Why Big Ben's owed a presumption of innocence

[zulater]

Got your attention? :chuckle:

As indicated on the thread title this is strictly hypothetical. As of yet the Milledgeville accuser has of yet to recant her accusations.

But anyone familiar with Brian Banks and his story (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1199943/index.htm) should realize that this is a future possibility. False allegations of rape are made. And the falsely accused have to suffer through the consequences as if they're guilty, often for the rest of their life. Even if they eventually are acquitted or even if they're never formally charged as was the case with our Ben, their reputation is irreparably damaged.

Anyway just for the sake of argument, say there comes a day when Ben's accuser comes forward and confesses that she for whatever reason ( I'll enumerate potential reasons for falsehood later) made it all up. That whatever happened between her and Ben was consensual. What then? What does the NFL say, particularly Roger Goodell? Even though Ben Roethlisberger wasn't formally suspended for rape, that is in fact was why he was suspended. In essence when Roger Goodell suspended Ben for a crime he was never charged with he in effect was saying, local authorities can't prove you committed a crime, but I know you did. Therefore I will convict and punish you to the full extent I can punish a person that's never been charged with a criminal offense. Marking Ben as a guy who got away with it forever more in the general public's eye, or at least until such time as his accuser exonerates him.

Pretty bizarre huh?

Reading what I've just typed I'm thinking of the Herm Edwards line, "Don't press send". Let it go already, why dredge up the past? It's mostly forgotten, move on with life.

But I can't let it go. Because it's too important an issue to let die. Letting it go is an admission there's smoke behind that fire. Ignorance is bliss perhaps? He probably did something wrong, but he's better now, or so goes the theory that way too many Steeler fans subscribe to openly or secretly .

Well I say bullshit to the above! If you're a rapist you don't get better. You're a rapist period. And if I for one second believed that Ben Roethlisberger was or is a rapist I wouldn't want him on my team. And I believe the Rooney's feel similarly.

In the coming days I intend to explain why I believe Ben was falsely accused. And here's a quick outline of things I plan to cover.

1. The difference between an accuser and a victim and how it pertains to this case.

2. Ben's friends were not thugs. Not one person in his party had a criminal record. Non thugs don't cover up or aid and abet felonies, particularly after the fact. In other words one of these guys would have gave up his own mother in an interrogation if he knew something that the DA could have used. Non criminals don't lie well under pressure.

3. Ben tried to do the right thing that night for the most part. i.e rented party bus, refused to go back to girls dormitory when invited.

4. A just turned single 27 year old banging a college chick is totally acceptable. She was 20, not 15. She was in a bar being served alcohol , Ben had every right to think she was of legal drinking age. Not his job to I.D. patrons in a bar. And even if he knew she was 20, so what? Check out Robert Kraft's latest girlfriend.

That's mostly it for tonight. The real fireworks are ahead. :wink02:

[Chidi29]

Roger Goodell is smarter than either of us.

Therefore, we must trust his judgement.

[Count Steeler]

Roger Goodell is smarter than either of us.

Therefore, we must trust his judgement.

Well, now, that is subject to debate. Don't sell yourself short, Chidi, you are a pretty smart young man.

[zulater]

Roger Goodell is smarter than either of us.

Therefore, we must trust his judgement.

If his intentions were pure maybe. But they're not. He's a self serving ego maniacal scumbag piece of shit.

[stillers4me]

What is the statute of limitations for filing a false police report?

[Chidi29]

Well, now, that is subject to debate. Don't sell yourself short, Chidi, you are a pretty smart young man.

I was just trying to rile zu up. :chuckle:

But thanks Count!

[7willBheaven]

I only read the first little put of the post...as you just JUST LET IT GO...for crying out loud...its just going to bring up the ugly past, get people riled up and it will not change anything regardless of what everyone might think. Its over...move on...

[zulater]

What is the statute of limitations for filing a false police report?

I don't know. To the best of my knowledge Brian Bank's accuser has received no legal repercussions for her false allegations that robbed Mr Banks of 5 year's of his life and most likely any real possibility he had at an NFL career.

[zulater]

I only read the first little put of the post...as you just JUST LET IT GO...for crying out loud...its just going to bring up the ugly past, get people riled up and it will not change anything regardless of what everyone might think. Its over...move on...

No offense intended.

Don't click on the thread again then. Because I plan to have my say.

[Chidi29]

If his intentions were pure maybe. But they're not. He's a self serving ego maniacal scumbag piece of shit.

I've always heard that if you have a crush on someone, you bully them.

It's ok to let out your true feelings zu. This is a safe place.

[zulater]

I've always heard that if you have a crush on someone, you bully them.

It's ok to let out your true feelings zu. This is a safe place.

Not the night or thread to try to humor me Chidi.

I'll get into what Goodell's motivations were later. Quick preview, they weren't irrational. Just patently unfair, arbitrary, racially condescending, and self serving.

[86WARD]

I only read the first little put of the post...as you just JUST LET IT GO...for crying out loud...its just going to bring up the ugly past, get people riled up and it will not change anything regardless of what everyone might think. Its over...move on...

X2...

[zulater]

X2...

Fear the truth?

[Chidi29]

Fear the truth?

Yes, the Steelers' fans fear the truth that their QB is actually innocent...

[zulater]

Anyone who truly believes that Ben's innocent shouldn't see this subject matter as annoying.

[zulater]

Yes, the Steelers' fans fear the truth that their QB is actually innocent...

Anyone who believes Ben is innocent should keep the torch lit on this subject imo. Because the vast majority of non Steeler fans think he's a guy who probably got away with it.

[Chidi29]

Anyone who truly believes that Ben's innocent shouldn't see this subject matter as annoying.

I guess you know the best interests in everyone else?

I can see how it's annoying. I'd wager most Steelers' fans on this board believe he is innocent. And most have moved on from the incident. The phrase "beating a dead horse" comes to mind.

[Chidi29]

Anyone who believes Ben is innocent should keep the torch lit on this subject imo. Because the vast majority of non Steeler fans think he's a guy who probably got away with it.

Then go talk about it on a non-Steelers' forum.

[zulater]

Then go talk about it on a non-Steelers' forum.

I'll leave it to the moderators to decide if they want to move the thread to another forum.

I think it belongs here. Those that want to ignore this subject or not take part in this discussion feel free to ignore it. There's nothing to force anyone to click on any particular thread regardless of where it's posted.

[zulater]

I guess you know the best interests in everyone else?

I can see how it's annoying. I'd wager most Steelers' fans on this board believe he is innocent. And most have moved on from the incident. The phrase "beating a dead horse" comes to mind.

And I know for a fact that some people on this board think there's more to discuss and seethe at the popular perception that Ben got away with it.

[zulater]

I don't know about anyone else here. But at least a couple times a month I'm confronted with some blowhard that insists that our quarterback's a rapist. So instead of just sputtering back empty nothings I try to come back with hard facts as to why an uncharged man who's accuser stopped acting like a victim within 48 hours of making her allegation was quite likely never criminally offended.

[Wallace108]

4. A just turned single 27 year old banging a college chick is totally acceptable. She was 20, not 15. She was in a bar being served alcohol , Ben had every right to think she was of legal drinking age. Not his job to I.D. patrons in a bar. And even if he knew she was 20, so what? Check out Robert Kraft's latest girlfriend.
This is one of the things that really bothered me about how the story was reported. The accuser was constantly referred to as "underage." Yes, she was under the legal drinking age, but because of the way it was reported with the constant use of the word "underage," a lot of people who didn't take the time to actually follow the story thought she was under 18.

Heck, this is from the Post-Gazette:


Numerous female witnesses to Mr. Roethlisberger's night of heavy partying in Milledgeville, Ga., last month described unflattering behavior by the quarterback that included providing alcohol to underage students, calling them "bitches" and making a vulgar, sexual remark to several women.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/region/witnesses-to-roethlisberger-incident-detail-heavy-drinking-243668/#ixzz20wpeJSjJ

[steelerdude15]

My heart skipped a beat thinking this was real. Like you Zu, I'll never let this subject go until she comes out and says she wasn't raped. I just finished my BA in Political Science and took law classes and it pains me when innocent people are seen as being guilty for something they didn't do. I want to provide a link to a blog that was written by a doctor who broke down the police reports and explains why he is innocent and why the media made things worse: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/politics-journal/2010/4/15/the-media-lynching-of-ben-roethlisberger.html

Now, if you have read that blog, there are some things I want to point out. There were things in this case, on the accuser's side that don't add up, that create red flags for not only us, but police as well. First, the accuser's story changed three different times. That is a big red flag for police when interviewing a suspect, victim, or eyewitness. If someone changes their story, the police won't be able to determine if they're telling the truth because they won't know which story to believe. Not only does her story change three times, but she also states facts that went against eyewitness reports. This is shown in the above article. Second, certain details of the case did not help the accuser. For instance, she followed him from bar to bar and this is evident by her being in the background of photos taken at other bars, she repeatedly tried to get Ben's attention and finally succeeded, she was intoxicated at the age of twenty which we all know is illegal, etc. Of course I could argue more, but if you read the blog, I think you'll be satisfied.

The media (and some of you know how much I love the American media) made the situation ten times worse. Like always, they told only certain facts of the case and never told all of the facts and rode with it. ESPN is the major one to blame as they wouldn't let it go and kept going with it. For months they talked about it and helped ruin his reputation at the time. To continue on, the defense attorney for that area made an extremely political speech, why you may ask? Well, it was election time and his speech was completely obvious that it was geared to voters for him to be reelected.

One more thing, I can remember when this first came out, we as a fan base were criticized for not standing by him when most Steeler fans wanted him gone. Now that we do stand by him, we're criticized by other fan bases because we do and that he isn't in jail.

[siss]

I agree with, I am a studying criminal justice and I have poured over this case time after time after time. On top of being a female, it very much is interesting. And not just because its ben or he is a steeler. To be honest I studied the Kobe bryant case and came away feeling that he was a cheating ass hole but no rapist.

There are two things that stand out to me that I am not sure if any one else caught.
1. The DA saying that he didn't even have probable cause in the case. Probably cause being that it probable happened. In any sexual assult case, the female saying that it happened is probable cause. Generally but not always. So that tells me that he didn't believe the story and the rape kit was negative. The Da also addmitted that he know where the case was going from the beginning.

2. The girl saying she didn't want to go forth with charges. That she just wanted to forget the whole the thing but she wasn't backing down to her story. My theory is that she told her lawyer the truth and her lawyer said write to the DA, tell him not to press charges but don't back down from the story. That way they will not charge her with filing a false police reprt. No amount of money will ever make rape go away, further more teh DA had more to gain by going forth with charges. If he had put Big Bad Ben in Jail, who knows what that would have done for his career.

Furthermore, I have heard some stuff that is just rumor and I can't confirm it, but it leads me to believe that she isnt the most innocent of Georgia peaches herself. And I have heard this rumor in one form or another more than once so it leads me to believe its true or particially true.

Im looking forward to what you have to say Zu.

[fansince'76]

But at least a couple times a month I'm confronted with some blowhard that insists that our quarterback's a rapist.

Seeing as you're in Maryland, Ravens fans, I take it? If so, and I were you, I'd be shooting right back with the Ray Lewis example, considering how, UNLIKE Ben, he was actually ARRESTED, CHARGED and TRIED.

On that note, you can argue until you're blue in the face, Zu. It doesn't matter - people will always assume he's guilty. When I attended the Steelers/Broncos WC game this past January, there was a group of (very much drunken) assholes behind me who would stand up and start chanting "NO MEANS NO!" every time the Steelers offense was on the field. I simply ignored it. And I imagine the exact same thing will happen when the Steelers come here to play the Broncos this September. It is what it is.

[steelerdude15]

I agree with, I am a studying criminal justice and I have poured over this case time after time after time. On top of being a female, it very much is interesting. And not just because its ben or he is a steeler. To be honest I studied the Kobe bryant case and came away feeling that he was a cheating ass hole but no rapist.

There are two things that stand out to me that I am not sure if any one else caught.
1. The DA saying that he didn't even have probable cause in the case. Probably cause being that it probable happened. In any sexual assult case, the female saying that it happened is probable cause. Generally but not always. So that tells me that he didn't believe the story and the rape kit was negative. The Da also addmitted that he know where the case was going from the beginning.

2. The girl saying she didn't want to go forth with charges. That she just wanted to forget the whole the thing but she wasn't backing down to her story. My theory is that she told her lawyer the truth and her lawyer said write to the DA, tell him not to press charges but don't back down from the story. That way they will not charge her with filing a false police reprt. No amount of money will ever make rape go away, further more teh DA had more to gain by going forth with charges. If he had put Big Bad Ben in Jail, who knows what that would have done for his career.

Furthermore, I have heard some stuff that is just rumor and I can't confirm it, but it leads me to believe that she isnt the most innocent of Georgia peaches herself. And I have heard this rumor in one form or another more than once so it leads me to believe its true or particially true.

Im looking forward to what you have to say Zu.

These are all very good points. Furthermore, not only did the accuser and her lawyer not go forward with the charges, the police who were investigating had issues contacting both her and her lawyers. They simply didn't answer their phones nor did they get back to them. That's another red flag.

To continue on about that rumor, I read that she had been kicked out of the same bar the week before for being heavily intoxicated and creating problems.

