Steelers Continue Contract Extension Negotiations With Mike Wallace

[86WARD]

NFL Network reporter Jason LaCanfora is reporting Saturday the Steelers and WR Mike Wallace have begun discussions surrounding a contract extension for Wallace. LaCanfora noted, though, "odds of a deal appear slim," and the Steelers do not negotiate contracts during the season.

Also in the report, which hasn't been previously reported, is Wallace is seeking $11 million this season, something the Steelers don't appear to be inclined to give him. We've mentioned prior to this a general range of the kind of contract Wallace could be looking for, based on other extensions and new deals given to wide receivers in the NFL.

Wallace skipped the team's entire offseason program, including all of its preseason games and didn't sign his one-year contract offer from the Steelers until Aug. 28.

Source: SBNation.com (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/9/1/3285644/steelers-mike-wallace-contract-negotiations-continue-long-term-deal-extension)

[polamalubeast]

From all indications, Wallace wants a contract like the five-year, $55.5 million deal that Vincent Jackson got from the Buccaneers, and he’s not willing to settle for less than that. La Canfora reports that the Steelers would be willing to go to five years and $50 million, with $25 million guaranteed, but Wallace is fixated on making $11 million a year.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/01/report-steelers-and-mike-wallace-negotiating-but-a-deal-is-unlikely/

[86WARD]

And he should make what Jackson is making...the catch is that Jackson shouldn't be getting paid like that. Exactly what I said would happen. The Jackson deal (and Garcon deal) screwed up the whole WR spectrum...neither are worth what they got paid. Talent-wise, the Steelers would be getting a bargain for Wallace at 5-years/$55M, cause based on the "scale" we have now, Wallace is worth more than Jackson...the Steelers need to just buck up and give him the extra million...in the big scheme, it's totally worth it for a player of his caliber.

The Steelers seem happy to keep him for the 2-years $13M for now and negotiate an extension later or let him walk...they don't seem in a rush to get a deal done with him.

[polamalubeast]

The steelers not want to make mistakes that a teams of 4-12 do ..

If Wallace had a big injury,he going to regret to not sign a contract of 25 million guaranteed

the steelers need to not panic in this situation, especially since they can put the TAG on Wallace in 2013

[SMR]

The steelers not want to make mistakes that a teams of 4-12 do ..

If Wallace had a big injury,he going to regret to not sign a contract of 25 million guaranteed

the steelers need to not panic in this situation, especially since they can put the TAG on Wallace in 2013

Agree

[ALLD]

The Steelers can do what the Pats did to Wes Welker and make him play to earn. If his productivity slips or he is injured that is the risk he takes.

[steelreserve]

And he should make what Jackson is making...the catch is that Jackson shouldn't be getting paid like that. Exactly what I said would happen. The Jackson deal (and Garcon deal) screwed up the whole WR spectrum...neither are worth what they got paid. Talent-wise, the Steelers would be getting a bargain for Wallace at 5-years/$55M, cause based on the "scale" we have now, Wallace is worth more than Jackson...the Steelers need to just buck up and give him the extra million...in the big scheme, it's totally worth it for a player of his caliber.

The Steelers seem happy to keep him for the 2-years $13M for now and negotiate an extension later or let him walk...they don't seem in a rush to get a deal done with him.

No, the Steelers would not be getting a "bargain" at $11M a year. We'd be getting an ok deal, if even that. The fact that someone else squandered their money doesn't fundamentally affect whether it's worth it to pay that much in our own situation for what we would get.

$11M a year is a lot to live up to, and quite frankly, I'm worried we're getting topheavy with eight-figure salaries. By my count, we've got Ben, Troy, Harrison, Timmons, Woodley and now Brown making close to $10M already; add Wallace in there and that's 7 guys. I believe Miller is costing us something like $7M also. I know a couple of those guys restructured their contracts to be cap-friendly, but it's not like that money just goes away; we still have to pay it someday. I also do not believe Wallace should be the highest-paid player on the team, or the second-highest after Ben depending on whether we're talking about real dollars or salary cap dollars.

[86WARD]

Actually they would. Is it a fair market? No. It's unfortunately the cost of doing business. Both the Buccaneers and Redskins overpaid for their free agent WRs. As a result, they raised the market value of good WRs. Jackson is the one we need to be more concerned about and he isn't worth the coin he's getting paid. Wallace is a better, much better, player than Jackson and if he continues on pace with his success and leaves, he'll make even more than he's asking. You're not going to get Wallace for $6-7M, the amount some people think he's worth. He's worth $11M now. If the Steelers would've extended him before Jackson was signed, maybe they would've had him MUCH cheaper...but they waited.

[steelreserve]

His market value may be $11M a year, but that's entirely different from being WORTH $11M.

No, I'm not holding on to some delusion that we'll get him for $6 or $7 million. He'll get $11M somewhere, and I'm saying that for that price, it's not worth it. We should franchise him and then sign-and-trade him unless he really demonstrates that he's a legitimate top-5 WR this season, which would mean continuing to improve considerably.

Fact is, WRs are replaceable, even good ones - the difference between a top-5 WR and a merely above-average WR makes nowhere near the impact as it would at most other positions. Outside of Megatron and Fitzgerald, I don't think there are any WRs you could argue are "irreplaceable." We've not been shy about parting ways with talented WRs in the past when it got to be too much, and we've been excellent at finding new ones. If they get stuck on money, I don't see this being any different. Frankly, I think it would be a huge mistake to spend $20-$25M a year on the receiving corps, which is where we'd be headed if we plan on keeping all three of our top guys past this year. Mark my words, it'll be Brown, then Wallace OR Sanders, and a rookie.

[Steeldude]

His market value may be $11M a year, but that's entirely different from being WORTH $11M.



Quit making sense

[Steeldude]

I thought Wallace wasn't asking for $11,000,000...lol.? Let him play out the season and then let him walk. IMO, I don't think he is going to have a big year.

[smokin3000gt]

Personally if it were my team and I was trying to get a deal done with Wallace at fair value ($10m/year? c'mon that's more then fair IMO) and he took the "I'm not signing that, it's business" approach, I would take the same business approach and not pay him a dime more ($275k/year) then I had to since he refused to sign the tender. Then trade him for some draft picks at the end of the year. Hey, it's just business.

[Steeldude]

Personally if it were my team and I was trying to get a deal done with Wallace at fair value ($10m/year? c'mon that's more then fair IMO) and he took the "I'm not signing that, it's business" approach, I would take the same business approach and not pay him a dime more ($275k/year) then I had to since he refused to sign the tender. Then trade him for some draft picks at the end of the year. Hey, it's just business.

He is a UFA at the end of the season.

[Count Steeler]

He is a UFA at the end of the season.

The Steelers still have some options if they want to keep him. If an extension doesn't get done in the next week, let's see how he plays. If he is just going through the motions, then trade him or let him walk. I think we get a third rounder if he walks.

Maybe another touch of the Lombardi may change his mind.

[86WARD]

His market value may be $11M a year, but that's entirely different from being WORTH $11M.



I won't argue with you there. If the Steelers are serious about keeping him, that's unfortunately close to what they'll have to "pay" in contract terms. Obviously it's not all guaranteed and maybe not even attainable monies but that's the ballpark the "terms" need to be in.

They have him now on a 2-year, $12-$13M deal...which is a great deal for a player of his caliber.

You can make the argument that Brown is a better receiver, but he's really not. Wallace is the #1 talent in the team.

[ALLD]

I won't argue with you there. If the Steelers are serious about keeping him, that's unfortunately close to what they'll have to "pay" in contract terms. Obviously it's not all guaranteed and maybe not even attainable monies but that's the ballpark the "terms" need to be in.

They have him now on a 2-year, $12-$13M deal...which is a great deal for a player of his caliber.

You can make the argument that Brown is a better receiver, but he's really not. Wallace is the #1 talent in the team.

