhood you're from.

The video is a little fuzzy. Who are the folks being beaten? And who are the "beaters"? Oh look, they're throwing them off the boat. Huh. Where'd they get all those pipes and chains?

I'm sort of "old fashioned". If somebody tried to hit me with a pipe or a chain, I'd like to think I'd be in a position to shoot them.

ricardisimo
06-01-2010, 12:05 AM
It seems to be semantics. The Israelis think they were being beaten with pipes and chains and the "Pro-Palestinian campaigners say the soldiers opened fire unprovoked when they landed on the aid-carrying ships". Maybe it just depends on the neighborhood you're from.

The video is a little fuzzy. Who are the folks being beaten? And who are the "beaters"? Oh look, they're throwing them off the boat. Huh. Where'd they get all those pipes and chains?

I'm sort of "old fashioned". If somebody tried to hit me with a pipe or a chain, I'd like to think I'd be in a position to shoot them.
Yeah, I'm kind of old-fashioned too. When I raid someone else's unarmed boat in full military gear, I expect to be greeted warmly. Whatever happened to manners?

Mach1
06-01-2010, 12:39 AM
It seems to be semantics. The Israelis think they were being beaten with pipes and chains and the "Pro-Palestinian campaigners say the soldiers opened fire unprovoked when they landed on the aid-carrying ships". Maybe it just depends on the neighborhood you're from.

The video is a little fuzzy. Who are the folks being beaten? And who are the "beaters"? Oh look, they're throwing them off the boat. Huh. Where'd they get all those pipes and chains?

I'm sort of "old fashioned". If somebody tried to hit me with a pipe or a chain, I'd like to think I'd be in a position to shoot them.

Apparently the Israelis were armed with paint guns.:noidea:


Places ric on ignore. :chuckle:

ricardisimo
06-01-2010, 12:51 AM
Apparently the Israelis were armed with paint guns.:noidea:


Places ric on ignore. :chuckle:

D'oh! Already!?!?!
:frusty:

Shoes
06-01-2010, 12:59 AM
Yeah, I'm kind of old-fashioned too. When I raid someone else's unarmed boat in full military gear, I expect to be greeted warmly. Whatever happened to manners?

North Korea took them....:chuckle:

Killer
06-01-2010, 01:32 PM
N. Korea blows up a ship and crew - not a peep from the "international community".

Oh well. What's a few dead S. Koreans?


But nothing gets the muzzie-loving Jew haters more lathered up than Israel fighting back.



Anger across Europe over Israeli action

This latest incident has been described as state terrorism by Turkey’s prime minister.

Earlier there had been demonstrations in cities across Europe including Paris, Stockholm, Rome and Athens, where police in some cases used teargas against protesters.

Most European countries have summoned Israeli diplomats to condemn what many described as a disproportionate use of force against the aid flotilla.

In London, too, there were angry scenes.

More than a thousand pro-Palestinian demonstrators headed for the Israeli embassy, waving placards saying “Disarm Israel” and accusing the country of “war crimes”.

http://www.euronews.net/2010/06/01/anger-spreads-across-europe-over-israeli-action/

suitanim
06-01-2010, 02:34 PM
This is definitely a black eye for Israel. However, it's not like they've never been "tatted" in a tit-for-tat...

Things is definitely gettin' a mite bit hairy ion the Mideast....

MasterOfPuppets
06-01-2010, 04:05 PM
this is really no different than what goes on in iraq, afghanistan , or pakistan. an insurgant can blow up 100 civilians and hardly get a peep out of the population, but if we or the U.N. kill 1 civilian by accident the population acts all butt hurt ..:der:

ALLD
06-01-2010, 04:11 PM
this is really no different than what goes on in iraq, afghanistan , or pakistan. an insurgant can blow up 100 civilians and hardly get a peep out of the population, but if we or the U.N. kill 1 civilian by accident the population acts all butt hurt ..:der:

Exactly. Suicide bombers are also state sponsored acts of terrorism. Israel is the only country with balls enough to openly seek justice with similar means of their attackers.

ricardisimo
06-01-2010, 04:35 PM
N. Korea blows up a ship and crew - not a peep from the "international community".

Oh well. What's a few dead S. Koreans?


But nothing gets the muzzie-loving Jew haters more lathered up than Israel fighting back.



Anger across Europe over Israeli action

This latest incident has been described as state terrorism by Turkey’s prime minister.

Earlier there had been demonstrations in cities across Europe including Paris, Stockholm, Rome and Athens, where police in some cases used teargas against protesters.

Most European countries have summoned Israeli diplomats to condemn what many described as a disproportionate use of force against the aid flotilla.

In London, too, there were angry scenes.

More than a thousand pro-Palestinian demonstrators headed for the Israeli embassy, waving placards saying “Disarm Israel” and accusing the country of “war crimes”.

http://www.euronews.net/2010/06/01/anger-spreads-across-europe-over-israeli-action/

Not a peep? Really?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10201876.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10160204.stm

... as well as continuing (and justified) rage and sanctions over their nuclear tests.

ricardisimo
06-01-2010, 04:51 PM
Exactly. Suicide bombers are also state sponsored acts of terrorism. Israel is the only country with balls enough to openly seek justice with similar means of their attackers.

So, an eye-for-an-eye is justice?

Vincent
06-01-2010, 05:25 PM
So, an eye-for-an-eye is justice?

It is in that part of the world. Considering the surround of terror and assault the Israelis have weathered since moving to the neighborhood, I think they show remarkable restraint. Almost as ridiculous as us.

But... "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" ...........

Killer
06-01-2010, 05:52 PM
Not a peep? Really?


Phhhthp - I told you Hillary would write her stern letter and that would be the end of it.

But let the Jews get uppity and fire off a few rounds and all the burka burka's get in an uproar, especially in communist Europe.

We should have let Hitler have France, Italy and all of Europe and backed them against the Russians. He was easy to eliminate at the end. England was always the weakestm now they're overun with Muslims and are nothing more than an Arab state. Fuck em.

All that cold war money we could have spent building bases on the moon and Mars.

ricardisimo
06-01-2010, 05:59 PM
Umm...
:der:

ricardisimo
06-01-2010, 05:59 PM
It is in that part of the world. Considering the surround of terror and assault the Israelis have weathered since moving to the neighborhood, I think they show remarkable restraint. Almost as ridiculous as us.

But... "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" ...........

Yes it is. :argue:

NJarhead
06-01-2010, 06:05 PM
So, an eye-for-an-eye is justice?

Defined.

ALLD
06-01-2010, 06:08 PM
Defined.

Biblically speaking, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." The Israelis do their own fighting and do not rely on a weak international court or UN to do it for them. Otherwise there would be no need for intimidation or a wall through East Jersulaem.

SteelerEmpire
06-01-2010, 06:15 PM
They were told (in advance) that something like this would happen if they entered a certain point in those waters... YET THEY CAME ANYWAY. Makes you wanna go hummmm ???

NJarhead
06-01-2010, 06:19 PM
Biblically speaking, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." The Israelis do their own fighting and do not rely on a weak international court or UN to do it for them. Otherwise there would be no need for intimidation or a wall through East Jersulaem.

What I was saying was "an eye for an eye is justice defined."

ricardisimo
06-01-2010, 06:28 PM
They were told (in advance) that something like this would happen if they entered a certain point in those waters... YET THEY CAME ANYWAY. Makes you wanna go hummmm ???

We were told ahead of time that Allah's wrath would fall upon us if we didn't remove our troops from Saudi Arabia. So, did 9/11 make you go "hummmmm"?

SteelerEmpire
06-01-2010, 06:35 PM
We were told ahead of time that Allah's wrath would fall upon us if we didn't remove our troops from Saudi Arabia. So, did 9/11 make you go "hummmmm"?

With that line of reasoning... The Jewish bible (you know the one that Islam copied off) (and Christian bible) also tells the muslim world that so many of "the enemies of Israel" will be destroyed that there will be only a small fraction of them left... I hope they are listening...
In addition. I think the guys that said, and done, that (and their supporters) have suffered A LOT more by American hands... than America has suffered from theirs...

SteelersinCA
06-01-2010, 06:52 PM
I don't really care what Israel does. They are a sovereign nation capable of wearing big boy pants and making their own decisions. I think Obama has made it pretty clear that we aren't going to stand behind them when they go crazy.

steelersfanman92
06-01-2010, 06:53 PM
Israel had every reason to board the ship and defend themselves against what could have possibly been an arm carrying ship, it was not until they were being attacked that they opened fire. Also by putting the subs out there they are protecting their country from what many believe could be an impending attack; so I do not understand the opposition to what they are doing is besides the fact that they took action instead of waiting for more of their citizens to be murdered.

Mach1
06-01-2010, 07:21 PM
I don't really care what Israel does. They are a sovereign nation capable of wearing big boy pants and making their own decisions. I think Obama has made it pretty clear that we aren't going to stand behind them when they go crazy.

What else would you expect from a closet muslim.

Vincent
06-01-2010, 07:48 PM
Makes you wanna go hummmm ???

North Korea sinks a SK boat and barks that if South Korea responds in any way its an act of war. Hmmmm. An "aid flotilla", :rofl2: (quit it yer killin me!) :rofl2: loaded with pipes and chains , is warned in advance not to cross... Hmmm. Seems like two US clients are being squeezed at once while we have an ineffectual muslim in the White House. Hmmmmmm.

Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

Killer
06-01-2010, 11:18 PM
I think Obama has made it pretty clear that we aren't going to stand behind them when they go crazy.

oh really


White House Backs UN Stance on Israeli Flotilla Raid

The Obama administration is refusing to condemn Israel for its deadly raid on a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/White-House-Supports-UN-Stance-on-Gaza-Convoy-Raid-95347184.html

SteelersinCA
06-01-2010, 11:57 PM
oh really


White House Backs UN Stance on Israeli Flotilla Raid

The Obama administration is refusing to condemn Israel for its deadly raid on a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/White-House-Supports-UN-Stance-on-Gaza-Convoy-Raid-95347184.html

Hey, tomorrow it could be different, the man doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. What can I do?

Killer
06-02-2010, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by SteelersinCA
I think Obama has made it pretty clear that we aren't going to stand behind them when they go crazy.



White House Backs UN Stance on Israeli Flotilla Raid....

What can I do?

PLUG THE DAMN HOLE!

heh heh - you asked

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 02:32 AM
What's up with the lag-time? Odd.

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 02:34 AM
With that line of reasoning... The Jewish bible (you know the one that Islam copied off) (and Christian bible) also tells the muslim world that so many of "the enemies of Israel" will be destroyed that there will be only a small fraction of them left... I hope they are listening...
In addition. I think the guys that said, and done, that (and their supporters) have suffered A LOT more by American hands... than America has suffered from theirs...

My point is that "that line of reasoning" is completely screwy... no, criminal. It's the transnational version of telling a woman who's been raped that she shouldn't have been wearing such a short skirt.

Who cares what anyone's bible says? If the only point to bibles is to put lipstick on horrific behavior, why bother? Well, I guess that does actually make bibles very useful for the higher-ups, doesn't it?