[steelerdude15]

Seeing as you're in Maryland, Ravens fans, I take it? If so, and I were you, I'd be shooting right back with the Ray Lewis example, considering how, UNLIKE Ben, he was actually ARRESTED, CHARGED and TRIED.

On that note, you can argue until you're blue in the face, Zu. It doesn't matter - people will always assume he's guilty. When I attended the Steelers/Broncos WC game this past January, there was a group of (very much drunken) assholes behind me who would stand up and start chanting "NO MEANS NO!" every time the Steelers offense was on the field. I simply ignored it. And I imagine the exact same thing will happen when the Steelers come here to play the Broncos this September. It is what it is.

You have no clue had clueless Ravens fans are. They slam Ben all day long, but if it comes to Ray Lewis, that night during the Super Bowl never happened. They forget to acknowledge what happened, unlike us Steeler fans where we know he screwed up, treated people horribly before the accusations, and there are Steeler fans who still hate Ben and want him gone. As you said, it doesn't matter, people will always think he's a rapist, yet must guys who call him that hooked up with girls when they were his age and younger.

[86WARD]

Speaking of Ben "raping" chicks, is he going to Tahoe to compete in the golf tournament this year?

[steelerdude15]

Speaking of Ben "raping" chicks, is he going to Tahoe to compete in the golf tournament this year?

That's a good question. Personally, I would never step foot in Tahoe or Milledgeville again if I were in his shoes.

[steelerdiva]

OK, Zu...have your say, dear heart...but I am on the record with agreeing with 7willBheaven....this is old news. Whoever thinks Ben got away with something...well that's their problem.
The rest of us, including Ben (y'know....got hitched got a kid on the way), have moved on.

My .02 contributed...will not say anymore.

[zulater]

This is one of the things that really bothered me about how the story was reported. The accuser was constantly referred to as "underage." Yes, she was under the legal drinking age, but because of the way it was reported with the constant use of the word "underage," a lot of people who didn't take the time to actually follow the story thought she was under 18.

Heck, this is from the Post-Gazette:

I'm 52 now. I married at 30 and will celebrate my 22nd anniversary on the 28th of this month. I first started going out with my wife when I was 28. Prior to that I had a helluva time. I used to go down to Newark Delaware and troll the college bars whenever I had the chance. I hooked up with an 18 or 19 year old once or twice or so... in my mid twenties. Had no guilt about it then and certainly none now.

[zulater]

Someone asked me a good question. They said; "turn it around, what if Ben confessed his guilt in one or both or those incidents somewhere down the road. What would you say then?" Would you feel guilty, betrayed?"

Here's what I said. I would feel betrayed by Ben, but I wouldn't have one bit of guilt towards any opinion I expressed towards his "victims." ( remember, hypothetical question) "How can you say that?" I was asked. Easy. Neither accuser went the distance and saw to it that their attacker was punished like he should have been. Therefore not only were they responsible for their own attack going unpunished, but they also put future potential victims at risk by not having the courage to say in a court of law what needed to be said.

But as neither of these accusers ever even got close to stating their claims sworn to tell the truth on a witness stand in criminal proceeding therefore I feel no compulsion to believe either of them, nor will I have any sympathy if it ever turns out they actually were sexually assaulted.

These young woman risked nothing by taking the stand if their stories were true. Nothing!

[siss]

These are all very good points. Furthermore, not only did the accuser and her lawyer not go forward with the charges, the police who were investigating had issues contacting both her and her lawyers. They simply didn't answer their phones nor did they get back to them. That's another red flag.

To continue on about that rumor, I read that she had been kicked out of the same bar the week before for being heavily intoxicated and creating problems.

Yea I heard that, but that isnt what i'm talking about.

As for how I would feel if Ben confessess down the road. I would feel like I stood up for him for nothing. I have been told to get a life more than once...on this board, amoung other places...But there is not one shred of evidence that proves anything these girls said. And when that day comes I will say that I was wrong, but until than, prove it, beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that this man is a monster.


But one thing I have learned is that idiots are not able to reason. They see it there way. To those that hate on Ben, they don't want to see it any other way. The only way I think Ben ever truly celars his name is if one of the girls comes forth.

I never ever ever ever beleived MCNutty. Her story was way out there from the beginning. And there was never an ounce of proof. It was a money grab from the beginning. I was disapointed when he settled, but I guess Goodell wanted him to. And she didn't get a whole lot from him. but still, I had hoped that some stuff would be cleared up. I would have liked to hear his side of the story. But i don't think its a confession of guilt on his part either. I think he just had to make Goodell happy.

[vasteeler]

for those of you in the "let it go" crowd, put yourselves in his shoes for a moment. ben cant let it go, it has to be in mind constantly. people still discuss it, i still hear "rapistberger" and i bet he does too. i truly hope he is vindicated one day

[Craic]

Someone asked me a good question. They said; "turn it around, what if Ben confessed his guilt in one or both or those incidents somewhere down the road. What would you say then?" Would you feel guilty, betrayed?"

Here's what I said. I would feel betrayed by Ben, but I wouldn't have one bit of guilt towards any opinion I expressed towards his "victims." ( remember, hypothetical question) "How can you say that?" I was asked. Easy. Neither accuser went the distance and saw to it that their attacker was punished like he should have been. Therefore not only were they responsible for their own attack going unpunished, but they also put future potential victims at risk by not having the courage to say in a court of law what needed to be said.

But as neither of these accusers ever even got close to stating their claims sworn to tell the truth on a witness stand in criminal proceeding therefore I feel no compulsion to believe either of them, nor will I have any sympathy if it ever turns out they actually were sexually assaulted.

These young woman risked nothing by taking the stand if their stories were true. Nothing!

Excuse me here,

But that is the STUPIDEST F***ING ANSWER I HAVE EVER HEARD.

Educate yourself on what rape victims go through before you spout your damn ignorance http://www.tipnational.org/images/tRape_Reactions_of_the_Victim.pdf

It is this kind of BS that counselors deal with five years after a rape when the woman is blaming herself for one of a thousand different things - and still can't hold down a full time job, still can't have a relationship, and still sleeps in her closet with a friggen knife.

Think I'm exaggerating?

Unfreakingbelievable that people still have no damn clue as to the psychological destruction rape causes.

As for Ben, is it possible that he did it? Yep. Is it possible he didn't? Yep. Is either provable? absolutely not. This thread is asinine in the first place because it propagates a fallacy that anyone could "know" what happened.

However, when the kind of ignorant horses**t that is in bold above is spewed, the thread descends straight into stupidity - especially with a title that is an outright lie on such a sensitive issue. My god, grow up.

__________
EDIT: This is why you shouldn't post as a reaction. I'm not to going remove what I said . . . as people have probably already read it. But the direct shots at Zu were unnecessary and I apologize.

Guess the old-self came out a little bit here... sorry about that.

[X-Terminator]

:jawdrop2:

Damn, who knew Preacher had such a potty mouth? :wink02:

Goes to show what happens when someone is really emotional about an issue.

[zulater]

Excuse me here,

But that is the STUPIDEST FUCKING ANSWER I HAVE EVER HEARD.

Educate yourself on what rape victims go through before you spout your damn ignorance http://www.tipnational.org/images/tRape_Reactions_of_the_Victim.pdf

It is this kind of BS that counselors deal with five years after a rape when the woman is blaming herself for one of a thousand different things - and still can't hold down a full time job, still can't have a relationship, and still sleeps in her closet with a friggen knife.

Think I'm exaggerating?

Unfreakingbelievable that people still have no damn clue as to the psychological destruction rape causes.

As for Ben, is it possible that he did it? Yep. Is it possible he didn't? Yep. Is either provable? absolutely not. This thread is asinine in the first place because it propagates a fallacy that anyone could "know" what happened.

However, when the kind of ignorant horseshit that is in bold above is spewed, the thread descends straight into stupidity - especially with a title that is an outright lie on such a sensitive issue. My god, grow up.

__________
EDIT: This is why you shouldn't post as a reaction. I'm not to going remove what I said . . . as people have probably already read it. But the direct shots at Zu were unnecessary and I apologize.

Guess the old-self came out a little bit here... sorry about that.

Guess what, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I had an abused niece who shot her self in the head to get away from an abuser. So fuck you! I don't need your link. I've seen it up close and personal more than once.

I've familiarized myself with Ben's cases. These girls weren't brutalized! They weren't subject to long battering's that withered away their soul's. They were never in fear for their life. Nor did they have any reason to fear any retributions from Ben if they testified against him! Hell the thing is neither ever came close to ever testifying in a criminal proceeding regardless. Never even close!!!! .

The first accuser never even took her case to the police. Yeah I know that shit happens. But goofy bitch here was bragging about having Ben's love child. Anyone who familiarized themselves with her claims would almost certainly see a delusional woman who took out her unrequited love in the form of a retalitory claim of rape. I don't think the woman ever even got to the point of knowing what she'd say on the stand. She just wanted to hurt Ben in the only way she could, and that was with charges. Her own e-mails exposed her.

But Preacher is one of those that always believes the woman. No false claims of rape are ever made. Gee wonder why that gal that put away the USC linebacker decided to lie about lying?

And accuser number 2. After making her initial statement she refused to cooperate any further with Investigating authorities. Within 48 hours she hired a lawyer. ( victims are advocated by the state!) She gave some sort of lame excuse that she distrusted the police. So the GBA agreed to send a female investigator to take her statement at a place and time of her choosing. No dice. Just had her lawyer send a letter claiming Ben was guilty but she didn't want the DA to proceed with charges. Yeah I can respect that and so can my deceased niece.

[steelerdude15]

Yikes, this thread is getting out of hand! I think it's time to lock it and be done with it. We all have different opinions on the subject and of course, they must be respected.

[Craic]

Guess what, then I'm a fucking idiot.

I had an abused niece who shot her self in the head to get away from an abuser. So fuck you! I don't need your link. I've seen it up close and personal more than once.

I've familiarized myself with Ben's cases. These girls weren't brutalized! They weren't subject to long battering's that withered away their soul's. They were never in fear for their life. Nor did they have any reason to fear any retributions from Ben if they testified against him! Hell the thing is neither ever came close to ever testifying in a criminal proceeding regardless. Never even close!!!! .

The first accuser never even took her case to the police. Yeah I know that shit happens. But goofy bitch here was bragging about having Ben's love child. Anyone who familiarized themselves with her claims would almost certainly see a delusional woman who took out her unrequited love in the form of a retalitory claim of rape. I don't think the woman ever even got to the point of knowing what she'd say on the stand. She just wanted to hurt Ben in the only way she could, and that was with charges. Her own e-mails exposed her.

But Preacher is one of those that always believes the woman. No false claims of rape are ever made. Gee wonder why that gal that put away the USC linebacker decided to lie about lying?

And accuser number 2. After making her initial statement she refused to cooperate any further with Investigating authorities. Within 48 hours she hired a lawyer. ( victims are advocated by the state!) She gave some sort of lame excuse that she distrusted the police. So the GBA agreed to send a female investigator to take her statement at a place and time of her choosing. No dice. Just had her lawyer send a letter claiming Ben was guilty but she didn't want the DA to proceed with charges. Yeah I can respect that and so can my deceased niece.

1. I'm very sorry to hear about your niece. But that kind of abuse, even sexually, has some very different effects than rape (caused by the difference between a completely random act from the victims perspective, verses what has become a series of events).

2. This was not about the first accuser, so that has no bearing on this topic.

3. Where have I ever said that I always believe the woman? You're putting words in my mouth now. Matter of fact, I have consistently said that I believe Ben thought he was being Mr. Suave and had no intention of sexual abuse or rape in this case, and simply did not understand how he could come across as intimidating . . . and that's the main issue, there is often no black and white in these kinds of things. You are also forgetting that I deal with people who need attention, and crying rape is a great way of getting it. As far as the perecentages go, the FBI percentage of unfounded charges, depending on the studies or where you look, usually average between 2 - 8 percent of actual rape charges being unfounded.

4. It is not unheard of at all for Rape victims to hire a lawyer to find out what they are facing. They want an advocate for THEM, not someone who has another agenda.

5. D.A. and charges... There could be a million reasons, all of which neither you or I could ever know. Despite laws to protect victims, they get raped over and over again, in the press, on the stand, and in internet forums such as this one. Imagine if she really was raped, and is searching the internet today for "Rape help" and somehow, comes across your "Milledgeville Accusser Apologizes for False Allegations against QB" thread. The link doesn't show that it's "hypothetical". She clicks and sees the vitriol against her, for being nothing more than a rape victim. . . .

. . . and that is my overall point. Because we DON'T know what happened, we need to be careful casting spurious allegations. Even though we are sitting behind keyboards, there are real people who REALLY DID suffer rapes who come on these forums. We have a responsibility as human beings to keep that in mind, IMO.

BTW, go back and read any thread about this subject, and you will find that I say "IF" Ben did it, because I have no idea, and in all honesty, neither do you, nor does anyone else. Matter of fact, I have my doubts in this case, based on some of the other things I have read about rape victim actions, but that doesn't prove a thing to me.

6. Last, my response was specifically concerning your statement about "going the distance," and IMO, repeated often stated fallacies about rape victims. It had nothing to do with whether Ben actually did it or not.