Then why was Brown the MVP last year? #1 talent has to show up and play in order to really claim the #1 title too. In addition, the free market has been tested with Wallace and nobody made him an offer. If he was Fitz or Johnson good, then there would have been a line of offers regardless of the $ or compensatory draft picks. Wallace has elite speed, but does not take over a game like the previously mentioned WRs or even AB.

[zulater]

I won't argue with you there. If the Steelers are serious about keeping him, that's unfortunately close to what they'll have to "pay" in contract terms. Obviously it's not all guaranteed and maybe not even attainable monies but that's the ballpark the "terms" need to be in.

They have him now on a 2-year, $12-$13M deal...which is a great deal for a player of his caliber.

You can make the argument that Brown is a better receiver, but he's really not. Wallace is the #1 talent in the team.

Actually that remains to be seen. Brown has a better work ethic, better hands, runs better routes, catches the ball better in traffic, and is a better open field runner after the catch.

Personally I think Brown is like a younger Hines Ward with more speed. But obviously a less tenacious blocker. As was proven time and again with Hines, the complete package will always resonate stronger with the Steeler brass than the individual talented diva, who puts self interest over that of the team. Do you think for a second the Steelers regretted keeping Ward over Burress, or letting Holmes go when his selfishness became evident?

If Wallace wants to stay a Steeler he needs to learn to compromise and leave a few bucks on the bargaining table. If not they'll get what they can out of him and let him go when it's time, and be better off for it.

[steeldawg]

His market value may be $11M a year, but that's entirely different from being WORTH $11M.

No, I'm not holding on to some delusion that we'll get him for $6 or $7 million. He'll get $11M somewhere, and I'm saying that for that price, it's not worth it. We should franchise him and then sign-and-trade him unless he really demonstrates that he's a legitimate top-5 WR this season, which would mean continuing to improve considerably.

Fact is, WRs are replaceable, even good ones - the difference between a top-5 WR and a merely above-average WR makes nowhere near the impact as it would at most other positions. Outside of Megatron and Fitzgerald, I don't think there are any WRs you could argue are "irreplaceable." We've not been shy about parting ways with talented WRs in the past when it got to be too much, and we've been excellent at finding new ones. If they get stuck on money, I don't see this being any different. Frankly, I think it would be a huge mistake to spend $20-$25M a year on the receiving corps, which is where we'd be headed if we plan on keeping all three of our top guys past this year. Mark my words, it'll be Brown, then Wallace OR Sanders, and a rookie.

Its not a mistake to spend 20-25 million on a recieving corp when you are paying your quarterback 100million dollars. Its much easier to get stingy at the running back position as running backs come a dime a dozen. I think letting your number 1 wideout walk for 11 million when you just gave your #2 8 million after scoring 2 tds last season is ridiculous.

[steeldawg]

Then why was Brown the MVP last year? #1 talent has to show up and play in order to really claim the #1 title too. In addition, the free market has been tested with Wallace and nobody made him an offer. If he was Fitz or Johnson good, then there would have been a line of offers regardless of the $ or compensatory draft picks. Wallace has elite speed, but does not take over a game like the previously mentioned WRs or even AB.

Brown was mvp because wallace was drawing the double teams leaving brown open to run free, and wallace still put up better numbers.

[zulater]

Brown was mvp because wallace was drawing the double teams leaving brown open to run free, and wallace still put up better numbers.

That's so over-hyped. Did Hines Ward stop being effective when Burress left? Antonio Brown was the Steelers best player in preseason with Wallace sitting down in Florida. The reason Brown overtook Wallace as the Steelers best receiver is because Brown works harder and has gained Ben's trust to a greater degree. Ben knows Antonio will work to the whistle to get open , and will catch the ball in traffic without complaint.

And don't forget Brown had to work his way up the ranks from being a 6th round draft pick from a nothing college. He wasn't even starting for the Steelers until late in the season.

[steeldawg]

That's so over-hyped. Did Hines Ward stop being effective when Burress left? Antonio Brown was the Steelers best player in preseason with Wallace sitting down in Florida. The reason Brown overtook Wallace as the Steelers best receiver is because Brown works harder and has gained Ben's trust to a greater degree. Ben knows Antonio will work to the whistle to get open , and will catch the ball in traffic without complaint.

And don't forget Brown had to work his way up the ranks from being a 6th round draft pick from a nothing college. He wasn't even starting for the Steelers until late in the season.

This is simply not true, Brown never overtook wallace thats why as soon as wallace came back brown went back to #2. Brown works harder where is the proof of this i never heard of this? Last I heard wallace was working with shaw one of the top trainers for nfl players. Ben wants wallace out there and has even said that the offense needs him. Brown has been way over hyped as this incredible receiver, what has he really done? I have never seen wallace quit on a play or not work for the ball he caught 70 passes last year, was he wide open on every pass?

[Count Steeler]

This is simply not true, Brown never overtook wallace thats why as soon as wallace came back brown went back to #2. Brown works harder where is the proof of this i never heard of this? Last I heard wallace was working with shaw one of the top trainers for nfl players. Ben wants wallace out there and has even said that the offense needs him. Brown has been way over hyped as this incredible receiver, what has he really done? I have never seen wallace quit on a play or not work for the ball he caught 70 passes last year, was he wide open on every pass?

Hey, let's not go overboard here. Name the 1 player that has had over 1000 yds in returns and 1000 yds receiving? That is no easy feat. Brown has had to work harder because he was a 6th round draft choice. Don't forget, the only reason he got to play 3 seasons ago was that Sanders got injured. Brown made the team but he was not utilized as a receiver.

The difference is that Wallace comes, now, with the reputation of being the deep threat. Give Sanders and Brown 5 or 6 games together and let's see if defenses start double covering the deep threat. Also, Wallace had a significant drop off in the last 5/6 games last year. Brown continued to improve and impress.

[fansince'76]

Brown has been way over hyped as this incredible receiver, what has he really done?

See the 3rd-and-19 catch against the Ravens and the game-icing catch against the Jets in the playoffs 2 years ago, for starters. When has Wallace ever shown up in a postseason game?

[steeldawg]

Hey, let's not go overboard here. Name the 1 player that has had over 1000 yds in returns and 1000 yds receiving? That is no easy feat. Brown has had to work harder because he was a 6th round draft choice. Don't forget, the only reason he got to play 3 seasons ago was that Sanders got injured. Brown made the team but he was not utilized as a receiver.

The difference is that Wallace comes, now, with the reputation of being the deep threat. Give Sanders and Brown 5 or 6 games together and let's see if defenses start double covering the deep threat. Also, Wallace had a significant drop off in the last 5/6 games last year. Brown continued to improve and impress.

How can you say that when the stats for the 2 are the same for last season except wallace caught 6 more tds than brown. So if wallace s dropped off so much in the last 5 or 6 games and still posted better or equal numbers than brown at the end of the season what does that really say about browns season?

[steeldawg]

See the 3rd-and-19 catch against the Ravens and the game-icing catch against the Jets in the playoffs 2 years ago, for starters. When has Wallace ever shown up in a postseason game?

Td in denver last seaon and td in superbowl vs green bay.......Brown never scored a td in post seaon.......Did he make a great catch sure but what did he do in the superbowl oh ya 1 catch for 1 yard. You have to look at the body of work and wallaces is better.

[steeldawg]

See the 3rd-and-19 catch against the Ravens and the game-icing catch against the Jets in the playoffs 2 years ago, for starters. When has Wallace ever shown up in a postseason game?

Ever heard of a guy named david tyree?? how did things turn out for him?

[steelreserve]

Its not a mistake to spend 20-25 million on a recieving corp when you are paying your quarterback 100million dollars. Its much easier to get stingy at the running back position as running backs come a dime a dozen. I think letting your number 1 wideout walk for 11 million when you just gave your #2 8 million after scoring 2 tds last season is ridiculous.

So you're OK with letting go of Hood and Pouncey, then? Or with dumping Harrison or Ike Taylor at the end of this year and not replacing him ever, just having a low-round rookie play the position for the next 5 years? Because that's the kind of decision you'd be making.