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 03:01 AM
Israel had every reason to board the ship and defend themselves against what could have possibly been an arm carrying ship, it was not until they were being attacked that they opened fire. Also by putting the subs out there they are protecting their country from what many believe could be an impending attack; so I do not understand the opposition to what they are doing is besides the fact that they took action instead of waiting for more of their citizens to be murdered.
Actually, they had no legal reason whatsoever to board the ship. Technically speaking, Palestine is a sovereign nation, as Israel itself accepted when it endorsed the Roadmap. Sovereignty means that it can receive transport ships in its ports. Certainly it can receive ships stocked with construction equipment.

The ships were also purposely manned by the aid organizers with high-profile peace activists from Israel, the US and Europe, for the purposes of discouraging Israel from doing precisely what they did. No one anticipated Israel's paranoid meltdown, however. Those same octogenarian peace activists just got schooled, to be sure. Watch them - and their affiliated groups - get radicalized into violently anti-Israeli factions now.

Israel has "missed" yet another opportunity for peace. By missed I mean purposely and violently squashed it.

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 03:04 AM
I don't really care what Israel does. They are a sovereign nation capable of wearing big boy pants and making their own decisions. I think Obama has made it pretty clear that we aren't going to stand behind them when they go crazy.

Crazy (http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/finkelstein310510.html) is the operative word...

We have to ask ourselves a simple, basic, fundamental question: can a lunatic state like Israel be trusted with two to three hundred nuclear devices when it is now threatening its neighbors Iran and Lebanon with an attack?

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 03:18 AM
oh really


White House Backs UN Stance on Israeli Flotilla Raid

The Obama administration is refusing to condemn Israel for its deadly raid on a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/White-House-Supports-UN-Stance-on-Gaza-Convoy-Raid-95347184.html

Uh, Killer... didn't you just state five minutes ago that the UN was bringing down the hammer on Israel, but not on North Korea? And now you post that the US and UN are refusing to condemn Israel?
:hmm:
Does all of reality bend to your most short-sighted whims and rhetorical needs?

Killer
06-02-2010, 07:38 AM
Barry wants the jew vote. That trumps everything. It turned FL blue.
Nobody cares what Europe wants.

LLT
06-02-2010, 07:53 AM
So, an eye-for-an-eye is justice?

I think if you are a country surrounded by a people-group who have sworn to wipe you off the face of the earth....You have to show yourself to be not only capable of protecting yourself but also able to give back more than you get. I have never heard the Israeli's say they wanted an eye for an eye. They have always been more of a 3 for 1 country. For every attack they endure, they will retaliate with three times the force.

Just as a side bar and from personal experience. The Israeli's promote their military officers through competance and ability....while all the Arab allies I dealt with handed out military positions due to family name. It might explain why the combined arab world has traditionally had trouble with such a tine country.

suitanim
06-02-2010, 08:14 AM
First off, Israel itself has admitted it made many mistakes in the raid. It sounds like they had poor intelligence...but, it's important to bear in mind that Hezbollah was dropping tons of rockets on Israel just a couple years ago. It's got to be difficult living under those kind of circumstances...

SteelerEmpire
06-02-2010, 10:46 AM
Actually, in all honesty, the interception of those vessels is "more" for the safety of the citizens of Gaza than Israel. If Hamas gets ahold of more rockets and begins firing them into Israel, the citizens of Israel will begin pressuring the government to conduct another assault on Gaza. Only a handful of Israeli citizens will lose their lives due to those make-shift missiles, but thousands will die in Gaza if Israel launches another attack... and hundreds of thousands will suffer as a result of the loss of infrastructure. But Hamas is just as ruthless against its citizens as anyone... Muslim on Muslim crime PALES IN COMPARISON to what anyone else has done to them...

suitanim
06-02-2010, 11:53 AM
It's my understanding that the flotilla was only carrying humanitarian aid...which is allowed. THAT'S why this situation is so sticky for Israel...

SteelerEmpire
06-02-2010, 01:05 PM
It's my understanding that the flotilla was only carrying humanitarian aid...which is allowed. THAT'S why this situation is so sticky for Israel...

Actually it was not known by Israel what the "exact" contents of the shipments were as some of the shipments organizers were known to support terrorist groups (against Israel) in the past. Israel offered to deliver the goods themselves to Gaza but the offer was refused. This made the shipments look suspect to Israel and thus they were intercepted...

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 02:47 PM
First off, Israel itself has admitted it made many mistakes in the raid. It sounds like they had poor intelligence...but, it's important to bear in mind that Hezbollah was dropping tons of rockets on Israel just a couple years ago. It's got to be difficult living under those kind of circumstances...

This had nothing to do with poor intel. The aid mission was announced weeks or even months ahead of time, and all parties knew who and what was going to be aboard, who would be inspecting the cargo and where, etc. Israel deliberated how to deal with this shipment for over a full week in the Knesset, and this commando raid was the result of that deliberation.

How bad does your intel need to be that your parliament can talk itself into slaughtering peace activists in international waters? As that retired Marine officer I quoted in another thread said: "a bad show all around... GMAFB."

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 02:53 PM
I think if you are a country surrounded by a people-group who have sworn to wipe you off the face of the earth....You have to show yourself to be not only capable of protecting yourself but also able to give back more than you get. I have never heard the Israeli's say they wanted an eye for an eye. They have always been more of a 3 for 1 country. For every attack they endure, they will retaliate with three times the force.

Just as a side bar and from personal experience. The Israeli's promote their military officers through competance and ability....while all the Arab allies I dealt with handed out military positions due to family name. It might explain why the combined arab world has traditionally had trouble with such a tine country.

You don't think the $3B in military, intel and economic aid that Israel receives each and every year from the United States has anything to do with their "successes"?

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 03:00 PM
Actually it was not known by Israel what the "exact" contents of the shipments were as some of the shipments organizers were known to support terrorist groups (against Israel) in the past. Israel offered to deliver the goods themselves to Gaza but the offer was refused. This made the shipments look suspect to Israel and thus they were intercepted...

How do you think Israel would respond if the Palestinian Authority offered to inspect cargo intended for Israel, promising to pass it on once it had been cleared? Besides, if they are so eager for humanitarian aid to get through, they show drop the blockade, which is illegal anyway.

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 03:02 PM
Actually it was not known by Israel what the "exact" contents of the shipments were as some of the shipments organizers were known to support terrorist groups (against Israel) in the past. Israel offered to deliver the goods themselves to Gaza but the offer was refused. This made the shipments look suspect to Israel and thus they were intercepted...

Wrong. Everyone on the planet knew. This was a show of force by Israel, pure and simple. I suspect the point was to prove to the world that "We're crazy... Don't fuck with us," or something along those lines.

LLT
06-02-2010, 04:07 PM
You don't think the $3B in military, intel and economic aid that Israel receives each and every year have anything to do with their "successes"?

I think that only one of us has personally been involved with both Israeli and Arab soldiers and can make a determination on the effectiveness of their armed forces. I would argue that the "$3B in military, intel and economic aid" that they recieve has more to do with survival then it does with aggression.

You really should educate yourself in regards to the principles of Hamas

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or their "Charter" :

****"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, has gone on record as saying that t "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next. Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews."

Hamas leader Fathi Hammad was more specific in saying ""We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity"

I think if we as Americans faced that same level of anomicity towards our very existence....you would see an even greater level of aggression towards those who "swore" to destroy us.

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 04:34 PM
I think that only one of us has personally been involved with both Israeli and Arab soldiers and can make a determination on the effectiveness of their armed forces. I would argue that the "$3B in military, intel and economic aid" that they recieve has more to do with survival then it does with aggression.

You really should educate yourself in regards to the principles of Hamas

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or their "Charter" :

****"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, has gone on record as saying that t "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next. Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews."

Hamas leader Fathi Hammad was more specific in saying ""We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity"

I think if we as Americans faced that same level of anomicity towards our very existence....you would see an even greater level of aggression towards those who "swore" to destroy us.

I will gladly educate myself on this issue. I'm confident that what I will find is that 60+ years of non-stop violence has warped minds on both sides. However, I'm still impressed with - and choose to focus upon - the voices of peace and reason on both sides.

The role of Hamas' Charter, or Covenant, has been called into question by many:

The charter's current status within Hamas is unclear. For example, Mousa Abu Marzook, the deputy of the political bureau of Hamas, in 2007 described the charter as "an essentially revolutionary document born of the intolerable conditions under occupation" in 1988. Senior British diplomat and former British ambassador to the UN Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006". Greenstock also stated that Hamas is not intent on the destruction of Israel.

More important is how actual members of Hamas view themselves when pressed to do so:

A memorandum prepared by the political bureau of Hamas in the 1990s at the request of western diplomats, published in a book by Azzam Tamimi, states that Hamas is "a Palestinian national liberation movement that struggles for the liberation of the Palestinian occupied territories and for the recognition of Palestinian legitimate rights." Hamas, the document stated, "regards itself as an extension of an old tradition that goes back to the early 20th century struggle against British and Zionist colonialism in Palestine." The memorandum notes that, in principle, Hamas does not endorse targeting civilians, but argues that such attacks represented "an exception necessitated by Israel's insistence on targeting Palestinian civilians and by Israel's refusal to agree to an understanding prohibiting the killing of civilians on both sides comparable to the one reached between Israel and Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon." Even in the 1990s, according to the memorandum, the organization foresaw the day when "dialogue" between itself and Israel would be possible, but warned that "The prospect of the movement initiating, or accepting dialogue with Israel is nonexistent at present because of the skewed balance of power between the Palestinians and the Israelis. In Sheikh Yassin's words: "There can be no dialogue between a party that is strong and oppressive and another that is weak and oppressed. There can be no dialogue except after the end of oppression.'"
Words don't matter, though. I think you and I can see that clearly enough. Actions are what count, and both sides have unspeakable amounts of blood on their hands. In such a situation, it is the responsibility of the occupying power to do all it can to stop the violence, and Israel regularly does the opposite. Just like Spider-Man says, the responsibility follows the power, and Israel has the power, in local terms.

The U.S., ultimately, has the lion's share of responsibility, since as you say, Israel wouldn't even exist at this point without massive and unquestioned support from us. The point to this thread, as I see it, is that Israel's recent actions are both psychotic and suicidal, as it has opened a crease in the near-total blockade on serious debate in this country regarding support for the state of Israel. It started with General Petraeus' comments, and this incident will cause it to start to snowball.

NJarhead
06-02-2010, 04:52 PM
Words don't matter, though. I think you and I can see that clearly enough. Actions are what count, and both sides have unspeakable amounts of blood on their hands. In such a situation, it is the responsibility of the occupying power to do all it can to stop the violence, and Israel regularly does the opposite. Just like Spider-Man says, the responsibility follows the power, and Israel has the power, in local terms.



Good. Now that you've accepted that, then accept that sometimes diplomacy fails so we opt for bitch slapping those in need.

This goes back to your anti-war crap.

Mach1
06-02-2010, 05:13 PM
Ric is that you???

http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/rodney_king.jpg

:lol:

ricardisimo
06-02-2010, 05:34 PM
Ric is that you???

http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/rodney_king.jpg

:lol:

I'm the guy in the picture writing some note on Rodney King's back. I think it was a love note, or my phone number, but I can't recall now.