7. I do hope you got to the end of my post. I apologized for making it personal before you responded. As you well know, these kinds of things are very powerful issues and evoke strong emotions.

[Craic]

Yikes, this thread is getting out of hand! I think it's time to lock it and be done with it. We all have different opinions on the subject and of course, they must be respected.

Naa,

I think Zu and I just had to get that out of our system.

[zulater]

Yikes, this thread is getting out of hand! I think it's time to lock it and be done with it. We all have different opinions on the subject and of course, they must be respected.

If that's the case I'll just start a new thread. There's more things I have to say on the subject matter. And I think there's more people that still want to weigh in.

Yeah I know Preacher and I derailed it a bit.Sorry. We've had this issue for a long time. I respect what he has to say but I still think an uncharged man is owed a presumption of innocence, even if you don't like him or have doubts. And clearly Roger Goodell with his actions against Ben removed that presumption of innocence in the public's eye. Therefore I think it's fair to take up Ben's cause from time to time. Because clearly those that presume his guilt never seem to fade away. So I think it's fair to make my points.

[steelerdude15]

If that's the case I'll just start a new thread. There's more things I have to say on the subject matter. And I think there's more people that still want to weigh in.

Yeah I know Preacher and I derailed it a bit.Sorry. We've had this issue for a long time. I respect what he has to say but I still think an uncharged man is owed a presumption of innocence, even if you don't like him or have doubts. And clearly Roger Goodell with his actions against Ben removed that presumption of innocence in the public's eye. Therefore I think it's fair to take up Ben's cause from time to time. Because clearly those that presume his guilt never seem to fade away. So I think it's fair to make my points.

I don't know, I think as time goes on, more and more people are letting it go or at least are talking about it less. Even if we try to prove people how the facts of the accusation changed, she was hard to get in contact with, etc, people will always think he's guilty and will make some BS excuse up because they can't counter our arguments. It's just hope people are I guess.

[zulater]

5. D.A. and charges... There could be a million reasons, all of which neither you or I could ever know. Despite laws to protect victims, they get raped over and over again, in the press, on the stand, and in internet forums such as this one. Imagine if she really was raped, and is searching the internet today for "Rape help" and somehow, comes across your "Milledgeville Accusser Apologizes for False Allegations against QB" thread. The link doesn't show that it's "hypothetical". She clicks and sees the vitriol against her, for being nothing more than a rape victim. . . .

. . . and that is my overall point. Because we DON'T know what happened, we need to be careful casting spurious allegations. Even though we are sitting behind keyboards, there are real people who REALLY DID suffer rapes who come on these forums. We have a responsibility as human beings to keep that in mind, IMO.

If the Milledgeville accuser stumbles upon this thread, and she actually was raped, well that's part of the the consequences she gets for allowing a rapist to get away with it without at least offering up a fight. Yeah I know a cross examination would have gotten ugly and been painful. But if the truth was on her side she would have come out a stronger person regardless of what kind of verdict was rendered.

If she was actually raped she'll regret not pursuing charges for the rest of her life and quite likely will never get real closure. Whether a verdict of guilty or innocent is rendered any true rape victim that isn't putting herself at further risk by taking the witness stand should do so. If her father and lawyer advised her against proceeding with charges and she truly was assaulted shame on them!

Personally I think she was advised and took a different path because the truth of that night's event's didn't amount to rape.

[Craic]

If that's the case I'll just start a new thread. There's more things I have to say on the subject matter. And I think there's more people that still want to weigh in.

Yeah I know Preacher and I derailed it a bit.Sorry. We've had this issue for a long time. I respect what he has to say but I still think an uncharged man is owed a presumption of innocence, even if you don't like him or have doubts. And clearly Roger Goodell with his actions against Ben removed that presumption of innocence in the public's eye. Therefore I think it's fair to take up Ben's cause from time to time. Because clearly those that presume his guilt never seem to fade away. So I think it's fair to make my points.

Now, when you start putting it this way, there's a whole different set of discussions here. Let me break them up, and I think you might be surprised at how much I agree with you.


Yeah I know Preacher and I derailed it a bit.Sorry. We've had this issue for a long time. I respect what he has to say

And I, you. Congrats however, on succeeding on getting me to drop the F-bomb! :chuckle:


I still think an uncharged man is owed a presumption of innocence, even if you don't like him or have doubts.
Believe it or not, I agree with you here. The difference in our positions I believe, is that for me, the presumption of innocence is not the same as a presumption of no complicity in any element whatsoever. When the first issue came about, there were many who were arguing that there was no way Ben would have sex with her, based on what, I don't know. I felt that he was at least complicit in that he did have sex with her and at the very least, put himself in a bad position (no pun intended). However, I tend to without judgment on guilt or innocence, because it is out of my reach to know, unless I am one of them. So, like you, I give a presumption of innocence to the accusation, but do not reject the fact that the presumption has a 50/50 shot of being wrong every time.


And clearly Roger Goodell with his actions against Ben removed that presumption of innocence in the public's eye.

I would definitely disagree with you here. That presumption was removed, IMO, by it being the second accusation against Ben. That issue when a long, long ways in solidifying people's opinion of Ben. Goodell's actions, in multiple ways, were a godsend for Ben.

1. It gave him an avenue of public repentance. By doing what Goodell wanted and not arguing about it, Ben was able to begin to turn his reputation around with a number of people. Think about the interviews he had at training camp that summer. The way he was treated would have been very different IMO, had he not gone through what Goodell asked of him. In a very real sense.

2. It brought closure on the subject for Ben's professional life. Sure, there were people that still referred to it, but it was almost always in the past tense.

3. Whatever happened in those counseling sessions, it got Ben's head on straight. The team has benefited from it, this family has benefited from it (based on Ben's comments on the issue), and Ben has definitely benefited from it himself.

I'm fully aware of the P.R. battle Goodell engaged in around the SB, and a number of other things that happened. But to put the removal of an assumption of innocence on anyone's shoulders other than Ben's, when he should have learned from the first time, is misguided, IMO.


Because clearly those that presume his guilt never seem to fade away.
And they never will. There are people who assume he's innocent because he's a Steeler, there are people who assume he's guilty because he's a Steeler. There are people who assume innocence and guilt for a multitude of different reasons, and there's nothing here that can be said to change either mind. Furthermore, as I keep saying, in the end, there are only two people who really know what happened. Anyone else's guess is just that, a guess.

With that said, as upset as I was at your post, believe me, I get just as upset, if not more, when something as despicable as rape gets turned into a punchline at a football game to needle an opponent.

[tube517]

Sorry but Jack Bucks famous call of Kirk Gibson's home run in the 1988 World Series just played in my head when I saw Preacher drop that F bomb :eek: :chuckle:

Sent from my Thrive using Tapatalk2

[zulater]

Furthermore, as I keep saying, in the end, there are only two people who really know what happened. Anyone else's guess is just that, a guess.

I don't even know if that's a given. The girl was 3 times over the legal limit as per her B.A.C. She may have actually been talked into believing a reality that wasn't factual. Seriously at that level of intoxication her view of reality could very well have been altered or dimmed.

Now of course some would say that her level of inebriation makes Ben guilty of a crime due to her diminished capacity. But I disagree. Unless Ben slipped her a roofie her state of sobriety is her own responsibility. Again she was 20 not 15. Personally I don't think there's a whole lot of difference in the maturity level of a 28 year old man and a 20 year old woman, but I suppose that's debatable. Regardless at 20 years old you're responsible for your own actions. I think her excessive drinking left her vulnerable to being put into a situation she came to regret after the fact.

Truthfully at that age though drinking I put myself in a few situations that I would later regret. Difference possibly being that I didn't defer blame on other's to explain away my regrettable actions after the fact.

[steelerdude15]

She wasn't the one who had gone to the police, it were her sorority sisters that did...

[siss]

This always boiled down to two people making bad decisions while drinking. Something that happens almost every night in any given bar in america. The difference was that Ben was Big Ben Roethlisberger, Quarterback for the Steelers. And she was little innocent Georgia peach.

Ben is responsible for his descisions and she is for hers, the difference is that Ben had to answer to Roger Goodell and the rotten peach had to answer to her soroity counsel and mommy and daddy.

[Craic]

I don't even know if that's a given. The girl was 3 times over the legal limit as per her B.A.C. She may have actually been talked into believing a reality that wasn't factual. Seriously at that level of intoxication her view of reality could very well have been altered or dimmed.

Now of course some would say that her level of inebriation makes Ben guilty of a crime due to her diminished capacity. But I disagree. Unless Ben slipped her a roofie her state of sobriety is her own responsibility. Again she was 20 not 15. Personally I don't think there's a whole lot of difference in the maturity level of a 28 year old man and a 20 year old woman, but I suppose that's debatable. Regardless at 20 years old you're responsible for your own actions. I think her excessive drinking left her vulnerable to being put into a situation she came to regret after the fact.

Truthfully at that age though drinking I put myself in a few situations that I would later regret. Difference possibly being that I didn't defer blame on other's to explain away my regrettable actions after the fact.

There's no doubt alcohol is a bad mix with this kind of situation, and your first paragraph, you bring up another possibility that she very well could have been a victim, of her own sorority sisters. I don't discount that either - though I would say it's less likely than either of the other two options.

While I understand what you're saying about diminished capacity and alcohol, the laws on that issue are disagreeing with you more and more. I also think, and yes, this is very much a personal judgement, that it is a moral issue. Anyone who would take advantage of a woman who was drunk, well, let's just say I have a canister under my kitchen sink for them. I can't fathom that kind of reasoning - and I have been there myself and had to make that decisions (years before I was ever a pastor, mind you!)

And as for your last sentence . . . the fact that you put "possibly" in it, makes all the difference IMO. I do agree with you that personal responsibility must be upheld and if I put myself in a bad positions, I must take responsibility for it. However, that also doesn't excuse the responsibility the other party has. In the case of Ben, regardless of anything else, it was his responsibility to not provide alcohol to someone under-age. If she even looked under-age for drinking, it's his responsibility to stop her from drinking alcohol that he's bought.

She has her own responsibility to deal with - but if... IF, a forced sexual act happened, I don't care the situation, it is not the victim's fault. There may have been things that could be done differently, but fault? No.


Outside of all of this, I think my assessment of what really happened in both situations bear out with the way Ben has changed . . . he had no intention of pressuring a woman to do something against her will, but he had no idea that the way he was coming off, was causing at least two women to feel like they had to. Why do I think that's what really happened (Don't know, just my thoughts), because as you said, Zu, true rapists don't change their stripes.

All that said - thank god we now have two offseasons without Ben in the news for something negative.

(I Swear, if I wake up tomorrow and read something....!)

[Count Steeler]

In general, my problem with accusations are that they are usually front page news, however, the retraction or proof of innocence is 1/3 the size and buried in the back pages.

I do not know the TRUTH of either case. However, Ben is forever tarnished and presumed guilty in the public eye. "He paid his way out of the charges" is the most common sentiment that I hear. It is unfortunate that the perception of guilt will never go away and I sure hope these incidents don't keep him out of Canton.

[zulater]

In general, my problem with accusations are that they are usually front page news, however, the retraction or proof of innocence is 1/3 the size and buried in the back pages.

I do not know the TRUTH of either case. However, Ben is forever tarnished and presumed guilty in the public eye. "He paid his way out of the charges" is the most common sentiment that I hear. It is unfortunate that the perception of guilt will never go away and I sure hope these incidents don't keep him out of Canton.

That's a very good point and a very real possibility unfortunately. Ben wont get in unless he has slam dunk credentials plus.

And Count you if you wouldn't mind, would you please change the title of the thread to "Why Big Ben's owed a presumption of innocence." Or something along those lines, maybe you can come up with something better?

After giving it more thought Preacher's right, the original title is too provocative. If by some chance accuser 2 really believes she was assaulted then this title is unfair.

Later I'll get to my theory how it could be possible that both parties believe themselves truthful and yet both be wrong on some level.

Ok admittedly it's sound's far fetched, but I'm going to give it a try sometime tomorrow. :lol:

[fansince'76]

And Count you if you wouldn't mind, would you please change the title of the thread to "Why Big Ben's owed a presumption of innocence." Or something along those lines, maybe you can come up with something better?

Done. :thumbsup:

[zulater]

Done. :thumbsup:

Thanks!

[GodfatherofSoul]

I was a big CourTV geek back in the day. The big thing I took away from it is the media loves to manufacture stories; especially crimes of rape and murder. Then, when they've sold out telling you someone did something they've invested too much credibility to back off. Gary Condit, The Ramseys, Kobe Bryant, even Robert Blake were all innocent people railroaded by the press. If you can, look up that CNN interview on Piers Morgan with Robert Blake. As nutty as Blake is, he was like a laser every time Morgan tried to play one of those media gimmicks of implying a guilt:

* In two clips of Blake's most famous role, repeatedly said he played a "murderer."
* Made a comment like "let's see if I can get at the truth here" implying that his official story was a lie.

When you watch a lot of news, you start to pick up the little word games. It's a lot like politicians; the ability to make you think a lie by telling you the truth. Goodell did it, too. Ben was officially being punished for serving drinks to an underage girl (nevermind her fake ID). But, Goodell played up to public perception by vaguely talking about wrong doing and bad behavior to allow the public to think he was laying down the law where the law wouldn't. So, the general public filled in the blanks. "OK, he was accused of rape, then the league made a suspension agreement, and he accepted the terms of the suspension, so he must be guilty!"