One of the good things about having a top QB is that he makes receivers better. Honestly, I think Brown is an above-average receiver and Wallace is a very good receiver, but they both punch a class above their weight. Chances are if we plugged in a new rookie from rounds 1-3, or a veteran in the $5M range, we'd hardly miss a beat. We've rarely "missed" on WRs since Ben has been here, Sweed being the main exception, and largely because he was rarely healthy enough to see the field. Meanwhile, take a guy like Michael Crabtree, who I'd say has skills comparable to Wallace if not better, and look at how he's doing with Alex Smith as his QB.

As for everyone arguing over one of Wallace or Brown being "better" than the other, I think that's a silly comparison. It's like comparing Ward to Burress, or Taylor to Hampton for that matter. Two guys with completely different styles who are valuable for completely different reasons. The way it looks right now though, is that if things keep up the way they're going, Wallace's high demands are going to run him out of town.

[zulater]

Td in denver last seaon and td in superbowl vs green bay.......Brown never scored a td in post seaon.......Did he make a great catch sure but what did he do in the superbowl oh ya 1 catch for 1 yard. You have to look at the body of work and wallaces is better.


Are you kidding me? :lol: That's as stupid a comparison as I've ever heard of. :doh: That'd be like comparing Wallace to Santonio Holmes in 2009. Brown was the Steelers 5th receiver in 2010, worked himself up to 4 by the playoffs. But coming to the team as a 6th round pick in 2009 he wasn't really given much chance to make an early impact.

Your whole premise on Brown is completely flawed. Brown wasn't on the field for at least 1/3 of the snaps in the beginning of last season, so of course his overall numbers wouldn't be as good as Wallace's.

Tell you what, I'll make you an avater bet that Brown is more productive this year than Wallace. Deal?

[zulater]

Ever heard of a guy named david tyree?? how did things turn out for him?

Yeah we heard of him, and he never did a thing before. Brown on the other hand in limited offensive snaps had a 1000 yard season in his 2nd NFL year!

Seriously Dawg, do you think before you type?

Look, no one is condemning Wallace. We know he's a good receiver, potentially maybe even great. But he's not there yet, and the Steelers have been reasonable in their contract talks with him.

The Steelers will obviously be better with him back. But if he leaves after this season, life goes on. Just as the Steelers flourished after the departures of Burress and Holmes, they will prosper if Wallace goes on to another team.

[steel striker]

I still think the steelers are a better team with both Brown & Wallace on it. We saw last year what Brown can do and, that is a complete WR. I think most steeler fans would still like to Wallce here for a few more years. Plus if Sanders can stay healthy we have a pretty dangerous wr's in the passing game. Brown has also showed he is not afraid of the big moment clutch plays like FS76 mentioned. It think brown is still more of the complete wr maybe I'm wrong. I hope Wallace proves me wrong this season.

[ALLD]

Brown was mvp because wallace was drawing the double teams leaving brown open to run free, and wallace still put up better numbers.

AB was the first player in NFL history to gain 1,000 return yards and 1,000 receiving yards in one season. How can you do better than that?

[polamalubeast]

with or without Wallace,Antonio is a beast

[steeldawg]

Are you kidding me? :lol: That's as stupid a comparison as I've ever heard of. :doh: That'd be like comparing Wallace to Santonio Holmes in 2009. Brown was the Steelers 5th receiver in 2010, worked himself up to 4 by the playoffs. But coming to the team as a 6th round pick in 2009 he wasn't really given much chance to make an early impact.

Your whole premise on Brown is completely flawed. Brown wasn't on the field for at least 1/3 of the snaps in the beginning of last season, so of course his overall numbers wouldn't be as good as Wallace's.

Tell you what, I'll make you an avater bet that Brown is more productive this year than Wallace. Deal?

You should read the whole arguement!! he made the comparison that brown made the catch on 3rd and 19 when was the last time wallace showed up in the post season. So i simply posted that wallace has scored in big games.

[steeldawg]

Yeah we heard of him, and he never did a thing before. Brown on the other hand in limited offensive snaps had a 1000 yard season in his 2nd NFL year!

Seriously Dawg, do you think before you type?

Look, no one is condemning Wallace. We know he's a good receiver, potentially maybe even great. But he's not there yet, and the Steelers have been reasonable in their contract talks with him.

The Steelers will obviously be better with him back. But if he leaves after this season, life goes on. Just as the Steelers flourished after the departures of Burress and Holmes, they will prosper if Wallace goes on to another team.

When i ask the question what has brown really done career wise? And the answer i get is the 3rd and 19 catch, point made. Its one catch it doesnt make him more of a gamer than wallace.

[steeldawg]

Are you kidding me? :lol: That's as stupid a comparison as I've ever heard of. :doh: That'd be like comparing Wallace to Santonio Holmes in 2009. Brown was the Steelers 5th receiver in 2010, worked himself up to 4 by the playoffs. But coming to the team as a 6th round pick in 2009 he wasn't really given much chance to make an early impact.

Your whole premise on Brown is completely flawed. Brown wasn't on the field for at least 1/3 of the snaps in the beginning of last season, so of course his overall numbers wouldn't be as good as Wallace's.

Tell you what, I'll make you an avater bet that Brown is more productive this year than Wallace. Deal?

I never said brown was flawed, and yes his numbers are not as good as wallace so how can you make the arguement that hes a better receiver.

[Craic]

Chances are if we plugged in a new rookie from rounds 1-3, or a veteran in the $5M range, we'd hardly miss a beat. We've rarely "missed" on WRs since Ben has been here.

I'm not so sure of that SR.

1. Limas Sweed, second round (you listed him also).

2. Willie Reid, 3rd Round.

3. Fred Gibson 4th round.

4. Santonio Holmes is a 50/50. Good skills, bad player due to off field issues that affected him on the field.

That leaves

1. Mike Wallace

2. Emmanuel Sanders (who has yet to fully prove himself, mainly due to his injury last year).


So, at most, if you move Santo to the lower list, and give Sanders the benefit of the doubt that he can have a very good season without injury, the Steelers are 50/50 in the first four rounds. I wouldn't call that "rarely." Matter of fact, it looks like we've missed in each round except the first, and maybe then depending on what you do with Holmes. We hit paydirt without question in nothing higher than the third round.

[polamalubeast]

I'm not so sure of that SR.

1. Limas Sweed, second round (you listed him also).

2. Willie Reid, 3rd Round.

3. Fred Gibson 4th round.

4. Santonio Holmes is a 50/50. Good skills, bad player due to off field issues that affected him on the field.

That leaves

1. Mike Wallace

2. Emmanuel Sanders (who has yet to fully prove himself, mainly due to his injury last year).


So, at most, if you move Santo to the lower list, and give Sanders the benefit of the doubt that he can have a very good season without injury, the Steelers are 50/50 in the first four rounds. I wouldn't call that "rarely." Matter of fact, it looks like we've missed in each round except the first, and maybe then depending on what you do with Holmes. We hit paydirt without question in nothing higher than the third round.

Holmes was a success

He is a very talented player and he helped the Steelers to win the Super Bowl in 2008, and Holmes has had 1250 yards in 2009

On the field, Holmes was very good with the steelers...Off the field,this is a another story,but on the field,he was very good and he was a great clutch player with the steelers

[Craic]

I never said brown was flawed, and yes his numbers are not as good as wallace so how can you make the arguement that hes a better receiver.

While I personally wouldn't say that, it is definitely possible to argue the point.

1. Brown is not sent on many fly routes. Hence, his total yards, YPC, and TD production simply will not be the same as Wallace.

2. Brown has only played in half the games as Wallace, and wasn't a starter in most of those, so he has far less opportunity.

3. Last year, Brown had a higher overall Yards per touch than Wallace - was actually first in the NFL last year.

4. Brown is more versatile, able to drop back to take the punts and kickoffs, much more like Santonio, but without the bong.