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 01:56 AM
June 2, 2010
Mad-Dog of the Planet
Notch Up Another Disaster for Israel's Well-Oiled Propaganda Machine

By PATRICK COCKBURN

An old Israeli saying describing various less-than-esteemed military leaders says: "He was so stupid that even the other generals noticed." The same derisive remark could be applied almost without exception to the present generation of Israeli politicians.

Such healthy skepticism among Israelis about the abilities of their military and political leaders has unfortunately ebbed in recent decades. As a result, Israelis are left perplexed as to why their wars, military interventions and armed actions have so often ended in failure since the 1973 war, despite the superiority of their armed forces.

The latest example of this is the assault on the Gaza aid convoy by naval commandos, a confrontation initiated by Israel which thereby ensured that the convoy's organizers achieved their objectives to a degree beyond their wildest dreams. By using assault troops in a police action against civilians with predictably bloody results Israel managed to focus international attention on its blockade of Gaza, which the world had hitherto largely ignored. The Israeli action infuriated Turkey, once its strongest ally in the region, and strengthened the claim of Hamas to Palestinian leadership.

The capacity of Israel to shoot itself in the foot needs explanation. From the beginning the operation was idiotic, since Israel was always likely to look bad after any confrontation between élite troops and civilian protesters. Even more ludicrous is the Israeli explanation that their élite and heavily armed soldiers were at risk of their lives because they had to use thick gloves to protect their hands when sliding down cables from a helicopter and therefore could not use their weapons.

The nature of the fiasco should cause little surprise because such botched Israeli military actions have been the norm for years. The 1982 invasion of Lebanon was discredited by the massacre of Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps by Christian militias loosed on them by Israeli army commanders. Syria, not Israel, became the predominant power in Lebanon. In south Lebanon, the Israeli army fought a long and unsuccessful guerrilla war against Hizbollah. The bombardments of Lebanon in 1996 and 2006 left Hizbollah stronger, and a similar attack on Gaza in 2008 failed to weaken Hamas.

The problem is that nobody believes Israeli propaganda as much as Israelis. Pro-Palestinian activists often lament the fluency and mendacity of Israeli spokesmen on the airwaves and the pervasive influence of Israel's supporters abroad. But, in reality, these PR campaigns are Israel's greatest weakness, because they distort Israelis' sense of reality. Defeats and failures are portrayed as victories and successes.

The slaughter of civilians is justified as a military necessity or somehow the fault of the other side. Opponents are demonized as bloodthirsty terrorists. Comforted by such benign accounts of their activities, Israeli leaders are consumed by arrogance because they come to believe they have never made a mistake. Denial that errors have occurred makes it extremely difficult to sack generals or ministers, however gross their incompetence or record of failure.

Many Israelis privately take their own propaganda with a pinch of salt, though the number is diminishing. But abroad, the most third-rate Israeli politicians strut before fawning audiences as heroic defenders of the state. Not surprisingly they return home with a dangerously inflated idea of their own abilities and in a perilously self-important mood.

The Israeli propaganda machine, official and private, has been running full throttle in the last few days justifying the assault on the aid convoy to Gaza. Probably spokesmen feel they are performing well given the weakness of their case. In fact, they do nothing but harm to Israel. The greater their success in denying gross and culpable mistakes, the more likely it is that the perpetrators will hold their jobs – and the more likely it is that the mistakes will be endlessly repeated.

augustashark
06-03-2010, 02:07 AM
How can you take anything seriously from a writer named Patrick Cockburn?

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 03:54 AM
How can you take anything seriously from a writer named Patrick Cockburn?

Would you prefer if the author were Virginia Yeast-Infection? Besides, didn't you vote for Bush, with his VP Dick, and Secretaries Colon and Kindasleeza?

urgle burgle
06-03-2010, 05:01 AM
Would you prefer if the author were Virginia Yeast-Infection? Besides, didn't you vote for Bush, with his VP Dick, and Secretaries Colon and Kindasleeza?

everything else was funny, but, ya gotta admit, kindasleeza was a huge reach. i expected better.

Killer
06-03-2010, 08:32 AM
Cry for the terrorists...


Confirmed Hamas Leader Among Flotilla 'Activists'

A confirmed terrorist leader was among the Gaza flotilla extremists aboard the Mavi Marmara on Monday, holding a Dutch passport.

Amin Abu Rashed, 43, was among the militants arrested on the Turkish vessel following the vicious attack on Israeli Naval commandos who boarded the ship. The Palestinian Authority Arab holds a Dutch passport and operates out of Rotterdam as the leader of the Hamas terrorist network in the Netherlands. He has presented himself to Dutch media and others as a “human rights activist.”

According to a report posted Tuesday on the Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report, Abu Rashed – also known as Amin Abu Ibrahim – was “one of the chief organizers of the Gaza flotilla.”

According to the GMB Daily Report, “Previous posts have described the heavy participation of the Global Muslim Brotherhood in the Gaza flotilla, the Muslim Brotherhood background of the Al Jazeera journalist reporting from the Turkish ship involved in the confrontation, and the intent of the Global Muslim Brotherhood to send another flotilla to Gaza.”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137859

steelersfanman92
06-03-2010, 10:32 AM
Actually, they had no legal reason whatsoever to board the ship. Technically speaking, Palestine is a sovereign nation, as Israel itself accepted when it endorsed the Roadmap. Sovereignty means that it can receive transport ships in its ports. Certainly it can receive ships stocked with construction equipment.

The ships were also purposely manned by the aid organizers with high-profile peace activists from Israel, the US and Europe, for the purposes of discouraging Israel from doing precisely what they did. No one anticipated Israel's paranoid meltdown, however. Those same octogenarian peace activists just got schooled, to be sure. Watch them - and their affiliated groups - get radicalized into violently anti-Israeli factions now.

Israel has "missed" yet another opportunity for peace. By missed I mean purposely and violently squashed it.

Well actually Israel had legal reason to board the ship


Alan DershowitzPosted: June 1, 2010 03:40 PM

Israel's Actions Were Entirely Lawful Though Probably Unwise

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Read More: Egypt Port Israel , Gaza , Gaza Blockade , Gaza Flotilla , Israel , Israel Flotilla , Mideast , World News
Although the wisdom of Israel's actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is open to question, the legality of its actions is not. What Israel did was entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to understand why Israel acted within its rights, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed.

First, there is the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which included a naval blockade. Recall that when Israel ended its occupation of Gaza, it did not impose a blockade. Indeed it left behind agricultural facilities in the hope that the newly liberated Gaza Strip would become a peaceful and productive area. Instead Hamas seized control over Gaza and engaged in acts of warfare against Israel. These acts of warfare featured anti-personnel rockets, nearly 10,000 of them, directed at Israeli civilians. This was not only an act of warfare, it was a war crime. Israel responded to the rockets by declaring a blockade, the purpose of which was to assure that no rockets, or other material that could be used for making war against Israeli civilians, was permitted into Gaza. Israel allowed humanitarian aid through its checkpoints. Egypt as well participated in the blockade. There was never a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, merely a shortage of certain goods that would end if the rocket attacks ended.

The legality of blockades as a response to acts of war is not subject to serious doubt. When the United States blockaded Cuba during the missile crisis, the State Department issued an opinion declaring the blockade to be lawful. This, despite the fact that Cuba had not engaged in any act of belligerency against the United States. Other nations have similarly enforced naval blockades to assure their own security.

The second issue is whether it is lawful to enforce a legal blockade in international waters. Again, law and practice are clear. If there is no doubt that the offending ships have made a firm determination to break the blockade, then the blockade may be enforced before the offending ships cross the line into domestic waters. Again the United States and other western countries have frequently boarded ships at high sea in order to assure their security.

Third, were those on board the flotilla innocent non-combatants or did they lose that status once they agreed to engage in the military act of breaking the blockade? Let there be no mistake about the purpose of this flotilla. It was decidedly not to provide humanitarian aid to the residents of Gaza, but rather the break the entirely lawful Israeli military blockade. The proof lies in the fact that both Israel and Egypt offered to have all the food, medicine and other humanitarian goods sent to Gaza, if the boats agreed to land in an Israeli or Egyptian port. That humanitarian offer was soundly rejected by the leaders of the flotilla who publicly announced:

"This mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege on 1.5 million Palestinians." (AFP, May 27, 2010.)

The act of breaking a military siege is itself a military act, and those knowingly participating in such military action put in doubt their status as non-combatants.

It is a close question whether "civilians" who agree too participate in the breaking of a military blockade have become combatants. They are certainly something different than pure, innocent civilians, and perhaps they are also somewhat different from pure armed combatants. They fit uncomfortably onto the continuum of civilianality that has come to characterize asymmetrical warfare.

Finally, we come to the issue of the right of self-defense engaged in by Israeli soldiers who were attacked by activists on the boat. There can be little doubt that the moment any person on the boat picked up a weapon and began to attack Israeli soldiers boarding the vessel, they lost their status as innocent civilians. Even if that were not the case, under ordinary civilian rules of self defense, every Israeli soldier had the right to protect himself and his colleagues from attack by knife and pipe wielding assailants. Less there be any doubt that Israeli soldiers were under attack, simply view the video and watch, as so-called peaceful "activists" repeatedly pummel Israeli soldiers with metal rods. Every individual has the right to repel such attacks by the use of lethal force, especially when the soldiers were so outnumbered on the deck of the ship. Recall that Israel's rules of engagement required its soldiers to fire only paintballs unless their lives were in danger. Would any country in the world deny its soldiers the right of self-defense under comparable circumstances?

Notwithstanding the legality of Israel's actions, the international community has once again ganged up on Israel. In doing so, Israel's critics have failed to pinpoint precisely what Israel did that allegedly violates international law. Some have wrongly focused on the blockade itself. Others have erroneously pointed to the location of the boarding in international waters. Most have simply pointed to the deaths of so-called peace activists, though these deaths appear to be the result of lawful acts of self-defense. None of these factors alone warrant condemnation, but the end result surely deserves scrutiny by Israeli policy makers. There can be little doubt that the mission was a failure, as judged by its results. It is important, however, to distinguish between faulty policies on the one hand, and alleged violations of international law on the other hand. Only the latter would warrant international intervention, and the case has simply not been made that Israel violated international law.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/israels-actions-were-enti_b_596285.html?view=print

suitanim
06-03-2010, 11:42 AM
The ministry of truth is now employing the euphemism "activists" for known terrorists and those known to support terrorists. It was clever of the terrorists to cloak this operation by including some hippy-dippy types, poets, and activists and such, ostensibly carrying humanitarian aid...

Bottom line, this was a trap, and Israel fell into it...and now all the Jew haters and anti-Semites of the World can stand together and thump their chests in unison about how they've all been wronged.

Vincent
06-03-2010, 12:28 PM
As always, a picture is worth a thousand words. This is how ridiculous this is…

http://www.religionstudy.com/maps/images/arabs_vs_israel.jpg

With the historical exception of the US and UK (and even those aren’t reliable at this point), the ENTIRE world is against Israel. But let’s forget for now the ROW, and even the 1.3 billion muslims seething to eradicate Israel from the planet (their words). Let’s just look at the arabs cowering against that monolith of oppression and tyranny, Israel. Yes, Israel is that little green patch upper center right, and yes, the pink areas are the arabs. Stop laughing. The arabs are serious.