[steelerdude15]

I was a big CourTV geek back in the day. The big thing I took away from it is the media loves to manufacture stories; especially crimes of rape and murder. Then, when they've sold out telling you someone did something they've invested too much credibility to back off. Gary Condit, The Ramseys, Kobe Bryant, even Robert Blake were all innocent people railroaded by the press. If you can, look up that CNN interview on Piers Morgan with Robert Blake. As nutty as Blake is, he was like a laser every time Morgan tried to play one of those media gimmicks of implying a guilt:

* In two clips of Blake's most famous role, repeatedly said he played a "murderer."
* Made a comment like "let's see if I can get at the truth here" implying that his official story was a lie.

When you watch a lot of news, you start to pick up the little word games. It's a lot like politicians; the ability to make you think a lie by telling you the truth. Goodell did it, too. Ben was officially being punished for serving drinks to an underage girl (nevermind her fake ID). But, Goodell played up to public perception by vaguely talking about wrong doing and bad behavior to allow the public to think he was laying down the law where the law wouldn't. So, the general public filled in the blanks. "OK, he was accused of rape, then the league made a suspension agreement, and he accepted the terms of the suspension, so he must be guilty!"

Yup, this is all true. Let's not forget that people who think he's guilty refuse to educate themselves about this accusation by looking at the police report. It's annoying.

[silver & black]

Don't take this the wrong way but, how concerned about Ben's innocence/guilt would you all be if he were the QB for any team other than the Steelers?

[siss]

I dispise the very ground that Kobe Bryant walks on. I think he is an prick. However, I don't beleive he is a rapist. So speaking for myself, I would be concerned with his guilt or innocence because he is a public figure.

[steelerdude15]

Don't take this the wrong way but, how concerned about Ben's innocence/guilt would you all be if he were the QB for any team other than the Steelers?

Honestly, I wouldn't take it as serious. However it is important that if someone is innocent, but seen as guilty, there name should be cleared.

[Count Steeler]

Don't take this the wrong way but, how concerned about Ben's innocence/guilt would you all be if he were the QB for any team other than the Steelers?

Did you give a shit about Palmer before he was traded to the Raiders?

If Ben was not a Steeler, it would be up to the other team's fans to sort it out. We may take a passing interest, and we would probably succumb to the same media bias and declare him a rapist without exercising some care and research.

[silver & black]

I don't give a shit about Carson Palmer now that he is a Raider. The extent of my "give a shit" for Palmer is that he plays well (I'm not holding my breath), nothing more. He's just another pro athlete that happens to play for my team.

I guess I just don't get why this is so personal for a lot of you. Ben is a very good QB..... I'd love to have him on my team. That's it. I don't know him and I will never be friends with him or have any kind of relationship with him at all.... other than rooting for him because he plays for my team (if I was a Steelers fan). Other than that, he's nothing to me. No need to take it personally. I really wouldn't give two shits what anyone said or thought about him. As long as he kicks ass on the field and wins games, which he does, I'd be perfectly happy let the powers that be deal with the rest, and go on about my days without any worry over it. Just my .02 on it. No offense meant to anyone in this thread.

[steelerdude15]

I don't give a shit about Carson Palmer now that he is a Raider. The extent of my "give a shit" for Palmer is that he plays well (I'm not holding my breath), nothing more. He's just another pro athlete that happens to play for my team.

I guess I just don't get why this is so personal for a lot of you. Ben is a very good QB..... I'd love to have him on my team. That's it. I don't know him and I will never be friends with him or have any kind of relationship with him at all.... other than rooting for him because he plays for my team (if I was a Steelers fan). Other than that, he's nothing to me. No need to take it personally. I really wouldn't give two shits what anyone said or thought about him. As long as he kicks ass on the field and wins games, which he does, I'd be perfectly happy let the powers that be deal with the rest, and go on about my days without any worry over it. Just my .02 on it. No offense meant to anyone in this thread.

You're all good. I understand what you mean. I guess you can say that for some of us Steelers fans, we take it too seriously. However, stated in my previous posts, I studied Poli Sci and it pains me to see someone who is innocent considered guilty by people who don't know anything about the law.

[Craic]

You're all good. I understand what you mean. I guess you can say that for some of us Steelers fans, we take it too seriously. However, stated in my previous posts, I studied Poli Sci and it pains me to see someone who is innocent considered guilty by people who don't know anything about the law.

But that statement there is just as much based on facts not in evidence as those who say he is guilty.

"Who is innocent" is a factual statement that cannot be made with validity.
"Whom I think is innocent" or "I believe to be innocent based on the what I have read" are opinion (or learned opinion) statements which are very valid.

The minute the charge is made, the factual "is innocent" is removed from the table," except in the most extreme circumstances (like Jerome Bettis's case, where they got the security camera tape). Even then, in this day and age, those things can be manipulated.

Where does that leave us? It leaves us with the (hopeful) understanding that it is more important than EVER to steer clear of any kind of trouble. They're multi-million dollar athletes for a few years, put the fun and stupidity on hold until the career is over.

Ironically, this is the one area where I have somewhat of an idea what Ben and the other athletes go through, because churches and pastors are almost as much targets, for a multitude of different reasons I won't go into now.

[43Hitman]

I don't give a shit about Carson Palmer now that he is a Raider. The extent of my "give a shit" for Palmer is that he plays well (I'm not holding my breath), nothing more. He's just another pro athlete that happens to play for my team.

I guess I just don't get why this is so personal for a lot of you. Ben is a very good QB..... I'd love to have him on my team. That's it. I don't know him and I will never be friends with him or have any kind of relationship with him at all.... other than rooting for him because he plays for my team (if I was a Steelers fan). Other than that, he's nothing to me. No need to take it personally. I really wouldn't give two shits what anyone said or thought about him. As long as he kicks ass on the field and wins games, which he does, I'd be perfectly happy let the powers that be deal with the rest, and go on about my days without any worry over it. Just my .02 on it. No offense meant to anyone in this thread.

This is how I feel. I have no control over the situation, therefore I"ll let the league deal with it. I just hope he kicks ass each weekend.

[86WARD]

That's a good question. Personally, I would never step foot in Tahoe or Milledgeville again if I were in his shoes.

Agree...stay the fuck away!!!

[fansince'76]

I don't give a shit about Carson Palmer now that he is a Raider.

:chuckle:

[steelerdude15]

But that statement there is just as much based on facts not in evidence as those who say he is guilty.

"Who is innocent" is a factual statement that cannot be made with validity.
"Whom I think is innocent" or "I believe to be innocent based on the what I have read" are opinion (or learned opinion) statements which are very valid.

The minute the charge is made, the factual "is innocent" is removed from the table," except in the most extreme circumstances (like Jerome Bettis's case, where they got the security camera tape). Even then, in this day and age, those things can be manipulated.

Where does that leave us? It leaves us with the (hopeful) understanding that it is more important than EVER to steer clear of any kind of trouble. They're multi-million dollar athletes for a few years, put the fun and stupidity on hold until the career is over.

Ironically, this is the one area where I have somewhat of an idea what Ben and the other athletes go through, because churches and pastors are almost as much targets, for a multitude of different reasons I won't go into now.
Well, I guess you can say its a belief that he's innocent and I'll always have this belief unless someone comes out and states their side of the story.

[suitanim]

I just want to go back to Chidi's early post about Goodell being "smarter than us".

I think Tomlin is smarter than me.
I think LeBeau is smarter than me.
I think Arians is smarter than me.
I think Rooney is smarter than me.

In fact, I think all of them are smarter when it comes to football than anyone and everyone on this board.

I do not think Roger Goodell is smarter than me.

I think he's a privileged "Senator's Son" who is a political correctness addict. ANYONE who thinks it's okay to fine people for hits that aren't even illegal and don't draw a flag is, quite frankly, mentally retarded.

He is single-handedly destroying the game I love. I think Pete Rozelle rolls over in his grave every single Sunday that this fucktard is in office.

Anyways, that's all I had to say...back to all the other drama and such...

[steelerdude15]

I just want to go back to Chidi's early post about Goodell being "smarter than us".

I think Tomlin is smarter than me.
I think LeBeau is smarter than me.
I think Arians is smarter than me.
I think Rooney is smarter than me.

In fact, I think all of them are smarter when it comes to football than anyone and everyone on this board.

I do not think Roger Goodell is smarter than me.

I think he's a privileged "Senator's Son" who is a political correctness addict. ANYONE who thinks it's okay to fine people for hits that aren't even illegal and don't draw a flag is, quite frankly, mentally retarded.

He is single-handedly destroying the game I love. I think Pete Rozelle rolls over in his grave every single Sunday that this fucktard is in office.

Anyways, that's all I had to say...back to all the other drama and such...

What the hell does this have to do with this thread? This has nothing to do with our personal feelings about Ben. I honestly supported the suspension and felt it helped him become the person he is today. He needed a wake up call for the way he treated people before the accusations and then the accusations.

[suitanim]

What the hell does this have to do with this thread? This has nothing to do with our personal feelings about Ben. I honestly supported the suspension and felt it helped him become the person he is today. He needed a wake up call for the way he treated people before the accusations and then the accusations.

Nothing, I guess.....except....Oh, wait. Pretty much the WHOLE ORIGINAL POST was about Roger Goodell and his rush to judgment!

I could actually say that, sonce this thread is MOSTLY about Ben being found guilty by Goodell before trial (even that doesn't fit, since there were not even charges brought), what the Hell does my post NOT have to do with this thread, since people's personal feelings have little or nothing to do with why he was suspended in the first place.

[GodfatherofSoul]

What the hell does this have to do with this thread? This has nothing to do with our personal feelings about Ben. I honestly supported the suspension and felt it helped him become the person he is today. He needed a wake up call for the way he treated people before the accusations and then the accusations.

Being falsely accused of rape and suspended for 4 games isn't a proportional response to being arrogant.

[Craic]

Being XXXXXX accused of rape and suspended for 4 games isn't a proportional response to being arrogant.

Fixed it for you. He wasn't falsely accused - he wasn't not falsely accused. He was simply accused of rape, unless you have proof that it was false allegations.

The knife cuts both ways, for everyone here who demands that Ben gets a presumption of innocence, that presumption also extends to the young woman involved. If it doesn't, then the want for presumption of innocence is not based on intellectual honesty, but on bias for laundry.

Personally, I think being suspended for four games for being so immature that you leave yourself open to two rape charges within a year's period is a perfectly proportional response.

[GodfatherofSoul]

Fixed it for you. He wasn't falsely accused - he wasn't not falsely accused. He was simply accused of rape, unless you have proof that it was false allegations.

The knife cuts both ways, for everyone here who demands that Ben gets a presumption of innocence, that presumption also extends to the young woman involved. If it doesn't, then the want for presumption of innocence is not based on intellectual honesty, but on bias for laundry.

Personally, I think being suspended for four games for being so immature that you leave yourself open to two rape charges within a year's period is a perfectly proportional response.

I accuse you of fucking sheep. I have no evidence to support my statement, but if there is equivalence in proving a negative and proving a positive, then you stand accused of being a sheep fucker.

[Craic]

I accuse you of fucking sheep. I have no evidence to support my statement, but if there is equivalence in proving a negative and proving a positive, then you stand accused of being a sheep fucker.

Yes, I do stand accused, and that is an accusation, neither proved nor disproved. I'm not sure of your point.

[vasteeler]

I accuse you of fucking sheep. I have no evidence to support my statement, but if there is equivalence in proving a negative and proving a positive, then you stand accused of being a sheep fucker.


i also accuse him of screwing sheep. thats two allegations...........must be guilty

[vader29]

All of this sheep fucking talk reminds me of the scene from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. :chuckle:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jJh-B4KWxU

[Craic]

i also accuse him of screwing sheep. thats two allegations...........must be guilty

And that becomes the logical fallacy. Now, if YOU were the sheepherder, and it was documented that I was actually in the pasture where your sheep were grazing, then there would be some credibility to your allegation. However, even with credibility, they are still . . . just allegations.

[zulater]

Fixed it for you. He wasn't falsely accused - he wasn't not falsely accused. He was simply accused of rape, unless you have proof that it was false allegations.

The knife cuts both ways, for everyone here who demands that Ben gets a presumption of innocence, that presumption also extends to the young woman involved. If it doesn't, then the want for presumption of innocence is not based on intellectual honesty, but on bias for laundry.


Actually it doesn't. Or at least for me it doesn't. When the young lady stopped cooperating with investigating authorities, particularly so early in the process, it put up a great big red flag for me. To me that fact alone makes it fair for someone not to afford her a presumption of truthfulness in her allegations.

I know you're stance on this. But to me this was an exceptional circumstance and the young lady had no legitimate reason to give up her case so easily if she were in fact truly assaulted . This wasn't some young woman in "the hood" who's life would have been in jeopardy from her accused assailant or his friends if she took the stand. Yeah I understand that continuing on with the case may have caused some hardships, but really! Giving it up that easily in a case where your were in no physical jeopardy doesn't strike you as just a little big odd?