5. Brown has shown the fearlessness that it takes to go over the middle. We just don't know much about Wallace's ability to do that time after time (though that's due to the coaches, rather than Wallace).

In short, I think a person can definitely argue that Brown is a better receiver for a team for all of these reasons. I, however, would argue that the two are incomparable because they occupy to very different roles on the team. Going back a decade, Wallace is taking Paxico's spot in being a deep threat/forcing the team to focus on him. Brown is taking Ward's spot, forcing teams to be very careful for the underneath stuff that chews up clock, turf, and keeps drives moving. You need both on a team.

The other problem however, is that you need a good line on both sides of the ball, a good qb, a good set of CB's and safeties, etc. So you can't really overextend yourself on one player. Personally, I say offer Wallace a little over what Brown is getting. He's a year older, and his role is somewhat difficult to fill (speed and hands). But not much more than any other spot in today's NFL.

[steeldawg]

While I personally wouldn't say that, it is definitely possible to argue the point.

1. Brown is not sent on many fly routes. Hence, his total yards, YPC, and TD production simply will not be the same as Wallace.

2. Brown has only played in half the games as Wallace, and wasn't a starter in most of those, so he has far less opportunity.

3. Last year, Brown had a higher overall Yards per touch than Wallace - was actually first in the NFL last year.

4. Brown is more versatile, able to drop back to take the punts and kickoffs, much more like Santonio, but without the bong.

5. Brown has shown the fearlessness that it takes to go over the middle. We just don't know much about Wallace's ability to do that time after time (though that's due to the coaches, rather than Wallace).

In short, I think a person can definitely argue that Brown is a better receiver for a team for all of these reasons. I, however, would argue that the two are incomparable because they occupy to very different roles on the team. Going back a decade, Wallace is taking Paxico's spot in being a deep threat/forcing the team to focus on him. Brown is taking Ward's spot, forcing teams to be very careful for the underneath stuff that chews up clock, turf, and keeps drives moving. You need both on a team.

The other problem however, is that you need a good line on both sides of the ball, a good qb, a good set of CB's and safeties, etc. So you can't really overextend yourself on one player. Personally, I say offer Wallace a little over what Brown is getting. He's a year older, and his role is somewhat difficult to fill (speed and hands). But not much more than any other spot in today's NFL.

I agree you need both, but i do not agree with brown being more versatile, wallace had 70 catches last season and they were not all fly routes. Wallaces skill set however allows for the whole offense to open up, so even when hes not getting the ball hes helping the passing game. Having a guy over the middle like brown is nice but in order for him to be great you need a guy like wallace to stretch the D.

[Craic]

Holmes was a success

He is a very talented player and he helped the Steelers to win the Super Bowl in 2008, and Holmes has had 1250 yards in 2009

On the field, Holmes was very good with the steelers...Off the field,this is a another story,but on the field,he was very good and he was a great clutch player with the steelers

Success?

How do you equate two good years as a successful draft? Heck, by those standards, Troy Edwards was almost a success. Santonio broke a thousand yards one time in his career. Only once has he had more than 55 catches in a season. He averaged 5 TD's a year for our #1 receiver! Beyond all that, he got himself suspended for a game for being stupid. Then suspended four more for the same stupidity. He treated all of that like it was a joke, and ended up forcing the team's hand in trading him away.

You really call that a success? Look, He had a great catch in 2008. He played really well in our SB run. He COULD HAVE done really good things, maybe even great things. But his OFF FIELD issues screwed up his ON FIELD issues by forcing him to be traded. Off field is not another story, because it has a direct impact on field.

[Craic]

I agree you need both, but i do not agree with brown being more versatile, wallace had 70 catches last season and they were not all fly routes. Wallaces skill set however allows for the whole offense to open up, so even when hes not getting the ball hes helping the passing game. Having a guy over the middle like brown is nice but in order for him to be great you need a guy like wallace to stretch the D.

And in order to have a guy like Wallace to be great, you need players like Brown to keep the safeties honest, instead of stacking three guys on Wallace.

[polamalubeast]

I agree you need both, but i do not agree with brown being more versatile, wallace had 70 catches last season and they were not all fly routes. Wallaces skill set however allows for the whole offense to open up, so even when hes not getting the ball hes helping the passing game. Having a guy over the middle like brown is nice but in order for him to be great you need a guy like wallace to stretch the D.

The steelers are better with Wallace that without Wallace

But Brown would be as good as he is currently with or without Wallace

I reminds me that many thought Wes Welker was just good, because of Randy Moss...But in 2011, Welker was still very good!

[Craic]

The steelers are better with Wallace that without Wallace

But Brown would be as good as he is currently with or without Wallace

I reminds me that many thought Wes Welker was just good, because of Randy Moss...But in 2011, Welker was still very good!

So wait a second then, if Brown is just as good no matter who he is playing with, but Wallace needs help to make him be better, than doesn't that make Brown the better player?

[steeldawg]

And in order to have a guy like Wallace to be great, you need players like Brown to keep the safeties honest, instead of stacking three guys on Wallace. Wallace was getting done before brown got on the field, and im not saying that brown is bad i love brown but my point is giving 8 million a year to your #2 and letting your #1 walk for 11 million is crazy. Its for wallace not to ask for that kind of money because other receivers who have not done what he has done have gotten that money.

[steeldawg]

The steelers are better with Wallace that without Wallace

But Brown would be as good as he is currently with or without Wallace

I reminds me that many thought Wes Welker was just good, because of Randy Moss...But in 2011, Welker was still very good!

How do you know? We have seen wallace perform without brown. We have not seen brown without wallace, and preseason doesnt count.

[polamalubeast]

Success?

How do you equate two good years as a successful draft? Heck, by those standards, Troy Edwards was almost a success. Santonio broke a thousand yards one time in his career. Only once has he had more than 55 catches in a season. He averaged 5 TD's a year for our #1 receiver! Beyond all that, he got himself suspended for a game for being stupid. Then suspended four more for the same stupidity. He treated all of that like it was a joke, and ended up forcing the team's hand in trading him away.

You really call that a success? Look, He had a great catch in 2008. He played really well in our SB run. He COULD HAVE done really good things, maybe even great things. But his OFF FIELD issues screwed up his ON FIELD issues by forcing him to be traded. Off field is not another story, because it has a direct impact on field.

not compare Edwards to Holmes!

Holmes was a very talented player and he helped the Steelers won the Super Bowl in 2008(He made a big play vs SD and BAL too)

Of course off the field,this is another story, but if in 2013 the steelers draft a talented player like Holmes but with no off-field issues, I will be very happy

[polamalubeast]

How do you know? We have seen wallace perform without brown. We have not seen brown without wallace, and preseason doesnt count.

Antonio is a very talented player

I reminds me that some person said that Woodley would not be very good without Harrison, but Woodley was very dominant in the four games without Harrison in 2011 and I was not surprised because Woodley is a very talented player

When you're a talented player, the player will play well unless you have no talent in all positions(as Steve Smith in carolina in 2010)

[86WARD]

First of all, I must say that Brown is one of my favorite players on the team...but he's not Mike Wallace good...not yet. That's the reality...it's funny how


Then why was Brown the MVP last year? #1 talent has to show up and play in order to really claim the #1 title too. In addition, the free market has been tested with Wallace and nobody made him an offer. If he was Fitz or Johnson good, then there would have been a line of offers regardless of the $ or compensatory draft picks. Wallace has elite speed, but does not take over a game like the previously mentioned WRs or even AB.

Casey Hampton was once a team MVP...he's not and never was better than Aaron Smith. That's just a silly argument. Wallace has elite speed yes. He can also take over a game with that speed and with his short game. Not all of his 70+ catches last season were deep balls...lol. Where was Antonio Brown's Rookie of the year award...I think Wallace has one of those under his belt...lol.


Actually that remains to be seen. Brown has a better work ethic, better hands, runs better routes, catches the ball better in traffic, and is a better open field runner after the catch.