The entirety of the Islamic world and the arab world (excepting, of course, Arab Christians) cannot bear the reality of a tiny little Jewish homeland anywhere, much worse, where it is. What is the big damn problem? Any reasonable neighbors would knock on the door and ask if they needed anything, and that is what the muslim book instructs the “brethren” to do… unless they’re Jews or Christians. I have experienced this personally.

But, no. The arabs aren’t good neighbors. Instead they have repeatedly ganged up on their little neighbor that they outnumber by orders of magnitude. And each time the Israelis defended themselves. No, actually they rolled the arabs. They kicked their sniveling coward asses.

“Oh, but ‘Palestine’…”. Bullshit. Palestine isn’t even a pimple on the ass of the arab world. In fact, palestine in history was, is, and ever shall be, even on its best day, and at it’s most, an administrative designation. That’s what it was to the Romans who gave “palestine” their name. That’s what it was to every invader and occupier over the millennia. That’s what it was to the Ottomans. That’s what it was to the British. That’s what it was to the League of Nations and the United Nations. And, as evidenced by the way the arabs have “welcomed” their Palestinian “brothers” into their homes, that is all palestinians are to the arabs. Well, let me corrent that. They’re “leverage”. That aforementioned towering monolith hasn’t been moved by vastly superior armies, so the gambit is now left to “world opinion”, or as is known, 4th Gen warfare. Recall that the world hates Israel.

So the sniveling cowards have pulled back to their “kingdoms” and have surrounded Israel with surrogates. Some Westerners call the surrogates “terrorists”, some call them “freedom fighters”, some leftist elements call them “human rights activists.” Stop laughing dammit!

Now we have the pathetic remnant of Lebanon (your “human rights activists” at work) providing hezbollah’s base of operations to the North, hamas cordoned off in the Gaza to the South, and achmadinashithead’s surrogate Syria to the Northeast, and, of course those happy-go-lucky palestinians within. All of that because of that tiny patch of real estate. It would be laughable if it weren’t so damn pathetic.

Having failed, as feckless comewads do, to move the Israelis militarily, the sniveling cowards have resorted to what milfolk call “asymmetrical warfare”, or its arab designation, intifada. And it has been effective at tying up scarce and vital Israeli resources, and further galvanizing world opinion against Israel. So we saw the first and second “intifadas” of and we were left with images like these etched into our loving liberal “minds”.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/First_intifada.jpg

“Those poor beaten down palestinian ‘freedom fighters’ standing up to those nazi Israelis”. Indeed.
The Gaza Strip has been blockaded by Israel and Egypt since June 2007, when hamas took control of palestinian territory, and for what both determined was good reason – hamas are terrorists.

The “aid flotilla” spectacle is tactically part of the same strategy. So here we are - hamas holed up by Israel and Egypt. It’s a PR bonanza looking for an opportunity to happen. Run the blockade with an “aid flotilla”. Brilliant. Ignore that Israel and Egypt signaled an easing of the blockade, or that Israel offered to port the flotilla, inspect the cargo, and even transport it to “those in need”. No, this is intifada. They need the images.

The “Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief”, or IHH, is an “islamic charity”. The IHH organized the flotilla. IHH "has publicly professed connections to Egypt's Islamic Brotherhood and the Hamas, and has been a central actor of fund raising and financing terror for Hamas around the world". So have our own CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations). And just as CAIR takes advantage of “muslim oppression” (no, really) here in the US to raise funds, so do the IHH and others worldwide use “bad” Israeli publicity for same.

BTW, the IHH are based in Turkey. You may recall the slaughter of 2 million Christians in Turkey back in the 1920s. And just as “the holocaust never happened”, that “never happened”. Am I making linkage between that and the IHH? Yes. Yes I am. Islam.

The IHH as a front for funding terrorist organizations and sending terrorists to countries such as Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya. Numerous reports have described the heavy participation of the Global Muslim Brotherhood in the Gaza flotilla, and the intent of the Global Muslim Brotherhood to send another flotilla to Gaza. The IHH and al qaeda are part of the Muslim Brotherhood.
They got their images. They got the video. But it wasn’t really what they wanted.

The “activists” on the flotilla shouted anti-Jewish battle cries and spoke of using "resistance" against Israel, stating only two possible outcomes "either martyrdom or reaching Gaza" and "[Remember] Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!" Khaibar is the name of the last Jewish village defeated by Islam's prophet Muhammad in AD 628. The battle marked the end of the Jewish presence in Arabia. The main ship was named the MV Rachel Corrie, namesake of a far-left activist from the International Solidarity Movement who died in 2003 while serving as a human shield to protect a terrorist.

The “religion of peace” my sweet infidel ass.

Talk about collusion. This action was designed to use opinion as a weapon against Israel, a key component of 4th gen warfare.

SteelerEmpire
06-03-2010, 01:24 PM
As always, a picture is worth a thousand words. This is how ridiculous this is…

http://www.religionstudy.com/maps/images/arabs_vs_israel.jpg

With the historical exception of the US and UK (and even those aren’t reliable at this point), the ENTIRE world is against Israel. But let’s forget for now the ROW, and even the 1.3 billion muslims seething to eradicate Israel from the planet (their words). Let’s just look at the arabs cowering against that monolith of oppression and tyranny, Israel. Yes, Israel is that little green patch upper center right, and yes, the pink areas are the arabs. Stop laughing. The arabs are serious.

The entirety of the Islamic world and the arab world (excepting, of course, Arab Christians) cannot bear the reality of a tiny little Jewish homeland anywhere, much worse, where it is. What is the big damn problem? Any reasonable neighbors would knock on the door and ask if they needed anything, and that is what the muslim book instructs the “brethren” to do… unless they’re Jews or Christians. I have experienced this personally.

But, no. The arabs aren’t good neighbors. Instead they have repeatedly ganged up on their little neighbor that they outnumber by orders of magnitude. And each time the Israelis defended themselves. No, actually they rolled the arabs. They kicked their sniveling coward asses.

“Oh, but ‘Palestine’…”. Bullshit. Palestine isn’t even a pimple on the ass of the arab world. In fact, palestine in history was, is, and ever shall be, even on its best day, and at it’s most, an administrative designation. That’s what it was to the Romans who gave “palestine” their name. That’s what it was to every invader and occupier over the millennia. That’s what it was to the Ottomans. That’s what it was to the British. That’s what it was to the League of Nations and the United Nations. And, as evidenced by the way the arabs have “welcomed” their Palestinian “brothers” into their homes, that is all palestinians are to the arabs. Well, let me corrent that. They’re “leverage”. That aforementioned towering monolith hasn’t been moved by vastly superior armies, so the gambit is now left to “world opinion”, or as is known, 4th Gen warfare. Recall that the world hates Israel.

So the sniveling cowards have pulled back to their “kingdoms” and have surrounded Israel with surrogates. Some Westerners call the surrogates “terrorists”, some call them “freedom fighters”, some leftist elements call them “human rights activists.” Stop laughing dammit!

Now we have the pathetic remnant of Lebanon (your “human rights activists” at work) providing hezbollah’s base of operations to the North, hamas cordoned off in the Gaza to the South, and achmadinashithead’s surrogate Syria to the Northeast, and, of course those happy-go-lucky palestinians within. All of that because of that tiny patch of real estate. It would be laughable if it weren’t so damn pathetic.

Having failed, as feckless comewads do, to move the Israelis militarily, the sniveling cowards have resorted to what milfolk call “asymmetrical warfare”, or its arab designation, intifada. And it has been effective at tying up scarce and vital Israeli resources, and further galvanizing world opinion against Israel. So we saw the first and second “intifadas” of and we were left with images like these etched into our loving liberal “minds”.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/First_intifada.jpg

“Those poor beaten down palestinian ‘freedom fighters’ standing up to those nazi Israelis”. Indeed.
The Gaza Strip has been blockaded by Israel and Egypt since June 2007, when hamas took control of palestinian territory, and for what both determined was good reason – hamas are terrorists.

The “aid flotilla” spectacle is tactically part of the same strategy. So here we are - hamas holed up by Israel and Egypt. It’s a PR bonanza looking for an opportunity to happen. Run the blockade with an “aid flotilla”. Brilliant. Ignore that Israel and Egypt signaled an easing of the blockade, or that Israel offered to port the flotilla, inspect the cargo, and even transport it to “those in need”. No, this is intifada. They need the images.

The “Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief”, or IHH, is an “islamic charity”. The IHH organized the flotilla. IHH "has publicly professed connections to Egypt's Islamic Brotherhood and the Hamas, and has been a central actor of fund raising and financing terror for Hamas around the world". So have our own CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations). And just as CAIR takes advantage of “muslim oppression” (no, really) here in the US to raise funds, so do the IHH and others worldwide use “bad” Israeli publicity for same.

BTW, the IHH are based in Turkey. You may recall the slaughter of 2 million Christians in Turkey back in the 1920s. And just as “the holocaust never happened”, that “never happened”. Am I making linkage between that and the IHH? Yes. Yes I am. Islam.

The IHH as a front for funding terrorist organizations and sending terrorists to countries such as Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya. Numerous reports have described the heavy participation of the Global Muslim Brotherhood in the Gaza flotilla, and the intent of the Global Muslim Brotherhood to send another flotilla to Gaza. The IHH and al qaeda are part of the Muslim Brotherhood.
They got their images. They got the video. But it wasn’t really what they wanted.

The “activists” on the flotilla shouted anti-Jewish battle cries and spoke of using "resistance" against Israel, stating only two possible outcomes "either martyrdom or reaching Gaza" and "[Remember] Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!" Khaibar is the name of the last Jewish village defeated by Islam's prophet Muhammad in AD 628. The battle marked the end of the Jewish presence in Arabia. The main ship was named the MV Rachel Corrie, namesake of a far-left activist from the International Solidarity Movement who died in 2003 while serving as a human shield to protect a terrorist.

The “religion of peace” my sweet infidel ass.

Talk about collusion. This action was designed to use opinion as a weapon against Israel, a key component of 4th gen warfare.

That map puts it into perspective. I noticed they left Iran and a few others "Muslim" (not Arab) states off though... so the "actual" resistance to Israel's existence is much higher. 5 of those nations attacked Israel in the late 60's in a surprise attack and were defeated by Israel in only 6 days... Even til this day they still just don't get it... The USA still does not even teach Israeli military tactics til this day because they can't be adequately explained... If GOD is with you, who can be against you...? Anyway... that's how I see it...

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 03:30 PM
everything else was funny, but, ya gotta admit, kindasleeza was a huge reach. i expected better.

Not all of us can attain your own high standards, UB.

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 03:52 PM
Umm... Vincent... How exactly is posting a picture of the Palestinian version of Tiananmen Square helping your case?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/First_intifada.jpg
:confused:

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 04:01 PM
Cry for the terrorists...


Confirmed Hamas Leader Among Flotilla 'Activists'

A confirmed terrorist leader was among the Gaza flotilla extremists aboard the Mavi Marmara on Monday, holding a Dutch passport.