For the sake of argument, say she was raped. So if we're to presume that, we'd also have to presume that she would believe that the previous allegation against Ben was true as well. So here we are dealing with a multiple rapist, and she simply gives up her claim just like that? Right! :coffee:

What happened between her and Ben may have left her feeling cheap and perhaps even violated in a sense. But imo she wasn't raped, and she damn well knew it, and that's why she never agreed to further cooperate with the investigation.

[steelerdude15]

Nothing, I guess.....except....Oh, wait. Pretty much the WHOLE ORIGINAL POST was about Roger Goodell and his rush to judgment!

I could actually say that, sonce this thread is MOSTLY about Ben being found guilty by Goodell before trial (even that doesn't fit, since there were not even charges brought), what the Hell does my post NOT have to do with this thread, since people's personal feelings have little or nothing to do with why he was suspended in the first place.

First off, in that post I meant to say Goodell, not Ben when I said: "This has nothing to do with our personal feelings about Ben." It was supposed to read "This has nothing to do with our personal feelings about Goodell." Sorry for the miscommunication.

Second, the original post has a total of what, two sentences on his punishment and mostly concentrates on the accuser and the facts of the accusation if I'm not mistaken?

Third, okay so he was suspended. I honestly don't have problem with him getting suspended. He needed to be knocked back down to Earth and the suspension helped with that. He needed to have football taken away from him. Not only has he been accused a few times, but he also treated fans and people poorly before this happened. My problem with the way Goodell handles the suspension of players is how inconsistent he is with it.

[steelerdude15]

Actually it doesn't. Or at least for me it doesn't. When the young lady stopped cooperating with investigating authorities, particularly so early in the process, it put up a great big red flag for me. To me that fact alone makes it fair for someone not to afford her a presumption of truthfulness in her allegations.

I know you're stance on this. But to me this was an exceptional circumstance and the young lady had no legitimate reason to give up her case so easily if she were in fact truly assaulted . This wasn't some young woman in "the hood" who's life would have been in jeopardy from her accused assailant or his friends if she took the stand. Yeah I understand that continuing on with the case may have caused some hardships, but really! Giving it up that easily in a case where your were in no physical jeopardy doesn't strike you as just a little big odd?

For the sake of argument, say she was raped. So if we're to presume that, we'd also have to presume that she would believe that the previous allegation against Ben was true as well. So here we are dealing with a multiple rapist, and she simply gives up her claim just like that? Right! :coffee:

What happened between her and Ben may have left her feeling cheap and perhaps even violated in a sense. But imo she wasn't raped, and she damn well knew it, and that's why she never agreed to further cooperate with the investigation.

Heck, her lawyer could have advised her not to carry on with it. It's hard to say.

[zulater]

Heck, her lawyer could have advised her not to carry on with it. It's hard to say.

Regardless, the lawyer works for the client, not vice-versa. Put it this way, were I criminally offended in a violent way there's no way in hell I'm not going to the mats to see to it that the person who assaulted me loses their freedom. I don't know how you'd live with yourself if you let that sort of crime go unpunished and then found out that the perp victimized someone else later.

[zulater]

Here's my theory as to what went on that night.

Let's start at the beginning. Ben had a house down there that he relaxed in during the offseason. The season before he had all his o-lineman down there to jet ski and such. The day before the night of infamy he entertained Jerome Bettis along with the rest of his group of friends.

Speaking of which.

To the best of my knowledge no one among Ben's entourage had a criminal record.

Besides teammate Willie Colon the rest of his group were mostly middle class and upper middle class guys who Ben got to know through the years.

In other words there were no thugs. This wasn't a Pac Man Jones posse looking to score weed ( or worse) and make it rain in strip clubs.

Anyway we come to Ben's birthday. The decide to go on a bar crawl to the nearest little town, which I suppose can be categorized as a college town. Acting responsibly they rent a van along with a driver to ferry them about for the night. No DUI coming out of this party.

Now I'm going to spare some of the boring details about how they met up with accuser #2's group at one bar, then met up with them again later at a different establishment. How accuser 2 was already well lit before she ever met up with Ben from doing jello shots with her sorority sister's earlier in the night, and how she came to be drinking at various clubs on a phony I.D, how she invited Ben back to her sorority house to party ( which Ben reportedly answered with a resounding "hell no", not going to fall into that trap) .. And how accuser 2's one friend ( who later reportedly drove the charges) was kicked out of the VIP area by Ben's party because she vocalized her displeasure with Ben and reportedly made some reference to the civil case Ben was facing in Tahoe. Apparently she more or less called him out as a rapist. Funny enough, she was the one doing most of the talking when the initial allegation was made. More on that later.

Meanwhile back to our party of dudes. As stated before these guys aren't criminals, but they're dudes. And as most of us know when dudes get drunk they can get obnoxious and things can go off in a weird direction. So what I think happened is that our boy's in question here decided at some point that they were going to get their alpha male ( Ben) laid for his birthday. And they felt as if they found the perfect girl to carry out their plan in what would become accuser 2. From their perspective she was clearly attracted to Ben, or least his celebrity. And from her DTF name tag and probably things she was saying they felt as if she were perfectly willing. And at the time they were most likely right. So basically what happens is the party degrades to a virtual bachelor party scenario, and little miss DTF is swept up in the moment, along with the dudes and Ben himself.

In other words everyone feels compelled to play up to their role and gets swept away in the wave. Though by nature no one is acting out consistent to their true character. In my opinion in the moment everything took on a bit of a surreal quality. As if everyone fell into a role in a badly scripted play.

The dudes were providing for their leader. The girl was enjoying being the center of attention. And Ben most likely felt compelled to carry through with what his "boys" had in mind for him. Even though he quite likely wasn't that attracted to her.

According to virtually every non sorority sister witness who saw accuser 2 being escorted to "service" Ben, she went quite willing. Now this girl wasn't a virgin, so I think even in her inebriated state she knew what was coming, and at the moment was good with it. In other words she was DTF.

Now here's where things derail....

[zulater]

One final point of contention before I offer a theory as to what might have led to the rape allegations.

The sorority sisters, the accuser, and of course the press, have tried to paint a picture of Ben's entourage dragging the accuser to the bath room against her will. Besides the accuser and her sorority sisters, no one else in the club supported this version of events. And to some extent that's why charges were never filed by the D.A. ( in other words once caught in a probable lie on one element of events...)By the accuser's and sorority sisters account Ben's entourage could have been charged with felony kidnapping and false imprisonment. But as no one else in a crowded night club of people saw any resistance on the accusers part, even restrained resistance no charges were filed much to D.A. Bright's consternation.

Now point of contention 2, or perhaps 1-2. The entourage has been portrayed as guarding the door to keep the accuser in against her will. Again not one of these people have a criminal record. And we're to presume that they'd partake in felony imprisonment in order to aid and abet a rape? Not likely.

As a guy who's done some stupid things, and been out with "dudes" on dudes night out,; a much more likely scenario was that whoever was watching the door was doing so in an effort to insure the couples privacy. To guard against an accidental walk in by a curiosity seeker who may have seen Ben wander back to that area.
They stood guard to keep others out, not to keep anyone in against their will.

[steelerdude15]

Regardless, the lawyer works for the client, not vice-versa. Put it this way, were I criminally offended in a violent way there's no way in hell I'm not going to the mats to see to it that the person who assaulted me loses their freedom. I don't know how you'd live with yourself if you let that sort of crime go unpunished and then found out that the perp victimized someone else later.

Two things, first: Yes lawyers work for their clients, but there are many times when the lawyer advises their client what to say and do. Second, there are times when victims are too scared to go after their "suspect" and won't do anything about it. There could be a million reasons why a victim wouldn't go after their "suspect."

[steelerdude15]

Here's my theory as to what went on that night.

Let's start at the beginning. Ben had a house down there that he relaxed in during the offseason. The season before he had all his o-lineman down there to jet ski and such. The day before the night of infamy he entertained Jerome Bettis along with the rest of his group of friends.

Speaking of which.

To the best of my knowledge no one among Ben's entourage had a criminal record.

Besides teammate Willie Colon the rest of his group were mostly middle class and upper middle class guys who Ben got to know through the years.

In other words there were no thugs. This wasn't a Pac Man Jones posse looking to score weed ( or worse) and make it rain in strip clubs.

Anyway we come to Ben's birthday. The decide to go on a bar crawl to the nearest little town, which I suppose can be categorized as a college town. Acting responsibly they rent a van along with a driver to ferry them about for the night. No DUI coming out of this party.

Now I'm going to spare some of the boring details about how they met up with accuser #2's group at one bar, then met up with them again later at a different establishment. How accuser 2 was already well lit before she ever met up with Ben from doing jello shots with her sorority sister's earlier in the night, and how she came to be drinking at various clubs on a phony I.D, how she invited Ben back to her sorority house to party ( which Ben reportedly answered with a resounding "hell no", not going to fall into that trap) .. And how accuser 2's one friend ( who later reportedly drove the charges) was kicked out of the VIP area by Ben's party because she vocalized her displeasure with Ben and reportedly made some reference to the civil case Ben was facing in Tahoe. Apparently she more or less called him out as a rapist. Funny enough, she was the one doing most of the talking when the initial allegation was made. More on that later.

Meanwhile back to our party of dudes. As stated before these guys aren't criminals, but they're dudes. And as most of us know when dudes get drunk they can get obnoxious and things can go off in a weird direction. So what I think happened is that our boy's in question here decided at some point that they were going to get their alpha male ( Ben) laid for his birthday. And they felt as if they found the perfect girl to carry out their plan in what would become accuser 2. From their perspective she was clearly attracted to Ben, or least his celebrity. And from her DTF name tag and probably things she was saying they felt as if she were perfectly willing. And at the time they were most likely right. So basically what happens is the party degrades to a virtual bachelor party scenario, and little miss DTF is swept up in the moment, along with the dudes and Ben himself.

In other words everyone feels compelled to play up to their role and gets swept away in the wave. Though by nature no one is acting out consistent to their true character. In my opinion in the moment everything took on a bit of a surreal quality. As if everyone fell into a role in a badly scripted play.

The dudes were providing for their leader. The girl was enjoying being the center of attention. And Ben most likely felt compelled to carry through with what his "boys" had in mind for him. Even though he quite likely wasn't that attracted to her.

According to virtually every non sorority sister witness who saw accuser 2 being escorted to "service" Ben, she went quite willing. Now this girl wasn't a virgin, so I think even in her inebriated state she knew what was coming, and at the moment was good with it. In other words she was DTF.

Now here's where things derail....

Do you have a legitimate source for this? If you do, I would like to see it.

[steelerdude15]

One final point of contention before I offer a theory as to what might have led to the rape allegations.

The sorority sisters, the accuser, and of course the press, have tried to paint a picture of Ben's entourage dragging the accuser to the bath room against her will. Besides the accuser and her sorority sisters, no one else in the club supported this version of events. And to some extent that's why charges were never filed by the D.A. ( in other words once caught in a probable lie on one element of events...)By the accuser's and sorority sisters account Ben's entourage could have been charged with felony kidnapping and false imprisonment. But as no one else in a crowded night club of people saw any resistance on the accusers part, even restrained resistance no charges were filed much to D.A. Bright's consternation.

Now point of contention 2, or perhaps 1-2. The entourage has been portrayed as guarding the door to keep the accuser in against her will. Again not one of these people have a criminal record. And we're to presume that they'd partake in felony imprisonment in order to aid and abet a rape? Not likely.

As a guy who's done some stupid things, and been out with "dudes" on dudes night out,; a much more likely scenario was that whoever was watching the door was doing so in an effort to insure the couples privacy. To guard against an accidental walk in by a curiosity seeker who may have seen Ben wander back to that area.
They stood guard to keep others out, not to keep anyone in against their will.

To add on to this, both his guards that were there that night were police officers from PA. I highly doubt they would have allowed such a thing to happen.

[Craic]

One final point of contention before I offer a theory as to what might have led to the rape allegations.

The sorority sisters, the accuser, and of course the press, have tried to paint a picture of Ben's entourage dragging the accuser to the bath room against her will. Besides the accuser and her sorority sisters, no one else in the club supported this version of events. And to some extent that's why charges were never filed by the D.A. ( in other words once caught in a probable lie on one element of events...)By the accuser's and sorority sisters account Ben's entourage could have been charged with felony kidnapping and false imprisonment. But as no one else in a crowded night club of people saw any resistance on the accusers part, even restrained resistance no charges were filed much to D.A. Bright's consternation.

Now point of contention 2, or perhaps 1-2. The entourage has been portrayed as guarding the door to keep the accuser in against her will. Again not one of these people have a criminal record. And we're to presume that they'd partake in felony imprisonment in order to aid and abet a rape? Not likely.

As a guy who's done some stupid things, and been out with "dudes" on dudes night out,; a much more likely scenario was that whoever was watching the door was doing so in an effort to insure the couples privacy. To guard against an accidental walk in by a curiosity seeker who may have seen Ben wander back to that area.
They stood guard to keep others out, not to keep anyone in against their will.

Which correlates to not let anyone else in to help her, which is what I believe the original argument was. That is, they very well may have thought it was consensual as well. Heck, it may have been until they got into the bathroom and then she may have changed her mind.

Once again, that's why all this pondering and writing of what must have and/or couldn't have happened... ends up being nothing more than opinion which doesn't prove anything.

[steeldawg]

I just want to go back to Chidi's early post about Goodell being "smarter than us".