He might run better routes, but the rest of the stuff you mention there is totally false. Wallace dropped 4 of 76 last season...Brown wasn't close to that ratio and if you've watched the preseason, Brown has dropped 3-4 passes already. "Catches the ball better in traffic" - lol...should we start to list the guys who can catch the ball in traffic that aren't good? David Tyree, Braylon Edwards...even Heyward-Bey can catch in traffic...none of which are on the plain of Mike Wallace. Let's compare the numbers of Brown's first seasons and Wallace's first two seasons...

Brown - 1300 yards - 2 TDs
Wallace - 2000 yards - 16 TDs

Not close...lol.


That's so over-hyped. Did Hines Ward stop being effective when Burress left? Antonio Brown was the Steelers best player in preseason with Wallace sitting down in Florida. The reason Brown overtook Wallace as the Steelers best receiver is because Brown works harder and has gained Ben's trust to a greater degree. Ben knows Antonio will work to the whistle to get open , and will catch the ball in traffic without complaint.


Cause Wallace won't do that and Ben's not a fan of him, despite speaking with him on a weekly/daily basis...lol.



The difference is that Wallace comes, now, with the reputation of being the deep threat. Give Sanders and Brown 5 or 6 games together and let's see if defenses start double covering the deep threat. Also, Wallace had a significant drop off in the last 5/6 games last year. Brown continued to improve and impress.

Brown's number were NOT that much better than Wallace...something like 50-60 yards and a touchdown...NOT a big difference. It's funny how everyone thinks that Brown eclipsed Wallace in the "stat department" the second half of the year, when in actuality, he really didn't. Wallace's numbers didn't "decline" because he stopped playing, his numbers declined because teams began playing hi differently and slept on the other guys. Not taking anything away from Brown, but the "Wallace bashers/haters" pretty much swung and missed on this argument. Not to mention that Ben was injured the second half of the season and clearly couldn't throw the deep ball to Wallace on the routes that Arians had hi running.


So you're OK with letting go of Hood and Pouncey, then? Or with dumping Harrison or Ike Taylor at the end of this year and not replacing him ever, just having a low-round rookie play the position for the next 5 years? Because that's the kind of decision you'd be making.

Yes. Harrison and Hampton can go and some of that coin can go right into Wallace's pocket. Bottom line is that Wallace needs Brown and Brown needs Wallace and Ben needs them both. WR's aren't as "replaceable" as you say. How'd Limas Sweed, Dallas Baker, Willie Reid, Fred Gibson, Lee Mays, Danny Farmer, Plaxico Burress, Tyler Grisham, Cedric Wilson, Troy Edwards, Malcom Johnson work out? NOt as easily replaced as you'd like to think and not at the quality of Wallace. If the Steelers have the opportunity to keep all three (Wallace, Sanders and Brown) of them together for Ben...you do it...


It's funny how quickly Brown went from a "nobody" to the "Holy Savior" and Wallace went from the "Holy Savior" and everyone defending how good he was all around to a "nobody." It's just brutal how people want to discredit Wallace's accomplishments because he "held out."

[X-Terminator]

IMO, if the Steelers allow Wallace to walk for a million bucks a year, it will be a mistake. It's not imperative that they sign him, because they will be successful with or without him, but it should be pretty obvious to even the biggest anti-Wallace fan that the team is better with him than without him. Plus, in 2 years the salary cap will take a huge jump with the new TV deal kicking in, so they will have the money. They just need to get through next season's cap problem.

[Craic]

not compare Edwards to Holmes!

Holmes was a very talented player and he helped the Steelers won the Super Bowl in 2008(He made a big play vs SD and BAL too)

Of course off the field,this is another story, but if in 2013 the steelers draft a talented player like Holmes but with no off-field issues, I will be very happy

Simply put, no it is not another story. It is the same story, because he is no longer with us because of it. It AFFECTED his on field play. You can't divide those out. However, you switched the argument. Before you said he was a talented football player and thus, was a success. Now, you're just calling him a talented football players. On that, we agree. But he was not a success with the Steelers. He has a great playoff run one year.

Speaking of not being a success, let's look at his target vs. Reception and percentage rate compared to the guy drafted closed to him the next year (no one his year), and then our other four receivers who are considered (or might be considered) a success over the last few years.

​Santonio Holmes


Year
Targets
Reception
Average


2011
98
51
52%


2010
112
61
54.5%


2009
138
79
57%


2008
114
55
48%


2007
85
52
61%


2006
86
49
57%


55% reception rate over career

Now, let's look at Matt Jones, drafted the next year, only four spots higher.

Matt Jones


Year
Targets
Reception
Average


2008
108
65
60%


2007
50
24
48%


2006
76
41
54%


2005
69
36
52%


Average 54% reception rate over career.

Steelers Players



Hines Ward



Year
Receptions
Targets
Average


1998
15
33
45%


1999
61
102
60%


2000
48
84
57%


2001
94
145
65%


2002
112
161
70%


2003
95
156
61%


2004
80
108
74%


2005
59
114
52% (missed camp)


2006
74
126
59%


2007
71
112
63%


2008
81
125
65%


2009
95
136
70%


2010
59
93
63%


2011
46
63
73%


Average 63% reception rate over career.

Young Money

Mike Wallace


Year
Receptions
Targets
Average


2009
39
72
54%


2010
73
120
61%


2011
75
124
61%


Average 59% reception rate.

Antonio Brown


Year
Receptions
Targets
Average


2010
21
23
91%


2011
74
131
57%


Average 62% reception rate over career. (I used the exact numbers here, rather than averaging the averages, because it would have weighed it too much in the favor of the higher number. The rest average out about the same either way).

Emmanuel Sanders


Year
Receptions
Targets
Average


2010
35
61
57%


2011
28
51
55%


Average 56% reception rate over career. (Used same method as Antonio Brown).

________________

So, survey says?

Hines ward was off the charts good for a few years.
Brown is second best here with 62% reception rate - meaning as far as his hands are concerned, he's ranking right there with Hines Ward for now.
Mike Wallace is third best with 59% reception rate.
Emmanuel Sanders, who was injured last year and couldn't really take a step forward, still has a 57% reception rating overall.
Santonio Holmes has a 55% rate - which is one percent over a guy that is now sitting at home watching football.

I wouldn't call Holmes a success. Especially not for Pittsburgh, since all of our top receivers over the last few years have a better reception rating than him.

[zulater]

It's just brutal how people want to discredit Wallace's accomplishments because he "held out."

It's brutal how you're distorting what people are saying. No one is seeking to discredit Wallace. But the truth is that his production dropped drastically in the second half of last season. Fact. No distortion. It's also true that there's been rumors that Wallace sulked as Brown's star started to rise in the second half of last season. It's also true that Wallace hasn't been an impact player in the playoffs.

So if people question whether the Steelers should commit a boat load of money to sign Wallace to a long term deal, it's a valid argument. Personally I hope they get something done to that end, but i doubt that it will happen.

[86WARD]

IMO, if the Steelers allow Wallace to walk for a million bucks a year, it will be a mistake. It's not imperative that they sign him, because they will be successful with or without him, but it should be pretty obvious to even the biggest anti-Wallace fan that the team is better with him than without him. Plus, in 2 years the salary cap will take a huge jump with the new TV deal kicking in, so they will have the money. They just need to get through next season's cap problem.

Agree!!

[polamalubeast]

Simply put, no it is not another story. It is the same story, because he is no longer with us because of it. It AFFECTED his on field play. You can't divide those out. However, you switched the argument. Before you said he was a talented football player and thus, was a success. Now, you're just calling him a talented football players. On that, we agree. But he was not a success with the Steelers. He has a great playoff run one year.

Speaking of not being a success, going back to 2010 (earliest stats I can find), let's look at his target vs. Reception and percentage rate.



Year
Targets
Reception
Average


2011
98
51
52%


2010
112
61
54.5%


2009
138
79
57%


2008
114
55
48%


2007
85
52
61%


2006
86
49
57%



55% reception rate over career

Now, let's look at Matt Jones, drafted the next year, only four spots higher.