Amin Abu Rashed, 43, was among the militants arrested on the Turkish vessel following the vicious attack on Israeli Naval commandos who boarded the ship. The Palestinian Authority Arab holds a Dutch passport and operates out of Rotterdam as the leader of the Hamas terrorist network in the Netherlands. He has presented himself to Dutch media and others as a “human rights activist.”

According to a report posted Tuesday on the Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report, Abu Rashed – also known as Amin Abu Ibrahim – was “one of the chief organizers of the Gaza flotilla.”

According to the GMB Daily Report, “Previous posts have described the heavy participation of the Global Muslim Brotherhood in the Gaza flotilla, the Muslim Brotherhood background of the Al Jazeera journalist reporting from the Turkish ship involved in the confrontation, and the intent of the Global Muslim Brotherhood to send another flotilla to Gaza.”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137859

Curious that Ha'aretz (http://www.haaretz.com/) doesn't mention this terrorist on the flotilla... You'd think this would be big news in Israel, and not just on the lunatic fringe funny pages.

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 04:38 PM
The ministry of truth is now employing the euphemism "activists" for known terrorists and those known to support terrorists. It was clever of the terrorists to cloak this operation by including some hippy-dippy types, poets, and activists and such, ostensibly carrying humanitarian aid...

Bottom line, this was a trap, and Israel fell into it...and now all the Jew haters and anti-Semites of the World can stand together and thump their chests in unison about how they've all been wronged.

It's difficult for any non-Zionist anywhere in the world not to be labeled a terrorist by Israel, but it is impossible if you are a member of Hamas. Never mind that Hamas won a clear majority in 2006, and the Palestinians in Gaza have been punished ever since for daring to voting their conscience in free and fair elections. Never mind that Hamas has renounced suicide bombings, and withdrawn their call for an end to Israel. Never mind that Yassin and Rantissi both offered an end to armed resistance in exchange for the establishment of a Palestinian state and the answer from Israel for both of them was a "targeted killing" by rocket attack... what most people would call mass murder.

Never mind that the vast majority of blood is on Israel's hands, nor that almost all of it was so before the First and Second Intifada... Never mind any of these things. Israel says you are a terrorist, then you are a terrorist... y punto. The IDF certainly is not a terrorist organization, no matter what the numbers might suggest, so wipe that thought from your minds immediately.

To your last point, yes this was a trap. It was a trap that was set in the most public and open way possible, so it is mind-boggling that the trap worked at all, let alone so fabulously well, from the perspective of Hamas. Hence Mr. Cockburn's questioning of the intelligence of the current Israeli leadership. Heads had better roll in Tel Aviv, both for Gaza's sake as well as Israel's.

The Patriot
06-03-2010, 05:12 PM
The ministry of truth is now employing the euphemism "activists" for known terrorists and those known to support terrorists. It was clever of the terrorists to cloak this operation by including some hippy-dippy types, poets, and activists and such, ostensibly carrying humanitarian aid...

Bottom line, this was a trap, and Israel fell into it...and now all the Jew haters and anti-Semites of the World can stand together and thump their chests in unison about how they've all been wronged.

You actually believe that a ship full of cement posed a legitimate danger to Israel. Do you realize the lengths you are going to excuse Israel's actions? You're saying that a group of "terrorists" coerced some hippies into taking supplies to Gaza, with the plan that Israeli soldiers would board the vessel, and it would make them look bad... That's ridiculous.

An American aboard that ship was shot four times in the head! And you're going to blow it off by believing the cover story. Bottom line, it's Israel's fault that they boarded the boat in the middle of the night and killed a dozen people, and they deserve the backlash they're getting.

The Patriot
06-03-2010, 05:32 PM
Cry for the terrorists...


Honestly, you'll let the state kill any foreigner if he has been labeled a "terrorist". Anyone connected to Hamas is a "terrorist" because Hamas fought Israel in a conflict that killed 1200 Palestinians and 13 Israelites.

Flying planes into the World Trade Center is terrorism. Transporting cement to Gaza is not.

Mach1
06-03-2010, 05:41 PM
Thats all fine and dandy, keep your heads buried in the sand.

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 05:42 PM
Well actually Israel had legal reason to board the ship

Dershowitz is a tool who thinks torture is effective, legal and constitutional... as long as it is Westerners doing the torturing and non-Westerners at the other end. Why his legal opinions matter at all is curious and telling.

That he would cite the US blockade of Cuba as an example of how blockades are routine and uncontroversial is... odd. Obviously, the US had no legal problem with its own blockade - nor with the subsequent embargo on Cuba, via Helms-Burton and other laws. Never mind that the UN has declared the embargo illegal every single year since 1992. As for the blockade itself, it must be judged legal or not by the UN Security Council (not the US and certainly not Alan Dershowitz) who are the only legal arbiters of such things since 1945. Besides, if as a consequence of the blockade the US had blown up the planet - as we almost did - I'm confident the Security Council would have felt such action to be not only illegal, but disproportionate... if anyone were still alive, that is.

Ask yourself if it would be legal for Europe to blockade the US whenever we elected a Republican president, because they disliked everything the party represented, and viewed them as a bad partner. Firstly, it's clearly illegal to do that. Secondly, can you think of a better way to bolster support for the Republican Party (or whatever party) than to have your foreign competitors and enemies blockade you for voting them in? In other words, Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal and stupid.

Shoes
06-03-2010, 06:06 PM
You actually believe that a ship full of cement posed a legitimate danger to Israel. Do you realize the lengths you are going to excuse Israel's actions? You're saying that a group of "terrorists" coerced some hippies into taking supplies to Gaza, with the plan that Israeli soldiers would board the vessel, and it would make them look bad... That's ridiculous.

An American aboard that ship was shot four times in the head! And you're going to blow it off by believing the cover story. Bottom line, it's Israel's fault that they boarded the boat in the middle of the night and killed a dozen people, and they deserve the backlash they're getting.

Tho I'm not excusing anyone's actions, I can surely understand how Israel could believe a ship full of cement could pose a legitimate danger to them. There are 25 Arab countries (except maybe Jordan), and a wacko in Iran who would love to drive the Jews into the sea. After all, how many "innocent" suicide bombers were children, old men and women or passengers on a US air carrier. This problem will not go away anytime soon when Arab children are taught to hate Jews.
I had a friend who was an IDF commando, he was searching a Palestinian school when he found math books worded to hate Jews. Like 15 dead Jews + 12 dead Jews = how many dead Jews?
Think about how we felt after 911...we didn't know when, how, or by who the next terrorists attack would come....now think about having 25 Arab countries + Iran who are not looking for your best.

steelersfanman92
06-03-2010, 06:08 PM
Ask yourself if it would be legal for Europe to blockade the US whenever we elected a Republican president, because they disliked everything the party represented, and viewed them as a bad partner. Firstly, it's clearly illegal to do that. Secondly, can you think of a better way to bolster support for the Republican Party (or whatever party) than to have your foreign competitors and enemies blockade you for voting them in? In other words, Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal and stupid.

You can not compare those two. If the Republican Party had murdered Europeans like Hamas has, if the Republicans shot missles at unarmed and unsuspecting men, women, and children then yes a blockade would be warrented, but those are two completely diferent scenarios.

I might be taking this a little personally due to the fact that I have friends fighting in the IDF and I am a huge supporter of Israel so I hold this issue pretty close to home.

Killer
06-03-2010, 06:15 PM
More good Palestinian Democrats, no doubt


Ohio couple arrested on terror conspiracy charges

TOLEDO, Ohio (AP) -- Federal authorities have accused an Ohio couple of conspiring to provide thousands of dollars to a Mideast terrorist group.
Authorities say the Toledo couple were arrested Thursday after an FBI informant gave them $200,000 cash, which they were preparing to hide in a vehicle to be shipped to Lebanon.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TERROR_CHARGES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-06-03-17-13-48

The Patriot
06-03-2010, 06:54 PM
Tho I'm not excusing anyone's actions, I can surely understand how Israel could believe a ship full of cement could pose a legitimate danger to them. There are 25 Arab countries (except maybe Jordan), and a wacko in Iran who would love to drive the Jews into the sea. After all, how many "innocent" suicide bombers were children, old men and women or passengers on a US air carrier. This problem will not go away anytime soon when Arab children are taught to hate Jews.
I had a friend who was an IDF commando, he was searching a Palestinian school when he found math books worded to hate Jews. Like 15 dead Jews + 12 dead Jews = how many dead Jews?
Think about how we felt after 911...we didn't know when, how, or by who the next terrorists attack would come....now think about having 25 Arab countries + Iran who are not looking for your best.

Oh yeah, they definitively have reason to be paranoid, but remember, they raided this Turkish vessel in the middle of the night. No negotiations. They told them to stop in international waters, they didn't, and so they fired.

Imagine if an Islamic country raided a US ship in international waters and killed a dozen people. How would we respond?

[edit]: I shouldn't have included that last question. This is gonna turn into an Obama leadership discussion. :uhoh:

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 07:35 PM
You can not compare those two. If the Republican Party had murdered Europeans like Hamas has, if the Republicans shot missles at unarmed and unsuspecting men, women, and children then yes a blockade would be warrented, but those are two completely diferent scenarios.

I might be taking this a little personally due to the fact that I have friends fighting in the IDF and I am a huge supporter of Israel so I hold this issue pretty close to home.

You are absolutely right that we cannot compare these two. The Republican Party, in terms of body count, should really only be compared to the Democratic Party. Since 2000, 1072 Israelis have been killed as a direct result of the conflict (as opposed to 6,348 Palestinians.) We killed more than that (under a Republican president) in just one operation in Afghanistan in 2006, Operation Mountain Thrust. Add up all of the deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq, Panama, Grenada, the War on Drugs, the shootdown of Iran Air Flight 655 and so on and so forth... well, you have a party with a lot of blood on its hands.

steelersfanman92
06-03-2010, 08:18 PM
The Truth about Mavi Marmara
The Gaza Flotilla was organized by IHH, an organization that supports suicide bombers and Global Jihad, including Al-Qaeda.
According the the Law of Maritime Neutrality, Israel had the full rights to board any ship trying to enter it's naval blockade, even while in international waters.
Israel repeatedly offered to transfer the humanitarian aid to Gaza, but the protesters refused.
Mavi Marmara's passengers prepared for a bloody, violent fight with caches of weapons.
The IDF Navy commandos were armed only with paintball guns (!) in order to minimize any injuries. They had pistols as sidearms only to be used in case of clear and present danger to their lives.
Upon descending into the top deck of Mavi Marmara, the IDF commandos were immediately surrounded and attacked with knives, clubs, slingshots, a fire bomb and pistols the violent mob wrested from them.
One soldier was carried by the mob and thrown from the top deck to the bottom one - a 30 feet deep fall.
Since Israel left the Gaza Strip in 2005 in hopes for peace, it only received thousands of rockets aimed at civilian centers in response.
Israel enforces a naval blockade on Gaza in order to prevent the smuggling of more weapons and explosives into the hands of terrorists.
Every week, Israel transports 15,000 tons of supplies and humanitarian aid to Gaza.
Any country in the world has the right to protect it's borders, and the right to stop attempts of illegal entry into it's waters.
All activists are receiving proper medical treatment, including the ones that tried to murder the Israeli troops.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0

Peace activists normally carry an array of knives and steel poles right?

http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/05/31/pictures-of-weapons-found-on-the-mavi-marmara-flotilla-ship-31-may-2010/


IDF: Global Jihad links on flotilla
By YAAKOV KATZ
01/06/2010

Fifty 'Mavi Marmara' passengers tied to global jihad network.