I think Tomlin is smarter than me.
I think LeBeau is smarter than me.
I think Arians is smarter than me.
I think Rooney is smarter than me.

In fact, I think all of them are smarter when it comes to football than anyone and everyone on this board.

I do not think Roger Goodell is smarter than me.

I think he's a privileged "Senator's Son" who is a political correctness addict. ANYONE who thinks it's okay to fine people for hits that aren't even illegal and don't draw a flag is, quite frankly, mentally retarded.

He is single-handedly destroying the game I love. I think Pete Rozelle rolls over in his grave every single Sunday that this fucktard is in office.

Anyways, that's all I had to say...back to all the other drama and such...

I think goodell is smarter than you.

[siss]

Fixed it for you. He wasn't falsely accused - he wasn't not falsely accused. He was simply accused of rape, unless you have proof that it was false allegations.

The knife cuts both ways, for everyone here who demands that Ben gets a presumption of innocence, that presumption also extends to the young woman involved. If it doesn't, then the want for presumption of innocence is not based on intellectual honesty, but on bias for laundry.

Personally, I think being suspended for four games for being so immature that you leave yourself open to two rape charges within a year's period is a perfectly proportional response.

OMG how many times do we need to go over this HE WAS NEVER FORMALLY CHARGED WITH ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was civil the first time and there was NOT EVEN PROBABLE CAUSE THE SECo\OND TIME!

Do I need to go over probable cause AGAIN?

[siss]

Which correlates to not let anyone else in to help her, which is what I believe the original argument was. That is, they very well may have thought it was consensual as well. Heck, it may have been until they got into the bathroom and then she may have changed her mind.

Once again, that's why all this pondering and writing of what must have and/or couldn't have happened... ends up being nothing more than opinion which doesn't prove anything.
There were two entraces to the bathrooms, which the the bar tender told her friends about. If they really wanted to rescue their friend from Big Bad ben they could have.

[suitanim]

I think goodell is smarter than you.

I read your posts in the political forum.

I'm pretty sure a LOT of people on this board are smarter than you. A. LOT.

But you are still entitled to your opinion, informed or not.

As am I.

I stand by my post.

[suitanim]

Speaking of Goodell, why is it that he quickly suspended Ben for something he was never charged with, yet has basically done NOTHING to the TWENTY-SEVEN players who have been arrested this off-season?

[GodfatherofSoul]

Goodell responses are proportional to media interest; hence the label "PR whore."

[zulater]

Speaking of Goodell, why is it that he quickly suspended Ben for something he was never charged with, yet has basically done NOTHING to the TWENTY-SEVEN players who have been arrested this off-season?

I think there was a huge racial element to Ben's suspension. At the time virtually all the notorius transgressions Goodell had punished had been committed by black players. i.e. PacMan Jones, Mike Vick being most prominent among them. So here's allegations made against Ben and the press and various other societal elements jump on the; what's he going to do to a white guy? theme of the moment.

I'm convinced that if Ben were black once the D.A. decided not to pursue charges Goodell would have walked away from it and left any potential discipline to be meted out by the team. Which is what should have happened.

I realize any financial discipline handed out by the team could have been appealed by the union. But what the union couldn't appeal is the Steelers exercising the right to put Ben on the inactive list for as long as they wanted. Loss of playing time is more significant of a punishment than fines to most players.

[suitanim]

What percentage of players arrested in summer '12 are black? Anyone know?

[Count Steeler]

What percentage of players arrested in summer '12 are black? Anyone know?

You are labeled a racist for even thinking along those lines in this enlightened, ever better, hope and change environment. However, in the other thread that 86Ward started 32/33 = 96.9%

[zulater]

What percentage of players arrested in summer '12 are black? Anyone know?

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/forums/showthread.php/13647-2012-NFL-Offseason-Arrests

http://www.inflexwetrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/IFWT-NFL-arrest-record.jpg

Looking at the pictures here I see one white guy, two undetermined (no picture provided) and the rest appear to be black or Samoan.

[suitanim]

Maybe you are onto something. On top of everything else, Goodell is certainly very, very, very PC.

[suitanim]

You are labeled a racist for even thinking along those lines in this enlightened, ever better, hope and change environment. However, in the other thread that 86Ward started 32/33 = 96.9%

How could I be labeled a racist for simply observing the special treatment of minorities by others? Classic "Killing the messenger".

[zulater]

How could I be labeled a racist for simply observing the special treatment of minorities by others? Classic "Killing the messenger".

I think Count was being ironic.

[steelerdude15]

There were two entraces to the bathrooms, which the the bar tender told her friends about. If they really wanted to rescue their friend from Big Bad ben they could have.

Do you have legitimate source for this statement?

[steelerdude15]

Alright everyone, please stop making this into a race thing. He's suspended both black and white.

[zulater]

Alright everyone, please stop making this into a race thing. He's suspended both black and white.

I think Goodell made it into a race things. That's my opinion. There's no precedent in league history, before or since, where an uncharged/ unconvicted player was disciplined.

[suitanim]

Alright everyone, please stop making this into a race thing. He's suspended both black and white.

It's a legitimate point. The very reason why there is still so much racism, and reverse racism, is because every time someone brings it up honestly in a discussion, someone pops out of the woodwork and very PC'ly states that the topic is off-limits.

I think Zu's point has some merit. It's worth discussing. In order to NOT look racist, Goodell may have been motivated to make a scapegoat out of Ben, which is, of course, reverse-racism, which is just as bad.

[zulater]

Do you have legitimate source for this statement?

http://ludwig.squarespace.com/politics-journal/2010/4/15/the-media-lynching-of-ben-roethlisberger.html

It may be covered in here, without going over it I'm not sure. Worth reading nonetheless if you haven't before.

[fansince'76]

I think Goodell made it into a race things. That's my opinion. There's no precedent in league history, before or since, where an uncharged/ unconvicted player was disciplined.

I don't think there's really any question about it. IMO, he did it more to appease race-baiting idiots in the media like Jemele Hill and Jason Whitlock than anything else.

[zulater]

When the media received the investigation file in the Ben Roethlisberger case, it acted irresponsibly. It selectively reported allegations for which no probable cause to arrest existed. It gave the public a skewed understanding of the facts. There are plenty reasons to criticize Roethlisberger, but not for "rape." Here are the documented facts:

CHRONOLOGY:

1. The DA indicated that both parties were exchanging sexual comments toward each other (that he would not repeat in public, because of their graphic nature). He said, "it was a two-way street ... -- him to her, her to him -- [it was] of a sexual nature." (DA press conference, PART-4, at 7:35, http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBOClZNRzY]).

2. The accuser and her sorority sisters were wearing stickers that "had 'DTF' written on the bottom of the name tag ... [which] stood for 'down to fuck.'" (See Page 4 of 6 of police report, exhibit 16. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0415101roethlisberger15.html)

3. The accuser also said to Willie Colon, "You know my nickname?" -- and then answered by saying "DTF." When Colon asked what that meant, the accuser replied , "Down to fuck." (See Colon's police statement here: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0416103willie2.html)

4. The accuser "repeatedly attempted to get Roethlisberger's attention, including pinching him" ... and pestering Willie Colon to talk to Ben for them. (See Colon's police statement: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0416103willie2.html)

5. The accuser was heavily intoxicated. [numerous sources].

6. The accuser was led down a hall toward a bathroom. (DA News Conference, PART-1, at 3:10. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liHs6C7ajzg]).

7. There was a stool outside the bathroom. The club manager, Duncan, told police that he saw "a young lady sitting outside of the stool, talking to Ben." (Duncan's Statement is quoted by CNN here: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/16/roethlisberger.incident/index.html)

8. The accuser was sitting on the stool talking with Ben for a little while. Duncan says, "... at last glance the [accuser] was still sitting outside the bathroom talking to Ben. That was the last I noticed of the situation." (Duncan's Statement is quoted by CNN here: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/16/roethlisberger.incident/index.html)

9. The bathroom had cramped quarters -- less than 5 foot wide single-commode bathroom. (DA News Conference, PART-1 http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liHs6C7ajzg])

10. According to a police statement: "Roethlisberger explained to Aurila that nothing had happened and that Roethlisberger was in the back with a girl and they were "messing around." Roethlsberger then explained that the girl slipped and he helped her up and then came back out. Aurila stated that he took "messing around" to mean" kissing, whatever. ... Roethlisberger indicated to Aurila that the girl had slipped and that he had helped her up and once Roethlisberger had helped her up he told the girl that they were not going to continue. ... During the conversation, Aurila described Roethlisberger's demeanor as angry and shocked that this [the accusation] was happening." (Police report, pg. 5 of 7, http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0415101roethlisberger19.html)

11. The accuser had a "superficial laceration" in the genital area, described by DA [and medical authorities] as consistent with having sex. (Or slipping while having it?). (DA press conference, PART-1 at 3:50. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liHs6C7ajzg]).

12. THE SORORITY SISTERS STARTED THE INITIAL COMMOTION. They felt the accuser was too drunk to be fraternizing with Roethlisberger. So they acted based upon that judgment. The facts are:

(A) The sorority sisters complained to the club manager that Ben and accuser were together in the locked bathroom. (citation forthcoming)

(B) The sorority sisters are the ones who complained to police and said it was a "rape." From the DA conference: "The Sorority Sisters were doing the talking [making the accusation]." (See DA press conference, PART-2, starts 2:42 and key part at about 3:10 and 4:00: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaRGdYizw7g]) (See also, DA interview, PART-3, 10:20 http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PsdE_KudoY]).

(C) The officer at the scene was perturbed by the fact that the sisters were doing the talking. Post-Gazette: "The victim's friends got on Blash's Nerves because he kept asking them were they back there with her, and they said no. The victim's friends were trying to tell what was going on more than the victim was, and the victim could not answer Blash's questions."

13. THE ACCUSER HERSELF WAS UNCERTAIN ABOUT THE MATTER. When the officer on the spot said "I need to talk to the alleged victim, not [the sorority sisters]," he asked the accuser if Roethlisberger had raped her. She said:

(A). "No." (DA news conference; PART 2, starts 2:42, key point: about 4:10: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaRGdYizw7g])

(B) When asked if the two had sex, she said "well, I'm not sure." (DA interview, PART 2, starts 2:42, key point: about 4:20: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaRGdYizw7g]).
(Blash also said she seemed inebriated, incoherent, "nonchalant," and at times seemed to to want to tell someone that "y'all did whatever.")
[The above was Officer Blash's account when interviewed by a special officer on March 15th.. His earlier account when interviewed by a special officer on March 5th, one day after the incident, is quoted below. He says that: (a) Roethlisberger didn’t force himself on her, but kept asking; (b) she said she wasn’t raped, but kept saying “I don’t know if we should be doing this here.” See below:]


(C) “While Mr. Blash wasn't around, Officer Lopez interviewed the woman in a squad room at the station. … She told him something that officers found perplexing: the woman claimed that she and the 6-foot-5 Mr. Roethlisberger had sex while she was sitting on the toilet. He also said that, during the entire episode -- which the accuser alleged took 3 minutes (see below) -- that she never said "no." (She never even said, "I was scared to say no" or "I wanted to tell him to stop"). The quote is as follows:


(D) According to Officer Davidson, the accuser said back at the station house that "I don't think this is ok," (indicating equivocation) and "I should not have done this," (indicating regret after the fact). The officer's statement is below:


(E) The accuser gave a statement that night to police that said, "They met us at the Brick and called us a 'tease.' .... His body guards took him back to the rooms in 1 bathroom. I said, 'I don't know if this is a good idea,' and he said, "it's ok.' He had sex with me ... ." (See Police report: March 4th. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0415101roethlisberger3.html)

(F) At the hospital that night, she said "a boy kinda raped me." (DA press conference, PART-2 at 6:00. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaRGdYizw7g]).

13. THE ACCUSER'S NEXT-DAY STATEMENT OFFERED A CHANGED STORY. The next day, this is what the accuser said:

(A). "His bodyguard came and took my arm and said come with me, he escorted me into a side door/hallway, and sat me on a stool. He left and Ben came back with his penis out of his pants. I told him it wasn't OK, no, we don't need to do this and I proceeded to get up and try to leave. I went to the first door I saw, which happened to be a bathroom. He followed me into the bathroom and shut the door behind him. I still said no, this is not OK, and he then had sex with me. He said it was OK. He then left without saying anything." (See DA press conference, PART-2 5:25. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaRGdYizw7g]).(See also, CNN account of accuser's statement: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/16/roethlisberger.incident/?hpt=Sbin).

[Note several things. 1. This latest version of events suggested that Ben is commencing activities OUTSIDE the bathroom. This contradicts the eyewitness claims that: (a) she was seen talking with Ben at the stool outside the bathroom for a period of time (See bar manager's statement); and (b) that no evidence of sex outside the bathroom exists. No one in the VIP area of any entourage or any body guard saw anything like that. (See: DA CONFERENCE, PART-3, starting at 8:30. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PsdE_KudoY]).
Finally, note that this new version of events selectively fixes the accuser's earlier statements. It fixes the rape-denial and equivocation she expressed about the encounter while retaining other things as accurate (e.g., "he said it was okay."). In other words, what helps her is retained, and what doesn't is not.