Year
Targets
Reception
Average


2008
108
65
60%


2007
50
24
48%


2006
76
41
54%


2005
69
36
52%



Average 54% reception rate over career.

Now, lets look at a real "success" in the Steelers teams, just for a comparison.

Hines Ward



Year
Receptions
Targets
Average



1998
15
33
45%


1999
61
102
60%


2000
48
84
57%


2001
94
145
65%


2002
112
161
70%


2003
95
156
61%


2004
80
108
74%


2005
59
114
52% (missed camp)


2006
74
126
59%


2007
71
112
63%


2008
81
125
65%


2009
95
136
70%


2010
59
93
63%


2011
46
63
73%



Average 63% reception rate over career.

Now, let's look at Young Money.

Mike Wallace


Year
Receptions
Targets
Average


2009
39
72
54%


2010
73
120
61%


2011
75
124
61%



Average 59% reception rate.

Antonio Brown


Year
Receptions
Targets
Average


2010
21
23
91%


2011
74
131
57%


Average 62% reception rate over career. (I used the exact numbers here, rather than averaging the averages, because it would have weighed it too much in the favor of the higher number. The rest average out about the same either way).

Emmanuel Sanders


Year
Receptions
Targets
Average


2010
35
61
57%


2011
28
51
55%


Average 56% reception rate over career. (Used same method as Antonio Brown).

________________

So, survey says?

Hines ward was off the charts good for a few years.
Brown is second best here with 62% reception rate - meaning as far as his hands are concerned, he's ranking right there with Hines Ward for now.
Mike Wallace is third best with 59% reception rate.
Emmanuel Sanders, who was injured last year and couldn't really take a step forward, still has a 57% reception rating overall.
Santonio Holmes has a 55% rate - which is one percent over a guy that is now sitting at home watching football.

I wouldn't call Holmes a success. Especially not for Pittsburgh, since all of our top receivers over the last few years have a better reception rating than him.


2008 was a difficult year for Holmes during the regular season(same for Ben), but Holmes played very well late in the season and the playoffs(same for Ben)


I not count his two years in New York with Mark Sanchez

In the stats, do not forget that Holmes had an average of 16.3 yards per catch with Pittsburgh

Yes, Wallace, Ward was better than Holmes and it can be also the case for Antonio but Santonio was generally very good in Pittsburgh

And Holmes was at its best in big game(2008 playoffs and Holmes had 8 TD in last 7 games against the ravens)

[Craic]

It's funny how quickly Brown went from a "nobody" to the "Holy Savior" and Wallace went from the "Holy Savior" and everyone defending how good he was all around to a "nobody." It's just brutal how people want to discredit Wallace's accomplishments because he "held out."

Discredit? Nope, not at all. I think he is a key player for us and needed to, as they say, "take the top off" the defense. I don't even discount his lack of production the second half of the year, because I do believe he was instrumental in the other receivers catching more balls.

I don't however, think that he is heads and tails above Brown, nor do I think we should break the bank for him. The biggest part of his game is speed. All it takes is one knee injury and that part of his game is gone. Sure, he'd still be a pretty dang good WR in the NFL, I think, but his role in our offense would need to be filled by someone else. So I say, be careful in how much we give him.

A X-Term says, if it's a million a year difference, then so be it, give it to him (within reason, I'd say). But to give him enough money that it limits our ability to sign other players going forward, no way.

[Craic]

2008 was a difficult year for Holmes during the regular season(same for Ben), but Holmes played very well late in the season and the playoffs(same for Ben)


I not count his two years in New York with Mark Sanchez

In the stats, do not forget that Holmes had an average of 16.3 yards per catch with Pittsburgh

Yes, Wallace, Ward was better than Holmes and it can be also the case for Antonio but Santonio was generally very good in Pittsburgh

And Holmes was at its best in big game(2008 playoffs and Holmes had 8 TD in last 7 games against the ravens)

But the question is, "Was he a success," to which I believe the stats say, "No."

It doesn't matter that it's Sanchez throwing to him. These are targeted stats, so the ball was thrown to him in a place that he had the ability to make a play and catch the ball. I mean, Cotchery's stats only moved from 51% his last year with Sanchez to 53% his first year with Ben, and that's coming off the bench cold and trying to catch the ball. So I don't buy the "downgrade" argument, especially with Cotchery's stats barely changing when he came to us.

[polamalubeast]

But the question is, "Was he a success," to which I believe the stats say, "No."

It doesn't matter that it's Sanchez throwing to him. These are targeted stats, so the ball was thrown to him in a place that he had the ability to make a play and catch the ball. I mean, Cotchery's stats only moved from 51% his last year with Sanchez to 53% his first year with Ben, and that's coming off the bench cold and trying to catch the ball. So I don't buy the "downgrade" argument, especially with Cotchery's stats barely changing when he came to us.



I count only his years in Pittsburgh

If Holmes would not have had his injury in 2007, he would have more than 1,100 yards and it would have made 2 seasons with over 1,100 yards from 2007 to 2009 with Pittsburgh

[ALLD]

Sweed dropped more passes than he caught.

[steelreserve]

Man, I forgot about Reid; for some reason that seemed ages ago. I guess we've just had a good run of success recently with WRs. Holmes was definitely a success, no question about it; he did some great work for us and helped us win a Super Bowl. What he did after we cut him loose I don't care.

Anyway, I guess the point is, obviously I'd rather have Wallace if we can do it without hurting ourselves too badly in other areas. It's hard to say what our cap situation will be in a couple years, and in fact, probably no one but the FO knows for sure. Yes, there's a likely big bump in TV revenue coming, and we'll also probably have Harrison's $9M reduced or gone in a year or two, sad to say. On the other hand, we'll need to save $6-7M a year for Pouncey, probably $4-$5M for Hood, $5M+ for Sanders, and I'd like to think a few million apiece for Heyward, Allen, and one of our new linebackers who will hopefully develop into Harrison's replacement. I also know Timmons, Woodley, Ben and Colon all deferred BIG chunks of money later into their contracts to help us get through this year's crunch. Timmons and Woodley in particular were in the $10M range and are now sitting near $3-4M. So we've definitely already borrowed quite a bit against the increased salary cap, possibly $15M+ a year.

Maybe the money's there, maybe it isn't. But if it comes down to losing a receiver versus losing two or three guys who are less flashy but just as important to our success, then Wallace can go play for Jerry Jones and I won't shed a tear.

[86WARD]

It's brutal how you're distorting what people are saying. No one is seeking to discredit Wallace. But the truth is that his production dropped drastically in the second half of last season. Fact. No distortion. It's also true that there's been rumors that Wallace sulked as Brown's star started to rise in the second half of last season. It's also true that Wallace hasn't been an impact player in the playoffs.

So if people question whether the Steelers should commit a boat load of money to sign Wallace to a long term deal, it's a valid argument. Personally I hope they get something done to that end, but i doubt that it will happen.

It's true...People are down on Wallace because his production dropped from being on pace for 2000 yards in a season to what he ended up with. He got nothing but praise from people until his holdout and then fans turned on him...saying he's not the number one receiver...he CLEARLY was. His numbers were practically the same as Brown's. 58 yards and a TD difference. Couldn't be the fact that Arians had him running fly routes, having a QB that couldn't throw the ball deep because he was gimpy, a shitty O Line that didn't give Ben a lot of time to throw, teams playing him differently in coverages. Of course, that's Wallace's fault right?!? There's so much more that goes into Wallace "fading" towards the end of the season...than Wallace just fading...

He was terrible in Super Bowl XLIII too...lol. 9 catches for 89 and a TD. Terrible. The Denver game last year in the playoffs he had a rushing TD...Sanders led the team in receiving...I guess Brown fades in the playoffs too? Again, you don't take into credit what was surrounding Wallace during that time. I think that he was targeted 8 or 9 ties that game...4 of which were deep balls that landed incomplete. It's easy to throw that out there as a general statement and discount Wallace...very easy to throw that out there. If Wallace isn't on the field, Brown isn't as effective as he is. You can think he is, but he's not.