Dozens of passengers who were aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship are suspected of having connections with global jihad-affiliated terrorist organizations, defense officials said on Tuesday, amid growing concerns that Turkish warships would accompany a future flotilla to the Gaza Strip.

According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups.

RELATED:
Editorial: A turning point for Turkey
What is the IHH?

During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, at least nine foreign activists were killed during the navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which was trying to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip.

The group of over 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.

The military is working to identify the passengers and is looking into the possibility that some of them have been involved in terror attacks. Some of them are apparently known Islamic extremists.

“This is the group that was behind the violent lynch against the naval commandos,” a defense official said. “They came on board the ship prepared and after they had trained for the expected navy takeover.”

Late Tuesday, there were reports that Issam al-Budur, Jordan’s consul in Israel, reached an agreement with Israel according to which another group of 124 detained flotilla activists would be taken by bus to Jordan and sent from there to their home countries. The detainees are Jordanian, Mauritanian, Moroccan, Kuwaiti, Pakistani, Indonesian and Syrian.

Meanwhile Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned Israel not to test Ankara’s patience.

“Turkey’s hostility is as strong as its friendship is valuable,” he said. “Israel in no way can legitimize this murder, it cannot wash its hand of this blood.”

This comment, officials said, could signify a change in Turkish military posture in the event that another flotilla is dispatched to the Gaza Strip. One official said that the chances that Turkey would send navy ships were slim – due to its membership in NATO – but that the issue was of great concern.

“This is a definite possibility that we need to prepare for,” a senior defense official said.

The flotilla that arrived late on Sunday night comprised six ships, and another two ships, including the Rachel Corrie, are expected to attempt to enter Israeli waters in the coming days.

Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, said that two vessels, one a cargo ship and another carrying about three dozen passengers, would arrive in the region late this week or early next week.

“This initiative is not going to stop,” she said from the group’s base in Cyprus. “We think eventually Israel will get some kind of common sense. They’re going to have to stop the blockade of Gaza, and one of the ways to do this is for us to continue to send the boats.”

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen described the Rachel Corrie as Irish-owned and said it should be allowed to finish its mission, according to Reuters. The ship was carrying 15 activists, including a northern Irish Nobel Peace laureate.

“The government has formally requested the Israeli government to allow the Irish-owned ship... to be allowed to complete its journey unimpeded and discharge its humanitarian cargo in Gaza,” Cowen told members of parliament in Dublin.

Navy sources said that the ships sailing toward Gaza would be intercepted the same way the flotilla was stopped on Monday morning, although it had yet to be decided if the operation would be carried out by Shayetet 13, the navy’s commando unit.

“We are tracking the ships and are under orders to stop them,” a top navy officer said.

According to the sources, in a future operation, the navy would use more force.

“We boarded the ship [the Mavi Marmara] and were attacked as if it were a war,” one officer said. “That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it were a war.”


Again Israel is warning that if another one of those ships enters the water they will board it so the "peace activists" know exactly what they are doing and what they are up against. Israel is showing that they are not going to lie down in the faces of their enemies even though it may be unpopular in the international community to protect the lives of your citizens.

Killer
06-03-2010, 08:32 PM
The Palestinians have been hiding behind the skirts of women and strapping bombs on children for 50 years.

any "peace activist" should know what they're getting into by now

Shoes
06-03-2010, 08:44 PM
Oh yeah, they definitively have reason to be paranoid, but remember, they raided this Turkish vessel in the middle of the night. No negotiations. They told them to stop in international waters, they didn't, and so they fired.

Imagine if an Islamic country raided a US ship in international waters and killed a dozen people. How would we respond?

[edit]: I shouldn't have included that last question. This is gonna turn into an Obama leadership discussion. :uhoh:

I understand your point Pat, but the fact is, Israel is not on a mission to destroy Islam or any Islamic country. She is trying to survive and protect the citizens of Israel ...Jews & Arabs.
Sadly, that is not the case of most of the Islamic world.

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 08:54 PM
I understand your point Pat, but the fact is, Israel is not on a mission to destroy Islam or any Islamic country. She is trying to survive and protect the citizens of Israel ...Jews & Arabs.
Sadly, that is not the case of most of the Islamic world.

You mean any Islamic country other than Palestine, right? They've done a bang-up job at it, too.

Shoes
06-03-2010, 09:08 PM
You mean any Islamic country other than Palestine, right? They've done a bang-up job at it, too.

Ric, I mean any people who teach and who's mission is to destroy the Jewish people.

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 09:19 PM
Ric, I mean any people who teach and who's mission is to destroy the Jewish people.

Both Fatah and Hamas have abandoned their earlier insistence on Israel's demise, so it's a dead argument. We can agree that words don't matter, that only actions do... but the actions don't speak very well of Israel, now do they?

Vincent
06-03-2010, 09:28 PM
Umm... Vincent... How exactly is posting a picture of the Palestinian version of Tiananmen Square helping your case?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/First_intifada.jpg
:confused:

That's precisely why I chose that picture. That image was the object of intifada. Kick up enough bad behavior that the IDF has to take to the streets, then get the cameras and videos rolling and portray a country that is trying to maintain order among 7th century savages as "the nazis". Thats the story of this "aid flotilla" bullshit, nothing more.

Shoes
06-03-2010, 09:36 PM
Both Fatah and Hamas have abandoned their earlier insistence on Israel's demise, so it's a dead argument. We can agree that words don't matter, that only actions do... but the actions don't speak very well of Israel, now do they?

...and you believe Fatah and Hamas? I don't...at all! I spent many years overseas... for 2.5 years I spent night and day with the Kurdish Peshmerga's of northern Iraq and Iran, I also spent a few years with Arabs from many countries, including many Iranians. You know, almost everyone of these folks want the same things you and I want....peace, a job....and to make things better for their families. My wife and I have Arab friends that are closer to us than our own families. You can't put me in a box on this subject, but I do appreciate and respect your views Ric.

Vincent
06-03-2010, 09:46 PM
You are absolutely right that we cannot compare these two. The Republican Party, in terms of body count, should really only be compared to the Democratic Party.

Perhaps you missed the last century.

Now if you had made that statement in reference to the Civil War, it might have made at least some sense.


Since 2000, 1072 Israelis have been killed as a direct result of the conflict (as opposed to 6,348 Palestinians.) We killed more than that (under a Republican president) in just one operation in Afghanistan in 2006, Operation Mountain Thrust. Add up all of the deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq, Panama, Grenada, the War on Drugs, the shootdown of Iran Air Flight 655 and so on and so forth... well, you have a party with a lot of blood on its hands.

Gee whiz Ric, you make it sound like we're the sole source of death and mayhem on the planet. If you actually go by body count, we're relative pikers. The socialist regimes of the last century are the major leagues. Boy, they were something, weren't they?

You mention that 6-1 kill ration between the Israelis and the "palestinians". Who provokes that violence? You'd think by now those stone age thugs would get the message - behave, coexist.

If nothing else has been learned about Israel over the last 90 or so years, it is that they aren't going anywhere. They are home. That is where they live. That land was given to them by their God thousands of years ago. The world saw fit to restore it to them. The war is over. Battles will rage until the end of time, but the matter is decided.

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 10:13 PM
Perhaps you missed the last century.

Now if you had made that statement in reference to the Civil War, it might have made at least some sense.



Gee whiz Ric, you make it sound like we're the sole source of death and mayhem on the planet. If you actually go by body count, we're relative pikers. The socialist regimes of the last century are the major leagues. Boy, they were something, weren't they?

You mention that 6-1 kill ration between the Israelis and the "palestinians". Who provokes that violence? You'd think by now those stone age thugs would get the message - behave, coexist.

If nothing else has been learned about Israel over the last 90 or so years, it is that they aren't going anywhere. They are home. That is where they live. That land was given to them by their God thousands of years ago. The world saw fit to restore it to them. The war is over. Battles will rage until the end of time, but the matter is decided.

Whatever I think about the US, it would never occur to me in my direst rhetorical emergency to compare us to the Nazis, Stalinist Russia or the Khmer Rouge, etc., just as we cannot be compared to relative peons... like Hamas. You'll find yourself catching air here, Vinny.

You would think these Troglodytes would learn to behave, that they would see that violence breeds violence. But the Old Testament is a tough habit to break, evidently.

SteelersinCA
06-03-2010, 10:29 PM
These are people who have decided not to leave that desolate region since the damn of humanity, can we really expect rational thought from either side?

Vincent
06-03-2010, 10:37 PM
Whatever I think about the US, it would never occur to me in my direst rhetorical emergency to compare us to the Nazis, Stalinist Russia or the Khmer Rouge, etc., just as we cannot be compared to relative peons... like Hamas. You'll find yourself catching air here, Vinny

You're right. What separates us from both tiers is that we don't start it. We finish it. Yet another behavioral thread that binds us to the Israelis.


You would think these Troglodytes would learn to behave, that they would see that violence breeds violence. But the Old Testament is a tough habit to break, evidently.

Evidently.

BTW, for those keeping score, and I know all you sports fans like to keep score, here's a handy reminder that your friendly neighborhood "religion of peace" is hard at work killing and maiming while your lazy asses are asleep in bed... http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

Thats just 2 months worth of muslim "peace" activity. Scroll to the bottom for links to the complete resume of activity since 9/11. There have been 15,387 deadly (that means folks died) attacks since 9/11 by those practitioners of "the religion of peace". Hundreds of thousands of innocents murdered for islam. And now you too can follow the death count in the comfort and safety of your own home or office with this handy death meter. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/LinktoTROP.htm

The Patriot
06-03-2010, 11:07 PM
That's precisely why I chose that picture. That image was the object of intifada. Kick up enough bad behavior that the IDF has to take to the streets, then get the cameras and videos rolling and portray a country that is trying to maintain order among 7th century savages as "the nazis". Thats the story of this "aid flotilla" bullshit, nothing more.

I honestly can't believe this. Israel attacks a Turkish vessel in international waters and you're sucking their toes! The fact that you refer to the Palestinians as "savages" just illustrates your lack of empathy, and is spookily reminiscent of what was said about the Indians.

If an Israeli tank ever rolls into my neighborhood, I'm gonna be freaking out there throwing rocks too.

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 11:29 PM
You're right. What separates us from both tiers is that we don't start it. We finish it. Yet another behavioral thread that binds us to the Israelis.



Evidently.

BTW, for those keeping score, and I know all you sports fans like to keep score, here's a handy reminder that your friendly neighborhood "religion of peace" is hard at work killing and maiming while your lazy asses are asleep in bed... http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

Thats just 2 months worth of muslim "peace" activity. Scroll to the bottom for links to the complete resume of activity since 9/11. There have been 15,387 deadly (that means folks died) attacks since 9/11 by those practitioners of "the religion of peace". Hundreds of thousands of innocents murdered for islam. And now you too can follow the death count in the comfort and safety of your own home or office with this handy death meter. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/LinktoTROP.htm

You mean there's some religion that isn't just a bunch of backward, sociopathic kooks? You're not actually hoping to get me to defend Islam, are you? I think you've heard all of this before, but with the help of some Pepto-Bismol I can stomach Quakers, Unitarians, maybe the Jains... and that's about it. What do you think they all have in common?