14. THE ACCUSER BACKED OFF SOON AFTERWARD. Soon after giving the next-day statement, the accuser began frustrating police. She did the following:

(A) From the Post Gazette: The Georgia Bureau of Investigation had trouble contacting "both the accuser and her lawyer, who did not return numerous calls from the agency" ... "Special Agent Monica Ling, the lead investigator, tried to reach the accuser 'numerous times' over the weekend of the alleged assault without success. Lee Parks, the woman's lawyer, finally called on the evening of March 7. Agent Ling said she wanted to take swabs from inside the woman's cheeks. Agent Ling reported having trouble reaching Mr. Parks the next week," and was eventually told the accuser could not help at this time.

(B) On March 17th, through her attorney's letter, the accuser says she doesn't want to go forward with it.

(C) When investigators had met with the woman, they were told unequivocally that the accuser did not want to go forward with the case. (soruce: Post Gazette)

[One should note that the vast majority of civil plaintiffs would want criminal cases going on concurrently. Any lawyer will tell you that a civil plaintiff is helped by a criminal case going first. One must assume that the accuser's reluctance here indicates one of two things: (a) the civil matter was already on a quick course of settlement; or (b) depositions and other matters may have rendered the next-day's position problematic. It is true that media frenzy and privacy are good reasons not to pursue things. But is this true if you have been wronged and can receive a major damage award? Or is it true if you have a drunken encounter and regret it? How many people get raped by millionaires and don't want to pursue even a civil case? And how many want to pursue one without pursuing a criminal case (the former helps the latter)?].

13. Both the DA and the police believe not only that there was not enough proof to win their case, but that THERE WAS NOT EVEN PROBABLE CAUSE TO ARREST. Think about that. Law enforcement officials think that the sorority-girls version of events isn't even worthy of an arrest. (See DA News Conference, PART-1 12:00. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/index.html [also at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liHs6C7ajzg]).

Conclusion

Will anyone out there listen? People have every right to be disgusted with Roethlisberger for things like buying shots for girls, behaving like a "meathead," wanting a gigolo lifestyle and engaging in drunken, callous and risky encounters with strangers. But they DON'T have ANY right to be disgusted with body guards dragging people back to rooms, with sex against a person's will, with "she reported it quickly," and that, "he exposed himself and she ran away, accidentally to a bathroom."

The press is smearing Roethlisberger. Can we please make sure that, if we abuse him, it is for the FACTUAL THINGS and not a public lynching?

Some people have argued that drunken sex is, by definition, "rape." This isn't true. This confuses "consent" in law with "capacity." Consent is merely an act of volition (will); it doesn't require an intelligent choice. Having a drunken escapade that you later regret doesn't mean that you "didn't consent." If drunken sex was outlawed, both parties to the escapade could claim to be "raped," because any of the touchings that either person performed could be said to be "not consented to" (because of alcohol). So the issue is not that drunk people are forbidden from having sex; the issue is whether one of the drunken parties is being forced to have it, against his or her wishes AT THAT TIME.

Also, we can't be too patriarchal here. We can't apply what academics call a "gender construction." You have two people here being sexual with each other throughout the night and both are impairing their judgments with alcohol. The night ends with an encounter that appears to have been ambiguous and was regretted. That's what a prudent look at the facts shows. And it is perfectly permissible to criticize either Roethlisberger or anyone else for having an ambiguous encounter with a stranger when both he and the stranger were suffering from impaired judgments after a night of sexual flirting. But what is NOT okay is to lynch Roethlisberger and call him a "rapist," when the facts supporting that allegation are not even worthy enough for an accusation under the law (probable cause).

And what may be worse is the media showing only the accuser's day-after (second) accusation, and not its surrounding difficulties. I wonder how many in America know right now that the accusation began with sorority sisters who objected to a drunken encounter, not with the accuser herself? Or that, even in the hospital, the accuser could not say the matter was clearly against her wishes at the time. How many today on the A.M. talk radio take the accuser's second-day version as "the accusation" rather than as a significant derogation of what all the evidence that night suggested?

Here's my point. I have no problem with criticizing Roethlisberger for numerous things. I have no problem if the league goes after him just for having drunken, callous and reckless encounters with strangers. My only concern is that they go after him on the FACTS -- not on this yellow journalism stuff. Stop the witch hunt, please.


Regards and thanks.

Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq.

[zulater]

I don't think there's really any question about it. IMO, he did it more to appease race-baiting idiots in the media like Jemele Hill and Jason Whitlock than anything else.

Actually Whitlock and Jemele Hill have made supportive statements towards Ben at various times. But your overall point is right. But I think it was more driven by white members of the press such as Mike Lupica, etc..

[suitanim]

Remember, I am far, far from Ben's biggest supporter as to how he comports himself in his personal life. But I agree 100% here that this was a smear campaign from the start, and IT WAS LEGITIMIZED by Roger Goodell.

His role should have been to defend Ben first, suspend later if the facts warranted it. Instead, he used cherry-picked "facts" and reflexively knee-jerked and piled on the soiling of Ben's name.

In fact, I would almost guarantee you that of you ask 100 sports fans NOT FROM OR FANS OF PITTSBURGH, about 90 would tell you that Ben is a convicted rapist. All they'll remember is the suspension and the charge and their minds will fill in the rest with incorrect assumptions.

[steelerdude15]

http://ludwig.squarespace.com/politics-journal/2010/4/15/the-media-lynching-of-ben-roethlisberger.html

It may be covered in here, without going over it I'm not sure. Worth reading nonetheless if you haven't before.

This is the exact thing I posted earlier and I've read a few times. I wonder why I never saw what I asked about? :noidea:

[GodfatherofSoul]

Ben's treatment had zilch to do with race and everything to do with media management. I'm not talking in regard to the rape accusations, I mean as in career wise. Brett Favre got his whole Oxycontin ordeal swept under the table because he was a media manager, to the detriment of his teammates. Brett was willing to blow up his whole team and get a coach fired using targeted leaks just to get the heat off his own back for his subpar QBing. Ben didn't do the dance. And, if you're not doing the dance you'd better be a damned angel in the off season. Lots of celebs and politicians get stories buried because they play the media suckup game. Give them the quotes, call-backs, and interviews that makes their jobs easy and they don't go digging through your personal life for dirt. Look at how friggin' Hall of Fame Barry Sanders got treated on the way out the door. He didn't play the game.

I'm not sure where this Al Sharpton conspiracy comes from.

[zulater]

This is the exact thing I posted earlier and I've read a few times. I wonder why I never saw what I asked about? :noidea:

What's that?

[zulater]

Ben's treatment had zilch to do with race and everything to do with media management. I'm not talking in regard to the rape accusations, I mean as in career wise. Brett Favre got his whole Oxycontin ordeal swept under the table because he was a media manager, to the detriment of his teammates. Brett was willing to blow up his whole team and get a coach fired using targeted leaks just to get the heat off his own back for his subpar QBing. Ben didn't do the dance. And, if you're not doing the dance you'd better be a damned angel in the off season. Lots of celebs and politicians get stories buried because they play the media suckup game. Give them the quotes, call-backs, and interviews that makes their jobs easy and they don't go digging through your personal life for dirt. Look at how friggin' Hall of Fame Barry Sanders got treated on the way out the door. He didn't play the game.

I'm not sure where this Al Sharpton conspiracy comes from.

At the time there were questions being asked if Goodell was coming down too hard on African American players for discipline for off field actions.

So along comes Ben and his first incident. Quite correctly neither the league nor Steelers took any action against Ben. Now along comes the Georgia accusation. The press jumps all over it with both feet of course, non football related sites start asking if Ben will get a walk from the league because he's the right color.

No Al Sharpton conspiracy on my part. This was part of the national debate. No one was willing to allow for the facts to prove or disprove Ben's guilt or innocence. Punishment had to be meted out or Goodell was playing racial favorites according to many.


Sorry if this bothers you. But it happened nonetheless, and in my opinion very much influenced the course of Ben's punishment.

While not provable I also stand by the opinion that had Ben been black; Goodell and the national press would have happily exonerated him in full given the same set of circumstances.

[Count Steeler]

What's that?

2 doors to the washroom

[zulater]

2 doors to the washroom

I never made that an issue. That was Siss's point. Don't really know or care about the answer though as I really don't see the relevancy.

[zulater]

Actually Whitlock and Jemele Hill have made supportive statements towards Ben at various times. But your overall point is right. But I think it was more driven by white members of the press such as Mike Lupica, etc..

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/why-big-ben-really-deserved-the-suspension

Listening to the naive and dishonest media discussion about the latest sexual assault allegation leveled at Ben Roethlisberger, you'd think Usher (and maybe Rick Pitino) was the only other American who wants to make "love in this club."


And race-baiting simpletons wanted to keep a racial scorecard on how Goodell and the Steelers handled PacBen as opposed to Pacman Jones and kicked-to-the-curb Steelers receiver Santonio Holmes.

A lifetime ban for Big Ben wouldn't have cleaned up the stench of Donte Stallworth's DUI manslaughter, Michael Vick's Bad Newz Kennel, Plaxico Burress' gun conviction, Rae Carruth's baby-mama murder, Pacman's strip-club wilding ... should I carry on?

Now that we know the penalty, let's discuss PacBen in something resembling proper context. There is no doubt Roethlisberger is an idiot worthy of suspension. What I've yet to hear or read is a fair justification for why he deserved punishment.



When the Georgia police released the details of the notes it took during its investigation of Roethlisberger, the media cherry-picked and repeated the alleged "eyewitness" accounts as though they were as unimpeachable as a video replay.


According to the "witnesses," Roethlisberger's bodyguards dragged the accuser to the bathroom, blocked the entrance into the bathroom and Roethlisberger approached the accuser with his penis exposed.

Once these accounts were introduced as "evidence" into the court of public opinion, broadcasters and pundits had all the ammo they needed to convict Ben as "disgusting" and call for Goodell to take swift and hard action.

It was completely irresponsible. Statements made by drunken sorority girls are not facts. Statements made by sober sorority girls about an evening spent bar-hopping and drinking are not facts.

Late last week I received an e-mail from a former sorority president and current advisor to a sorority. She warned me that the media were being foolish for believing the allegations of drunken 20-somethings. She explained what she'd witnessed firsthand as a student and what she now deals with as an advisor.

Some young women use alcohol as an excuse to be sexually aggressive at fraternity houses and nightclubs and then quickly concoct a story of sexual assault when confronted by their disapproving peers. Most of these allegations never make it to police headquarters. The allegations are too sketchy and the accuser's immediate jury of peers reject them.

"I don't believe a bunch of hammered sorority girls in this situation," the former sorority president wrote. "I've seen too much bad behavior amongst them. It's all about having fun and then making sure you're not held accountable and your reputation is still good."

Big Ben's accuser was allegedly wearing a name tag that read DTF -- "down to f---." She engaged in a lewd and highly flirtatious conversation with Roethlisberger.

It's 2010 not 1910. Women vote, drive cars and knock boots at their own discretion. The popular R&B singer Usher makes songs targeted at women. His 2008 smash hit "Love in this Club" was most popular with women. Getting busy in the bathroom or getting a special "bottle service" at a VIP table are nowhere near as rare as joining the "mile high club."

If you read the police accounts, the accuser's sorority sisters drove this case. If Ben's bodyguards dragged the accuser to the bathroom, you could make the argument that her sorority sisters dragged her to the police.

Her initial story to the police was weak at best and made absolutely no sense at worst.

The case was so flimsy that Big Ben was never even arrested. Once she sobered up, the accuser didn't even cooperate with the police.

Let me repeat: PacBen is a freaking idiot who deserved to be suspended. Off the field, he thinks with the wrong head. In pursuit of a wham-bam, he's twice -- that we know of -- placed himself in a vulnerable position.

But the ugly truth is Ben isn't all that different from a lot of guys and girls who use alcohol as their aphrodisiac of choice. Any woman who has belonged to a prominent sorority has heard the lecture about safety rules to follow when entering a male fraternity house for a mixer/party.


We don't have a clue about whether the alleged bathroom sex between two drunken idiots was consensual. And we have even less knowledge about how Ben's "moral compass" compares to Herm's, Ben's peers, Goodell's or the broadcasters/pundits morally hyperventilating because Ben likes pretty young thangs.

What we know is Ben is clueless about how he should conduct himself given his position of responsibility.


These are some highlights of a Jason Whitlock column at the time.

As far as Jemele Hill I heard her on a podcast say that she's been around Ben since his incidents have passed and finds him to be pleasant to deal with and thinks he deserves the benefit of the doubt barring any future transgressions.

[steelerdude15]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/why-big-ben-really-deserved-the-suspension

Listening to the naive and dishonest media discussion about the latest sexual assault allegation leveled at Ben Roethlisberger, you'd think Usher (and maybe Rick Pitino) was the only other American who wants to make "love in this club."


And race-baiting simpletons wanted to keep a racial scorecard on how Goodell and the Steelers handled PacBen as opposed to Pacman Jones and kicked-to-the-curb Steelers receiver Santonio Holmes.

A lifetime ban for Big Ben wouldn't have cleaned up the stench of Donte Stallworth's DUI manslaughter, Michael Vick's Bad Newz Kennel, Plaxico Burress' gun conviction, Rae Carruth's baby-mama murder, Pacman's strip-club wilding ... should I carry on?