We can both agree that the team is better off with Wallace and that the team gets a deal done with him.

[Craic]

I count only his years in Pittsburgh

If Holmes would not have had his injury in 2007, he would have more than 1,100 yards and it would have made 2 seasons with over 1,100 yards from 2007 to 2009 with Pittsburgh

And? What if Emmanuel Sanders wasn't injured? What if Limas Sweed wasn't injured? What if. . . . The fact is, he was. The question is, Was he a success as a Steeler in the context of our drafting. The answer, for being a first round draft pick, is no. He has a catch ratio that is equal to Limas Sweed. Was he a success? One great playoff run does not equal a successful career with a team and thus, a successful draft pick. If he was a second rounder, sure, I'd be talking a bit different. If he was a third rounder, I'd be singing his praises. But a first round pick? Nope. Not at all.

[Craic]

Sweed dropped more passes than he caught.

Nope, he had a 50% rating. (well, 7/15, so technically, yeah. But he was 50/50 to be honest). The thing is, he only missed 5% less catches that Santonio Holmes, 2% less catches that Jericho Cotchery.

[ALLD]

Sweed couldn't catch a cold if he was naked in Siberia.

[zulater]

It's true...People are down on Wallace because his production dropped from being on pace for 2000 yards in a season to what he ended up with. He got nothing but praise from people until his holdout and then fans turned on him...saying he's not the number one receiver...he CLEARLY was. His numbers were practically the same as Brown's. 58 yards and a TD difference. Couldn't be the fact that Arians had him running fly routes, having a QB that couldn't throw the ball deep because he was gimpy, a shitty O Line that didn't give Ben a lot of time to throw, teams playing him differently in coverages. Of course, that's Wallace's fault right?!? There's so much more that goes into Wallace "fading" towards the end of the season...than Wallace just fading...

He was terrible in Super Bowl XLIII too...lol. 9 catches for 89 and a TD. Terrible. The Denver game last year in the playoffs he had a rushing TD...Sanders led the team in receiving...I guess Brown fades in the playoffs too? Again, you don't take into credit what was surrounding Wallace during that time. I think that he was targeted 8 or 9 ties that game...4 of which were deep balls that landed incomplete. It's easy to throw that out there as a general statement and discount Wallace...very easy to throw that out there. If Wallace isn't on the field, Brown isn't as effective as he is. You can think he is, but he's not.

We can both agree that the team is better off with Wallace and that the team gets a deal done with him.

Blah blah blah, trust me I can spin stats as easily as you are doing right now to make my case, but I wont bother. The fact is the Steelers know their business better than any of us do. I trust they'll make a fair offer to Wallace, in fact they already have. As in any negotiation it's not over until it's over. But right now it looks as if Wallace cares more about making money than staying a Steelers, so chances are he'll be gone after this year or the next. And guess what, if and when that happens the Steelers will continue to compete for Championships, and Antonio Brown barring injury, will still be an elite receiver.

[katmandu]

I wouldn't call that "rarely." Matter of fact, it looks like we've missed in each round except the first, Missed on this year's first rounder..... He's "injury prone". :rolleyes:

[Butch]

And? What if Emmanuel Sanders wasn't injured? What if Limas Sweed wasn't injured? What if. . . . The fact is, he was. The question is, Was he a success as a Steeler in the context of our drafting. The answer, for being a first round draft pick, is no. He has a catch ratio that is equal to Limas Sweed. Was he a success? One great playoff run does not equal a successful career with a team and thus, a successful draft pick. If he was a second rounder, sure, I'd be talking a bit different. If he was a third rounder, I'd be singing his praises. But a first round pick? Nope. Not at all.

Couldn't disagree any more than I do on this, stats only tell a part of the story. What Santonio did in the post season was incredible not only catching passes but also running back punts. I loved what he and Ben had when it came to crunchtime. Ben would scramble around and somehow Santonio would find a seam and down the field we would go. Great receivers and Great Quarterbacks go hand in hand and the two were a very dinamic duo. I don't care if you have a subpar season as long as you perform in winnin' time and that's exactly what Santonio did with us. It is to bad he couldn't have stayed with us a little longer what might have been.

[Steeldude]

How do you know? We have seen wallace perform without brown. We have not seen brown without wallace, and preseason doesnt count.

We also saw Wallace pretty much disappear in the last 6 games of the regular season.

[steeldawg]

We also saw Wallace pretty much disappear in the last 6 games of the regular season.

i saw him catch 2 tds over the last 6 games matching browns season total.

[Craic]

Couldn't disagree any more than I do on this, stats only tell a part of the story. What Santonio did in the post season was incredible not only catching passes but also running back punts. I loved what he and Ben had when it came to crunchtime. Ben would scramble around and somehow Santonio would find a seam and down the field we would go. Great receivers and Great Quarterbacks go hand in hand and the two were a very dinamic duo. I don't care if you have a subpar season as long as you perform in winnin' time and that's exactly what Santonio did with us. It is to bad he couldn't have stayed with us a little longer what might have been.

Yes, but one post-season doesn't make a successful career, nor does it make him a successful draft pick for us. I just can't fathom how people think that out of 100 balls thrown to him, catching five more on average than Limas Sweed, getting suspended for smoking pot (regardless of whether you agree with the law or not, he violated it), getting suspended again for four games for substance abuse (probably pot), only having one 1000 yard receiving season (and yeah, he got injured, so does everyone else) and then moving on to being an also ran in another team is "successful" for a first round draft pick.

As I keep saying, one post season does not make a successful career - or even career with the Steelers.

[polamalubeast]

And? What if Emmanuel Sanders wasn't injured? What if Limas Sweed wasn't injured? What if. . . . The fact is, he was. The question is, Was he a success as a Steeler in the context of our drafting. The answer, for being a first round draft pick, is no. He has a catch ratio that is equal to Limas Sweed. Was he a success? One great playoff run does not equal a successful career with a team and thus, a successful draft pick. If he was a second rounder, sure, I'd be talking a bit different. If he was a third rounder, I'd be singing his praises. But a first round pick? Nope. Not at all.

Holmes had a great season in 2007

You underestimate the YPC...Holmes had 16.3 YPC with Pittsburgh

also not all the first round pick becomes a super star...I would say that Holmes is the 12th best player in the first round in 2006..Not bad!

[Count Steeler]

Wallace after the bye: 271 yds, 19 receptions, 2 TD

Brown after the bye: 482 yds, 25 receptions, 1 TD.

Hardly insignificant.

[86WARD]

Blah blah blah, trust me I can spin stats as easily as you are doing right now to make my case, but I wont bother. The fact is the Steelers know their business better than any of us do. I trust they'll make a fair offer to Wallace, in fact they already have. As in any negotiation it's not over until it's over. But right now it looks as if Wallace cares more about making money than staying a Steelers, so chances are he'll be gone after this year or the next. And guess what, if and when that happens the Steelers will continue to compete for Championships, and Antonio Brown barring injury, will still be an elite receiver.

Lol...I'm not spinning anything...they are what they are...and there's a lot of factors that go into them that some people refuse to acknowledge.

[86WARD]

We also saw Wallace pretty much disappear in the last 6 games of the regular season.

...along with Brown...

[zulater]

...along with Brown...

Really? Brown averaged over 80 yards per game receiving the last 6 regular season games, while Wllace averaged just over 45 yards per game.

[Butch]

Yes, but one post-season doesn't make a successful career, nor does it make him a successful draft pick for us. I just can't fathom how people think that out of 100 balls thrown to him, catching five more on average than Limas Sweed, getting suspended for smoking pot (regardless of whether you agree with the law or not, he violated it), getting suspended again for four games for substance abuse (probably pot), only having one 1000 yard receiving season (and yeah, he got injured, so does everyone else) and then moving on to being an also ran in another team is "successful" for a first round draft pick.