Craic
06-03-2010, 11:31 PM
You mean there's some religion that isn't just a bunch of backward, sociopathic kooks? You're not actually hoping to get me to defend Islam, are you? I think you've heard all of this before, but with the help of some Pepto-Bismol I can stomach Quakers, Unitarians, maybe the Jains... and that's about it. What do you think they all have in common?

:rotfl: when combining this post with those over at planetsteelers... I think we both, and I'd argue everyone, has too much bias to see straight! Well, except for the Bungles. They just suck!

ricardisimo
06-03-2010, 11:39 PM
:rotfl: when combining this post with those over at planetsteelers... I think we both, and I'd argue everyone, has too much bias to see straight! Well, except for the Bungles. They just suck!
:drink:

Vincent
06-03-2010, 11:50 PM
I honestly can't believe this. Israel attacks a Turkish vessel in international waters and you're sucking their toes!

"Israel attacks". Have you read a word in this thread?


The fact that you refer to the Palestinians as "savages" just illustrates your lack of empathy...

Guilty as charged. I have no empathy for terrorists or anyone that supports them. I have a great deal of empathy for their victims and the poor individuals that have to weather their temper tantrums.


... and is spookily reminiscent of what was said about the Indians.

They too failed to adapt. Sad, but how do those cultures survive in the evolution of America?


If an Israeli tank ever rolls into my neighborhood, I'm gonna be freaking out there throwing rocks too.

Patriot, why do IDF tanks roll? Boredom? Errands? Random target practice? They are provoked by bad behavior. The :rofl2: "aid flotilla" :rofl2: is but another sordid example of the behavior.

Vincent
06-03-2010, 11:54 PM
I'd argue everyone, has too much bias to see straight!

Hatred of terrorism, terrorists, their supporters, and their sponsors is the only rational response.

ricardisimo
06-04-2010, 12:03 AM
Hatred of terrorism, terrorists, their supporters, and their sponsors is the only rational response.

And we're restricting this discussion to their terrorism against us, correct?

tony hipchest
06-04-2010, 12:31 AM
Evidently.

BTW, for those keeping score, and I know all you sports fans like to keep score, here's a handy reminder that your friendly neighborhood "religion of peace" is hard at work killing and maiming while your lazy asses are asleep in bed... http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

Thats just 2 months worth of muslim "peace" activity. Scroll to the bottom for links to the complete resume of activity since 9/11. There have been 15,387 deadly (that means folks died) attacks since 9/11 by those practitioners of "the religion of peace". Hundreds of thousands of innocents murdered for islam. And now you too can follow the death count in the comfort and safety of your own home or office with this handy death meter. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/LinktoTROP.htm
i like to keep score (and sorry for interupting) but i live 90 miles away from juarez mexico. pardon me if i am a little more concerned about the illegal drug and smuggling trade in my own (american) back yard, as opposed to the worldwide islamic condition. the numbers you post kinda pale in comparisson (per capita) compared to what is going on just south of the boarder.

i dont need your link, when i can just open up the local paper from the safety of my own home or office for a handy death-o-meter.

as a Christian American, there isnt much i could agree with karl marx about. but when it comes to the islamic murders being commited over religion, vs. the drug trade down south, the quote "religion is the opiate of the masses" sorta rings true.

maybe i will import (pardon the pun) the "official juarez death count tracker" thread from SF. what i find striking is what seems to be a popular belief that-

worldwide terrorism contributed to religion = bad
drug war related terrorism on our boarder town = swept under the rug and ignored

Craic
06-04-2010, 01:11 AM
worldwide terrorism contributed to religion = bad
drug war related terrorism on our boarder town = swept under the rug and ignored

I am not sure its quite that simple. Worldwide terrorism = bad. the latest installment, is religion. in the 60's through 80's, there was just as many Eastern Bloc Marxist terror groups-maybe even more.

I do agree though, that something MUST be done with what is happening in the border lands of Mexico. However, since we have been told that going into Iraq and Afghanistan was illegal and immoral, I guess doing anything in Mexico would be too. That leaves sealing up the borders, arresting, and deporting any illegal alien we find, and putting an end to any kind of cross-border cooperation. In short, It DOES seem like Arizona is doing something about it. Either that, or we can change our laws in response to the drug wars... but we've been told numerous times that changing our laws in response to terrorism is wrong and unamerican. SO I guess making drugs legal would fall into that same category.

tony hipchest
06-04-2010, 01:34 AM
Either that, or we can change our laws in response to the drug wars... but we've been told numerous times that changing our laws in response to terrorism is wrong and unamerican. SO I guess making drugs legal would fall into that same category.
i dont think so...

and that is where we will vehemently disagree in opinion.

if a person wants to put drugs into their own body, that is their choice, and the govt should not intervene.

if a person wants to take a foetus out of their own body, that is their choice and the govt should not intervene.


i feel the same when booze and tobacco are thrown into the mix or assisted suicide via dr. jack.

it should be one way or the other, not both.

im either for total allowance, or total non allowance. not the inconsistancies of both. (either way, although i prefer the total allowance route).

i know that wont be a popular belief or opinion here, but that is how i feel. that is what i believe.

"nuke em all, and let God sort em out"

Craic
06-04-2010, 02:06 AM
But Tony,

aren't we then changing the laws in response to terrorists... so that way, They win? Least that is what I have been told for about the last 8 years or so. Don't let them make us change any laws.

ricardisimo
06-04-2010, 03:33 AM
But Tony,

aren't we then changing the laws in response to terrorists... so that way, They win? Least that is what I have been told for about the last 8 years or so. Don't let them make us change any laws.

Huh? :confused:

I don't get it... if we are talking about the Drug War, who is "they" that would be "making us" do anything? Wouldn't we just assess the War on Drugs as a cost/benefit analysis and then keep it or lose (hopefully the latter) accordingly? How do "they" even factor into the equation... whoever they are? Would you have us keep a failing policy just because to discard it would be interpreted by someone as failure? Did we give in to the Mafia when we repealed Prohibition?

If you're talk about the War on Terror, or any of our foreign policies, the same would apply, wouldn't it? If we were to decide tomorrow that Helms-Burton is strengthening, rather than weakening the Castro regime, and that we should discard the law... is it "them" winning, or is it simply sanity? If we decided to take into account the well-researched and well-reasoned reports from our own highest military commanders (http://www.counterpunch.org/hijab04132010.html), telling us that our unquestioning support for Israel is putting American lives and interests at severe risk... are "they" winning when we change our policy, or are we?

If it means not losing thousands more American lives in the Middle East, I would think the answer would be obvious to you.

Oh, and by the way, Preacher: Tais-toi! Ferme la bouche!

SteelerEmpire
06-04-2010, 11:08 AM
New Aid Ship Heads To Gaza>> Israel Vows To Stop It (6/4/10)

By Friday afternoon, the ship was 150 miles (240 kilometers) from the coast of Gaza in international waters, the group said on its website. Irish Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead McGuire and the former head of the U.N. Oil-for-Food program in Iraq, Denis Halliday, were among the 11 passengers on board.

The Irish vessel is named after an American college student crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer while protesting house demolitions in Gaza.

Israel will not allow the aid ship to reach Gaza, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told senior Cabinet ministers late Thursday. According to a participant in the meeting, he said Israel made several offers to direct the ship to an Israeli port, where the aid supplies would be unloaded, inspected and transferred to Gaza by land, but the offers were rejected.

Netanyahu has hotly rejected calls to lift the blockade on Gaza, insisting that it prevents missile attacks on Israel. The Rachel Corrie's cargo of concrete is also a problem, because Israel considers that to have military uses.

Netanyahu has instructed the military to act with sensitivity in preventing the Rachel Corrie from landing and avoid harming those on board, the participant said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the meeting was closed.

Israel has rejected demands for an international panel to probe Monday's deadly commando raid on the aid ships, saying it can conduct a professional, impartial investigation on its own.

Activists say Israel sabotaged the previous aid flotilla, and Israeli defense officials said Friday only that unspecified "actions" were taken when the boats were still far from Gaza that delayed the flotilla. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the information was classified.

The Turkish activists' deaths on the aid ship increased tensions in the Mideast, especially with Turkey, an important ally of Israel. On Thursday, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan called Israel's actions "a historic mistake."

His deputy on Friday announced that Turkey was reducing its economic and defense cooperation with Israel. Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said all deals with Israel are being evaluated.

"We are serious on this issue. New cooperation will not start and relations with Israel will be reduced," he said.

Israel says its commandos opened fire Monday as a last resort after they were attacked, and released a video showing soldiers in riot gear descending from a helicopter into a crowd of men with clubs. Three or four activists overpowered each soldier as he landed.

Returning activists admitted fighting with the Israeli commandos but insisted their actions were in self defense because the ships were being boarded in international waters by a military force.

In Istanbul on Friday, 20,000 people waved Turkish, Palestinian and Hezbollah flags in a memorial service outside the Beyazit mosque for a member of the IHH charity group who the activists say was killed while taking pictures of the Israeli commando raid.

The youngest of the nine activists killed, 19-year-old Furkan Dogan, was being buried Friday in his family's hometown in Kayseri in central Turkey. Another 10,000 people attended the funeral service for Dogan ahead of his burial, chanting "down with Israel," but Dogan's father, Ahmet Dogan, was stoic.

"Neither I nor his mother or brother have any grief," he told the AP as he arranged flowers on his son's coffin before prayers started. "We believe he became a martyr and God accepts martyrs to paradise."

Dogan, who was born in Troy, New York, moved to Turkey when he was two. The other eight slain activists were all Turkish nationals.

In Istanbul, three members of an anti-Zionist Jewish sect called a news conference to blast Israel's actions.

"We are totally opposed and condemn this atrocity that has been perpetrated against Turkey, against the ships of the human rights activists," Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, a leader of the radical Neturei Karta, told reporters.

"We all pray for the speedy and peaceful total dismantlement of the state of Israel and for a free Gaza ... so we can live together — Jews, Muslims and Christians."

Vincent
06-04-2010, 11:57 AM
i like to keep score (and sorry for interupting) but i live 90 miles away from juarez mexico. pardon me if i am a little more concerned about the illegal drug and smuggling trade in my own (american) back yard, as opposed to the worldwide islamic condition. the numbers you post kinda pale in comparisson (per capita) compared to what is going on just south of the boarder.

i dont need your link, when i can just open up the local paper from the safety of my own home or office for a handy death-o-meter.

as a Christian American, there isnt much i could agree with karl marx about. but when it comes to the islamic murders being commited over religion, vs. the drug trade down south, the quote "religion is the opiate of the masses" sorta rings true.

maybe i will import (pardon the pun) the "official juarez death count tracker" thread from SF. what i find striking is what seems to be a popular belief that-

worldwide terrorism contributed to religion = bad
drug war related terrorism on our boarder town = swept under the rug and ignored

Context Tony. Context.

That post was directed at the assertion that the Israelis are committing some sort of holocaust against the palestinians. The numbers of islamic acts outweigh palestinian "casualties" by orders of magnitude.