Now that we know the penalty, let's discuss PacBen in something resembling proper context. There is no doubt Roethlisberger is an idiot worthy of suspension. What I've yet to hear or read is a fair justification for why he deserved punishment.



When the Georgia police released the details of the notes it took during its investigation of Roethlisberger, the media cherry-picked and repeated the alleged "eyewitness" accounts as though they were as unimpeachable as a video replay.


According to the "witnesses," Roethlisberger's bodyguards dragged the accuser to the bathroom, blocked the entrance into the bathroom and Roethlisberger approached the accuser with his penis exposed.

Once these accounts were introduced as "evidence" into the court of public opinion, broadcasters and pundits had all the ammo they needed to convict Ben as "disgusting" and call for Goodell to take swift and hard action.

It was completely irresponsible. Statements made by drunken sorority girls are not facts. Statements made by sober sorority girls about an evening spent bar-hopping and drinking are not facts.

Late last week I received an e-mail from a former sorority president and current advisor to a sorority. She warned me that the media were being foolish for believing the allegations of drunken 20-somethings. She explained what she'd witnessed firsthand as a student and what she now deals with as an advisor.

Some young women use alcohol as an excuse to be sexually aggressive at fraternity houses and nightclubs and then quickly concoct a story of sexual assault when confronted by their disapproving peers. Most of these allegations never make it to police headquarters. The allegations are too sketchy and the accuser's immediate jury of peers reject them.

"I don't believe a bunch of hammered sorority girls in this situation," the former sorority president wrote. "I've seen too much bad behavior amongst them. It's all about having fun and then making sure you're not held accountable and your reputation is still good."

Big Ben's accuser was allegedly wearing a name tag that read DTF -- "down to f---." She engaged in a lewd and highly flirtatious conversation with Roethlisberger.

It's 2010 not 1910. Women vote, drive cars and knock boots at their own discretion. The popular R&B singer Usher makes songs targeted at women. His 2008 smash hit "Love in this Club" was most popular with women. Getting busy in the bathroom or getting a special "bottle service" at a VIP table are nowhere near as rare as joining the "mile high club."

If you read the police accounts, the accuser's sorority sisters drove this case. If Ben's bodyguards dragged the accuser to the bathroom, you could make the argument that her sorority sisters dragged her to the police.

Her initial story to the police was weak at best and made absolutely no sense at worst.

The case was so flimsy that Big Ben was never even arrested. Once she sobered up, the accuser didn't even cooperate with the police.

Let me repeat: PacBen is a freaking idiot who deserved to be suspended. Off the field, he thinks with the wrong head. In pursuit of a wham-bam, he's twice -- that we know of -- placed himself in a vulnerable position.

But the ugly truth is Ben isn't all that different from a lot of guys and girls who use alcohol as their aphrodisiac of choice. Any woman who has belonged to a prominent sorority has heard the lecture about safety rules to follow when entering a male fraternity house for a mixer/party.


We don't have a clue about whether the alleged bathroom sex between two drunken idiots was consensual. And we have even less knowledge about how Ben's "moral compass" compares to Herm's, Ben's peers, Goodell's or the broadcasters/pundits morally hyperventilating because Ben likes pretty young thangs.

What we know is Ben is clueless about how he should conduct himself given his position of responsibility.


These are some highlights of a Jason Whitlock column at the time.

As far as Jemele Hill I heard her on a podcast say that she's been around Ben since his incidents have passed and finds him to be pleasant to deal with and thinks he deserves the benefit of the doubt barring any future transgressions.

What an awesome article.

[Count Steeler]

Do you have legitimate source for this statement?


http://ludwig.squarespace.com/politics-journal/2010/4/15/the-media-lynching-of-ben-roethlisberger.html

It may be covered in here, without going over it I'm not sure. Worth reading nonetheless if you haven't before.


This is the exact thing I posted earlier and I've read a few times. I wonder why I never saw what I asked about? :noidea:



What's that?


2 doors to the washroom


I never made that an issue. That was Siss's point. Don't really know or care about the answer though as I really don't see the relevancy.

Steelerdude was asking about siss's post. That is what he was asking a source for.

[Count Steeler]

Suit, many (read liberals) in this new enlightened society (the real effect of hope & change) would call you a racist for simply pointing out that there is black and white. I don't buy into this notion.

[steelerdude15]

Suit, many (read liberals) in this new enlightened society (the real effect of hope & change) would call you a racist for simply pointing out that there is black and white. I don't buy into this notion.

I really don't think that this is race thing at all either. I do remember how there was some talk of it being racial right before and after the suspension was announced by various people in the media.

[siss]

Steelerdude was asking about siss's post. That is what he was asking a source for.

Yea i read it in the bar owners account to the police. basically the bar had an entrance from the VIP room and another in the back. When the girls said the girl was back there iwth Big ben, the bar tender told them to go around outside and go in that way. Also another point is that, the police station is really close to the bar, so the girls could have and should have called the police if Ben was really in the middle of the harming their friend.

[zulater]

I really don't think that this is race thing at all either. I do remember how there was some talk of it being racial right before and after the suspension was announced by various people in the media.

It wasn't a racial thing. But there was a racial element to it.

[suitanim]

It wasn't a racial thing. But there was a racial element to it.

Yup. But much, if not MOST of this, stems from Goodell being an idiot. Race was but a bit player...

[zulater]

Yup. But much, if not MOST of this, stems from Goodell being an idiot. Race was but a bit player...

No argument from me here. :thumbsup:

[steelerdude15]

Yea i read it in the bar owners account to the police. basically the bar had an entrance from the VIP room and another in the back. When the girls said the girl was back there iwth Big ben, the bar tender told them to go around outside and go in that way. Also another point is that, the police station is really close to the bar, so the girls could have and should have called the police if Ben was really in the middle of the harming their friend.

This is new information I never knew about. Thank you for sharing this with us.

[siss]

This is new information I never knew about. Thank you for sharing this with us. I told you I read the police report. Basically what sold me on bens innocents was the account the bar tender gave and that every single person thbat was there basically said they were surprised and didn't know anything had happened until the next day. The media left out important details.
You guys can have all the opinions you want, but unless you read that report, you can't really get a picure of what happened. Like it or not the police report is a fair account of the night.
And suitain I know you have me blocked because I pointed something out to you that pissed you off, but being a jerk does not make a person a rapist. Two different things.

[steelerdude15]

I told you I read the police report. Basically what sold me on bens innocents was the account the bar tender gave and that every single person thbat was there basically said they were surprised and didn't know anything had happened until the next day. The media left out important details.
You guys can have all the opinions you want, but unless you read that report, you can't really get a picure of what happened. Like it or not the police report is a fair account of the night.
And suitain I know you have me blocked because I pointed something out to you that pissed you off, but being a jerk does not make a person a rapist. Two different things.

I know you read the report, you stated it in a earlier post and I've read it as well. For some reason, I never saw that tad bit of information pertaining to another door to the bathroom, or I just don't remember it. Of course like always, the media cherry picks certain facts and then reports on it.

[Craic]

OMG how many times do we need to go over this HE WAS NEVER FORMALLY CHARGED WITH ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was civil the first time and there was NOT EVEN PROBABLE CAUSE THE SECo\OND TIME!

Do I need to go over probable cause AGAIN?


The problem here... is that legal definitions and reality have very little to do with each other. I also noticed that you didn't bother actually reading my post in context. iHe was ACCUSED by a woman of rape. I did not say LEGALLY accused by the government. She accused him, did she not? Others are stating as fact that he was falsely accused. My conclusion in the first line is that the accusation is neither true or false. It is simply an accusation.

Please, before yelling at me (caps), make sure you understand what I am actually saying - and not saying, because your answer really makes absolutely no sense to my post in the context of the thread.

[zulater]

The problem here... is that legal definitions and reality have very little to do with each other. I also noticed that you didn't bother actually reading my post in context. iHe was ACCUSED by a woman of rape. I did not say LEGALLY accused by the government. She accused him, did she not? Others are stating as fact that he was falsely accused. My conclusion in the first line is that the accusation is neither true or false. It is simply an accusation.

Please, before yelling at me (caps), make sure you understand what I am actually saying - and not saying, because your answer really makes absolutely no sense to my post in the context of the thread.

I guess some people wont give this accuser much credence or sympathy since she didn't have the courage to follow through with her charges.

I look at those young men who took the stand against Jerry Sandusky and bravely told the world how they were sodomized by a grown man while still boys. To me, that's the sort of victim I admire, sympathize with, and pray for.

Anyone who thinks this girl went through anything near the hell those young men did is smoking something they ought not to be.

Getting back to a point made in the OP.

This as much as anything spells the difference between a victim and accuser.

[siss]

I guess some people wont give this accuser much credence or sympathy since she didn't have the courage to follow through with her charges.

I look at those young men who took the stand against Jerry Sandusky and bravely told the world how they were sodomized by a grown man while still boys. To me, that's the sort of victim I admire, sympathize with, and pray for.

Anyone who thinks this girl went through anything near the hell those young men did is smoking something they ought not to be.

Getting back to a point made in the OP.

This as much as anything spells the difference between a victim and accuser.

As a another female, I have a hard time considering this little girl a victim. Well maybe a victim of her own stupidity, but rape victim? No more than I am. She is just as responsible for the events that night. She is the reason rape victims have a hard time coming forward. And i am being harsh, but the next time a girl who truly has been victimized is treated like a slut, we can thank the Georgia peach and other little girls like her.

As I have said before, they were both guilty of stupidity. Ben is guilty of being a jerk. And again, being a jerk DOES NOT make a person a rapist!

[steelerdude15]

As a another female, I have a hard time considering this little girl a victim. Well maybe a victim of her own stupidity, but rape victim? No more than I am. She is just as responsible for the events that night. She is the reason rape victims have a hard time coming forward. And i am being harsh, but the next time a girl who truly has been victimized is treated like a slut, we can thank the Georgia peach and other little girls like her.

As I have said before, they were both guilty of stupidity. Ben is guilty of being a jerk. And again, being a jerk DOES NOT make a person a rapist!

This is true. Girls who fake rape make it harder for women who have actually been rapped to get help, press charges, etc. Why is it though, that women fake rape? Is it payback? Is it to feel powerful and important? I've always wondered why.

[siss]

I can't tell you why. We can be vindictive creatures. I really believe in this case nthe rotten peach let her sisters convince her to come forward. And she was way to plastered to speak for herself. Just because you feel bad about the night before does not make you a victim of a heinous crime. I feel like rape is dispicable and damaging to a person that lasts forever. But for that reason it needs to be srutinized and the guy better be guilty because prison isn't fun for rapists...they are the scum bags on the criminal food chain.

[zulater]

I can't tell you why. We can be vindictive creatures. I really believe in this case nthe rotten peach let her sisters convince her to come forward. And she was way to plastered to speak for herself. Just because you feel bad about the night before does not make you a victim of a heinous crime. I feel like rape is dispicable and damaging to a person that lasts forever. But for that reason it needs to be srutinized and the guy better be guilty because prison isn't fun for rapists...they are the scum bags on the criminal food chain.

I think what you're saying is true and 75% explains why things went where they did at the end of that night.

But I also think Ben at least deserves 25% of the blame. That's not to say he committed anything resembling a criminal act. But I think he bought himself these problems because he showed a blatant lack of respect for the woman that he was using for sex. As they say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. So even though Ben almost certainly didn't sexually assault these girls ( imo and as per known evidence) he most likely left them feeling used and violated.

[siss]

I think what you're saying is true and 75% explains why things went where they did at the end of that night.

But I also think Ben at least deserves 25% of the blame. That's not to say he committed anything resembling a criminal act. But I think he bought himself these problems because he showed a blatant lack of respect for the woman that he was using for sex. As they say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. So even though Ben almost certainly didn't sexually assault these girls ( imo and as per known evidence) he most likely left them feeling used and violated.

I absolutly agree with you. And I think that in itself was Ben's oh ha moment to realize that and that is why we have the just married, college graduate, soon to be father at Quarterback and not single bachelor we used to. Ben was acting like he was 21 at 28 and the rotten peach in her own sluttly little way saved him from himself and him become a real boy.

Now that that is settled, he needs to bring me more Lombardi's!

[steelerdude15]

I absolutly agree with you. And I think that in itself was Ben's oh ha moment to realize that and that is why we have the just married, college graduate, soon to be father at Quarterback and not single bachelor we used to. Ben was acting like he was 21 at 28 and the rotten peach in her own sluttly little way saved him from himself and him become a real boy.

Now that that is settled, he needs to bring me more Lombardi's!

So is the conversation in this thread finally settled? :chuckle:

[siss]

So is the conversation in this thread finally settled? :chuckle:

I want some more Lombardis...I mean he gave Ashley a ring and now Steeler Nation wants one...

[GodfatherofSoul]

I think what you're saying is true and 75% explains why things went where they did at the end of that night.

But I also think Ben at least deserves 25% of the blame. That's not to say he committed anything resembling a criminal act. But I think he bought himself these problems because he showed a blatant lack of respect for the woman that he was using for sex. As they say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. So even though Ben almost certainly didn't sexually assault these girls ( imo and as per known evidence) he most likely left them feeling used and violated.

Ben no more deserves 25% of the blame for the rape accusation for f**king a slut than a girl dressing like a slut deserves to be raped.