As I keep saying, one post season does not make a successful career - or even career with the Steelers.

Ok but consider how short his time with us was and I still thank God that he was on our team in that one magical season. To compare Santonio to Limas is a joke Limas was never clutch catching the ball. Yes he threw a helluva block once but he is nowhere near to what Santonio brought to the table. At least Santonio could get it done when it counted. Santonio dropped a wide open pass just before he caught, what I and many others think of, as the game's greatest catch. Don't know how you feel about that catch, but I would like to know. Like it or not that one catch will forever link Santonio to Steeler lore forever!!!

As for the drugs it was definitely his undoing and that is a sad fact of life. While you may hold that against him I tend to think it makes him more human than super hero. I'm more concerned about his ego since he left us than I am about his drug addiction. Not trying to justify it, I don't like dope but I do understand why some people have issues with it.

[steelreserve]

Yes, but one post-season doesn't make a successful career, nor does it make him a successful draft pick for us. I just can't fathom how people think that out of 100 balls thrown to him, catching five more on average than Limas Sweed, getting suspended for smoking pot (regardless of whether you agree with the law or not, he violated it), getting suspended again for four games for substance abuse (probably pot), only having one 1000 yard receiving season (and yeah, he got injured, so does everyone else) and then moving on to being an also ran in another team is "successful" for a first round draft pick.

As I keep saying, one post season does not make a successful career - or even career with the Steelers.

It wasn't just the postseason; that entire year he emerged as a dangerous playmaker and really one of the main keys to the offense after Ben, if not THE main key.

Whatever else you might say about Holmes or whatever his career stats may indicate, I do not think we would have won the Super Bowl in 2008 without him, and hell, without his game-winning catch against Baltimore, we wouldn't even have won the division. That alone makes him at least a break-even draft pick.

Yes, the rest of his career has been fairly disappointing and a story of missed potential, but think about it for a second. If you could predict the future and saw that you could win the Super Bowl by using a first-round draft pick on a guy who would give you one amazing year, and that's all you'd ever get from him - you'd take that deal in a second. Every team would; in fact, they routinely give up first-rounders hoping for exactly the same thing. Maybe we got lucky, maybe Holmes was just in the right place at the right time like, say, Desmond Howard - but I wouldn't change a thing.

[Craic]

It wasn't just the postseason; that entire year he emerged as a dangerous playmaker and really one of the main keys to the offense after Ben, if not THE main key.

Whatever else you might say about Holmes or whatever his career stats may indicate, I do not think we would have won the Super Bowl in 2008 without him, and hell, without his game-winning catch against Baltimore, we wouldn't even have won the division. That alone makes him at least a break-even draft pick.

Yes, the rest of his career has been fairly disappointing and a story of missed potential, but think about it for a second. If you could predict the future and saw that you could win the Super Bowl by using a first-round draft pick on a guy who would give you one amazing year, and that's all you'd ever get from him - you'd take that deal in a second. Every team would; in fact, they routinely give up first-rounders hoping for exactly the same thing. Maybe we got lucky, maybe Holmes was just in the right place at the right time like, say, Desmond Howard - but I wouldn't change a thing.

The original context of the argument was that the Steelers should consider Holmes a "successful" draft pick. For where he was drafted, I think we got too little out of him over the long haul. For that specific year your talking about, and especially the playoffs, he was stellar. I agree we wouldn't have made it without him. However, I would also say that we wouldn't have made the 2010 Superbowl without Brown. He played lights-out through the playoffs, and made multiple third down catches, including a David Tyree type catch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-3lIHIyXLs

That doesn't mean I think he was as invaluable as Holmes, just that I'm not going judge Holmes as successful from one season - a season, by the way, that is below average in the amount of times he actual caught a ball thrown to him, as compared to Hines Ward, Antonio Brown, Mike Wallace, and Emmanuel Sanders.

[polamalubeast]

In fact, Holmes had been very good in regular season in 2007 and 2009 and he was excellent in the playoffs in 2008....He was a very clutch player

For me, I give a draft grade of B to the steelers for having drafted Holmes

Holmes deserves to be criticized for his off-field issue and for his 2011 season with the jets, but as player with the Steelers, he was not perfect, but he was very good, especially in the clutch situations

to be honest, I was very scared of Holmes before the AFC TITLE game in 2010, because he is a very good clutch player

[steelreserve]

The original context of the argument was that the Steelers should consider Holmes a "successful" draft pick. For where he was drafted, I think we got too little out of him over the long haul. For that specific year your talking about, and especially the playoffs, he was stellar. I agree we wouldn't have made it without him. However, I would also say that we wouldn't have made the 2010 Superbowl without Brown. He played lights-out through the playoffs, and made multiple third down catches, including a David Tyree type catch.

That doesn't mean I think he was as invaluable as Holmes, just that I'm not going judge Holmes as successful from one season - a season, by the way, that is below average in the amount of times he actual caught a ball thrown to him, as compared to Hines Ward, Antonio Brown, Mike Wallace, and Emmanuel Sanders.

You're right, Holmes wasn't a GREAT pick, but was he worth the pick knowing what we know now? Absolutely. You want to talk about being worth a big contract, then hell yes, I'm glad we didn't give one to Holmes.

As far as draft picks go, obviously Brown was an absolute steal. I'm nervous about paying him what we're about to, but that would go for any young player. A couple things that work in his favor are the fact that he's shown ZERO attitude, and that his game isn't so much the flashy big-play ability that can come and go, but that he's simply a guy who knows how to get open somehow. Those both make me feel safer. It's almost like he's the black Hines Ward.

[Craic]

You're right, Holmes wasn't a GREAT pick, but was he worth the pick knowing what we know now? Absolutely. You want to talk about being worth a big contract, then hell yes, I'm glad we didn't give one to Holmes.

As far as draft picks go, obviously Brown was an absolute steal. I'm nervous about paying him what we're about to, but that would go for any young player. A couple things that work in his favor are the fact that he's shown ZERO attitude, and that his game isn't so much the flashy big-play ability that can come and go, but that he's simply a guy who knows how to get open somehow. Those both make me feel safer. It's almost like he's the black Hines Ward.

I was with you right up to the "black Hines Ward." I just don't understand that comment.

However, I'd say he's Hines Ward except for his blocking ability, but with some speed.

[steelreserve]

It's ok, you don't have to. I'd recommend increasing your alcohol intake if you truly want to grasp moments like those, but that's entirely your decision.

[Craic]

It's ok, you don't have to. I'd recommend increasing your alcohol intake if you truly want to grasp moments like those, but that's entirely your decision.

:chuckle:

[steelreserve]

such are the sacrifices we make in the name of the lord.

[43Hitman]

It's ok, you don't have to. I'd recommend increasing your alcohol intake if you truly want to grasp moments like those, but that's entirely your decision.

Hahaha! :lol::lol:

[86WARD]

Really? Brown averaged over 80 yards per game receiving the last 6 regular season games, while Wllace averaged just over 45 yards per game.

There ya go spinning and ignoring all factors of the game...lol. Don't forget the one less TD by Brown...you know where it "really" matters...

According to the Wallace "haters," those type of numbers (that Brown put up,) the kind Wallace put up in the Super Bowl - the biggest stage possible, are "no show" type of numbers...

[zulater]

There ya go spinning and ignoring all factors of the game...lol. Don't forget the one less TD by Brown...you know where it "really" matters...

According to the Wallace "haters," those type of numbers (that Brown put up,) the kind Wallace put up in the Super Bowl - the biggest stage possible, are "no show" type of numbers...

Enough with the hater b.s. There are no haters here, just doubters. And it's up to Wallace to prove his doubters wrong, and trust me, no one will mind if he does so.

[X-Terminator]

Missed on this year's first rounder..... He's "injury prone". :rolleyes:

Still don't understand that "injury prone" means you spend more time out of the lineup than on the field, I see. One major injury does not make a player "injury prone."