As for the carnage in Mexico, why wouldn't you post the details? Certainly nobody here wants such barbarity swept under any rug.

Vincent
06-04-2010, 12:01 PM
And we're restricting this discussion to their terrorism against us, correct?

Certainly not. All terrorism. Sponsored by all parties. Let the chips fall...

I hear the rustling of web pages. Searching, searching, searching. "Aha, here it is! 'Americans commit...'".

In the last analysis, we mortals comment. God judges.

The Patriot
06-04-2010, 02:17 PM
"Israel attacks". Have you read a word in this thread?

Guilty as charged. I have no empathy for terrorists or anyone that supports them. I have a great deal of empathy for their victims and the poor individuals that have to weather their temper tantrums.

They too failed to adapt. Sad, but how do those cultures survive in the evolution of America?

Patriot, why do IDF tanks roll? Boredom? Errands? Random target practice? They are provoked by bad behavior. The :rofl2: "aid flotilla" :rofl2: is but another sordid example of the behavior.

Okay, Vinny. I doubt either of us would really care to talk about what is fundamentally wrong (and extremely naive) with labeling an entire demographic of people as "terrorists" and criticizing them for living in an underdeveloped country when you've already called bringing in a boatload of cement and building supplies "funding terrorism", so let's just agree to disagree on this one. :drink:

Killer
06-04-2010, 03:26 PM
But you'd have to agree Kennedy's blockade of Cuba is the same as the Israellites blocking Hamas. Preventing shipments of arms to be used to threaten the homeland.


No wonder Barry is backing the dade county jews on this one. I'll give him credit for that. He can count votes, that's his ballgame.

The Patriot
06-04-2010, 03:45 PM
But you'd have to agree Kennedy's blockade of Cuba is the same as the Israellites blocking Hamas. Preventing shipments of arms to be used to threaten the homeland.


No wonder Barry is backing the dade county jews on this one. I'll give him credit for that. He can count votes, that's his ballgame.

Yes, there are plenty of actual terrorists who would love to arm Gaza with weapons to destroy Israel, but Israel's excuse that the bags of cement were going to be used to make bunkers is a bit of a stretch. Let's be realistic, this raid made Israel look bad, and if there were any real weapons on board, Israel would have made sure the world saw them. Instead, all we have are pictures of steak knives and metal rods.

Somebody dropped the ball on this one, and Israel needs to take responsibility before a conflict escalates with Turkey.

Killer
06-04-2010, 04:13 PM
The arabs have been fighting the jews for 2000 years. If it isn't one thing, it's another, I say there must be something in the sand there that makes them all thirsty for blood - visions of too many sky gods, most likely.

ricardisimo
06-04-2010, 05:22 PM
The arabs have been fighting the jews for 2000 years. If it isn't one thing, it's another, I say there must be something in the sand there that makes them all thirsty for blood - visions of too many sky gods, most likely.

No, they haven't. Look it up before you make a comment like that. Christians and Jews have been "fighting" for 2000 years - if by "fighting" you mean one side constantly trying to annihilate the other (and almost succeeding on several occasions). Relations between Islam and Judaism were notably amicable up until the Balfour Declaration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917), and of course it all went to pot in 1948.

Killer
06-04-2010, 05:30 PM
Jews Christians Muslims - it don't matter, they are all the same religion full of vengeful gods full of death and destruction since the biblical times.

Blow it all up and start over, I say.

that's what they want anyway


...over here we'll worship the mighty microchip and will prevail over all the heathens

ricardisimo
06-04-2010, 05:43 PM
Jews Christians Muslims - it don't matter, they are all the same religion full of vengeful gods full of death and destruction since the biblical times.

Blow it all up and start over, I say.

that's what they want anyway


...over here we'll worship the mighty microchip and will prevail over all the heathens

I'm in agreement with an embarrassing amount of what you just wrote.

The Patriot
06-04-2010, 05:58 PM
It will blow over eventually. Remember how bad Ireland was?

A lot of this is just fallout from the Cold War.

Killer
06-04-2010, 05:58 PM
I'm in agreement with an embarrassing amount of what you just wrote.

follow me young grasshopper, you have much to learn

Vincent
06-04-2010, 06:06 PM
Yes, there are plenty of actual terrorists who would love to arm Gaza with weapons to destroy Israel, but Israel's excuse that the bags of cement were going to be used to make bunkers is a bit of a stretch. Let's be realistic, this raid made Israel look bad, and if there were any real weapons on board, Israel would have made sure the world saw them. Instead, all we have are pictures of steak knives and metal rods.

There's a blockade around Gaza because... A group of boats loaded with folks that hate Israel are headed for Gaza. The Israelis know this. And they're just supposed to let them steam by? Seriously?

Of course this episode made Israel look bad. It was designed from the ground up to make Israel look bad. It was designed to provoke. It is intifada.


Somebody dropped the ball on this one, and Israel needs to take responsibility before a conflict escalates with Turkey.

When terrorists lob rockets and shells into Israel, or blow up a bus, or shoot up a cafe, does anybody "take responsibility"? No, I don't mean "issue a 'communiqué' claiming responsibility for our heroic attack on that Zionist nursery school". I mean actually take responsibility. Like adults do.

Interesting that you say it could escalate with Turkey. That would make Turkey a state sponsor of terrorism.

Vincent
06-04-2010, 06:29 PM
No, they haven't. Look it up before you make a comment like that.

Ric, the arabs hate the Jews because of Isaac and Ishmael. Ask them. Its been going on for thousands of years.


Christians and Jews have been "fighting" for 2000 years

OK. I'll bite. Details.


if by "fighting" you mean one side constantly trying to annihilate the other (and almost succeeding on several occasions).

If the arabs would put down their weapons, there'd be no war. If the Israelis put down theirs, there'd be no Israel.


Relations between Islam and Judaism were notably amicable up until the Balfour Declaration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917), and of course it all went to pot in 1948.

:rofl2: Apparently the muslims didn't receive that memo. :rofl2:

"Remember Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!"

The chant is used at rallies for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Khaibar is the name of the last Jewish village defeated by Islam's prophet Muhammad in AD 628. The battle marked the end of the Jewish presence in Arabia.

Killer
06-04-2010, 06:38 PM
perhaps I better say it again


Jews Christians Muslims - it don't matter, they are all the same religion full of vengeful gods full of death and destruction since the biblical times.

Blow it all up and start over, I say.

that's what they want anyway

The Patriot
06-04-2010, 07:11 PM
There's a blockade around Gaza because... A group of boats loaded with folks that hate Israel are headed for Gaza. The Israelis know this. And they're just supposed to let them steam by? Seriously?

Of course this episode made Israel look bad. It was designed from the ground up to make Israel look bad. It was designed to provoke. It is intifada.



When terrorists lob rockets and shells into Israel, or blow up a bus, or shoot up a cafe, does anybody "take responsibility"? No, I don't mean "issue a 'communiqué' claiming responsibility for our heroic attack on that Zionist nursery school". I mean actually take responsibility. Like adults do.

Interesting that you say it could escalate with Turkey. That would make Turkey a state sponsor of terrorism.

:lol:

Well, regardless of what you want to call them. There are several Turkish "terrorist" war cruisers with some terrorist supplies headed toward Gaza as we speak, and the Israeli prime minister has vowed not to let them reach the shore.

Personally, I don't care whose side your on, this is a stupid reason to go to war.

SteelerEmpire
06-04-2010, 11:11 PM
Gaza bound aid vessel tailed by Israeli warships... LINK: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100605/ap_on_re_us/gaza_blockade

SteelersinCA
06-05-2010, 11:01 AM
I think anyone who thinks that a parcel of land opens the gates of the afterlife to them is a moron. Move somewhere nice, it's a freaking desert over there!!!

Killer
06-07-2010, 11:18 AM
I can see why all you sinners are afraid of the wrath of Jehovah - he is an angry god and will spite all you heathens.

Repent now!

ricardisimo
06-07-2010, 09:41 PM
rofl

ricardisimo
06-08-2010, 01:54 AM
Ric, the arabs hate the Jews because of Isaac and Ishmael. Ask them. Its been going on for thousands of years.

No, it hasn't. For the vast majority of the time that Jews and Muslims have been living on the same planet, they have been like chocolate and peanut butter... two great tastes that taste great together (although I personally think they're all wackos).

Ask them myself? Well, I didn't ask, but here's the sort of wacko answer (http://americansagainsthate.org/ICBR3-10-00.htm) you get, and it doesn't mention Isaac or Ishmael. It's all religious nonsense, of course, because it's really about competing personal, legal, economic and historical claims to a chunk of land, with religious claims stuck in there so as somehow to ennoble the entire crude affair.

Let's also not forget US interests in the region, and how that is fueling this.


OK. I'll bite. Details.

Really? OK... How about massacres in Germany during the First Crusade, in France during the Second Crusade, and also at Amiens, Bourges and Montclus; Strasbourg during the Black Death; and of course the Inquisition in Spain and beyond; Tsarist pogroms in Russia; and then there was a little spat dubbed the Holocaust, in case you had forgotten it. I'm sure I can find hundreds or even thousands of similar events if I had the inclination, but I hope you get the idea.


If the arabs would put down their weapons, there'd be no war. If the Israelis put down theirs, there'd be no Israel.

Let's look and see what the situation was like before the Palestinians took up arms, before the Intifadas. That should give us a good idea of what the situation would look like if they were to lay down their arms again, don't you think? Well... hmmm... doesn't look too good for the Palestinians, what with the "Iron Fist" of the Israelis.


:rofl2: Apparently the muslims didn't receive that memo. :rofl2:

"Remember Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!"

The chant is used at rallies for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Khaibar is the name of the last Jewish village defeated by Islam's prophet Muhammad in AD 628. The battle marked the end of the Jewish presence in Arabia.

You've got to be kidding me... It's not a chant that is used anywhere, except by some Balinese kook at his own trial. Read up on the actual battle, and see what it entailed... nothing happened. It certainly didn't mark "the end of the Jewish presence in Arabia," as you put it. The Jews of Khaybar stayed right where they were and started paying tribute to Mohammad. Google "Remember Khaybar" (or 'Khaibar' as you spell it)... Facebook is the first link that pops up (how sad is that?) and then thirty of forty Zionist sites. It's a propaganda piece at best, and a badly done bit of agitprop at that.

Now go to the library and research the Arab-Israeli conflict. You won't find squat before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. There's a reason for that: nothing happened. Anyone can talk about Isaac and Ishmael, but if there's no history of actual conflict for 1200 or 1300 years, then... what? If you have to use the Battle of Khaybar as proof of their antipathy, then I don't know what to tell you. Everyone should have so peaceable a history with their neighbors. 1300 years of coexistence with one bit of sabre-rattling stuck in there. Puh-lease.

The WH
06-08-2010, 05:43 AM
Howsabout we evacuate everyone from the holy land and destroy it. Completely. If two kids won't stop fighting over the same toy, you take the toy from them.

ricardisimo
06-08-2010, 11:08 AM
Howsabout we evacuate everyone from the holy land and destroy it. Completely. If two kids won't stop fighting over the same toy, you take the toy from them.

:hmm:

:decision: