Will Steelers outperform Ravens in red zone?

[LLT]

Will Steelers outperform Ravens in red zone?
July 9, 2012, 12:04 am
by Ray Frager
CSN Baltimore.com



Here’s something similar with the Ravens and the Steelers on offense: Their quarterbacks get sacked too much in the red zone.

As pointed out by Jamison Hensley at ESPN.com, Joe Flacco and Ben Roethlisberger were first and second in highest percentage of red-zone pass plays that resulted in sacks in 2011. Flacco was nailed 9.1 percent of the time and Roethlisberger 8.8 percent.

(Note this statistical oddity: You certainly wouldn’t consider the Packers’ Aaron Rodgers an offensive underachiever in any way, but in the past three seasons, he has been sacked in the red zone more times, 28, than any other NFL quarterback.)

Last season, the Ravens and Steelers also had essentially the same percentage of scoring touchdowns in the red zone (50 and 51 percent, ranking 18th and 17th in the league, respectively).

Other than trying for better execution, we haven’t heard about major changes the Ravens are making to improve their percentage. The Steelers, on the other hand, not only are putting in a new offense, but they’re also changing over their offensive line — inserting two rookies and moving one veteran.

Read More:http://www.csnwashington.com/07/09/12/Will-Steelers-outperform-Ravens-in-red-z/landing.html?blockID=737282&feedID=6703

[TMC]

I think that is a much more troubling statistic for the Ravens than it is for the Steelers. Now, this is not being a homer, so think about what I am stating before someone goes off on me. We all know that the Steelers struggle to run the football. In addition, the interior of the offensive line gives up quick pressure into the face of Roethlisberger. When you couple those two issues in the redzone, you know they are throwing and you bring that quick heat into his face, meaning he will get more sacks. But, the Steelers performed with that issue and have since took steps to help in both areas. They went with an OC more dedicated to the run game and added strength to the interior of the line.

The Ravens had a good interior OL. They have a great RB and a solid running game. The last thing they should be is predictable in the redzone, in fact, passes should surprise teams. What this tells me is, they are just flat out not getting open or having their guys get beaten. Furthermore, with the loss of Grubbs, I seriously doubt they get better on the interior. They also do not have McGahee, McClain, or Ricky Williams anymore to be that grinder.

IMO, it is a greater concern for them. It means they may place the offense more in Flacco's hands.

[Count Steeler]

I think that is a much more troubling statistic for the Ravens than it is for the Steelers. Now, this is not being a homer, so think about what I am stating before someone goes off on me. We all know that the Steelers struggle to run the football. In addition, the interior of the offensive line gives up quick pressure into the face of Roethlisberger. When you couple those two issues in the redzone, you know they are throwing and you bring that quick heat into his face, meaning he will get more sacks. But, the Steelers performed with that issue and have since took steps to help in both areas. They went with an OC more dedicated to the run game and added strength to the interior of the line.

The Ravens had a good interior OL. They have a great RB and a solid running game. The last thing they should be is predictable in the redzone, in fact, passes should surprise teams. What this tells me is, they are just flat out not getting open or having their guys get beaten. Furthermore, with the loss of Grubbs, I seriously doubt they get better on the interior. They also do not have McGahee, McClain, or Ricky Williams anymore to be that grinder.

IMO, it is a greater concern for them. It means they may place the offense more in Flacco's hands.

Best news I have read all off season.

[GBMelBlount]

I'd be shocked if we didn't...

[Pristas]

I don't think the question is "will we out perform the Ravens", the question is "will we finally out perform Brady, Rodgers, and Brees?"

[steelerdude15]

I still see we're in their heads. They never can stop writing about the Steelers; hey Baltimore, get over us. On that note, I hope the Steelers outperform all teams in the red zone.

[SteelGhost]

I don't think the question is "will we out perform the Ravens", the question is "will we finally out perform Brady, Rodgers, and Brees?"

...and will we finally score more TD's instead of FG's ? I HOPE we do.

[fansince'76]

I don't think the question is "will we out perform the Ravens", the question is "will we finally out perform Brady, Rodgers, and Brees?"

Not if we go back to the kind of focus on the running game many seem to be clamoring for...

[GBMelBlount]

Not if we go back to the kind of focus on the running game many seem to be clamoring for...

So you would prefer having Ben try to outgun Brady, Rogers & Brees as opposed to ball control and using the run to set up the pass?

[fansince'76]

So you would prefer having Ben try to outgun Brady, Rogers & Brees as opposed to ball control and using the run to set up the pass?

No, I wish people would make up their minds as far as what kind of offense they want. A grind it out approach, which will NOT produce 30+ points a game consistently, or a high-powered passing attack. To me, our current personnel (especially with Mendenhall out) favors the latter, yet I still hear many people pining for an "old school Steelers football" offense that runs it 65% of the time.

Either way, I expect an improvement due to the OL upgrades alone. It'll be nice to get a consistent push (especially) in goal line situations again rather than watching opposing defenses penetrate our OL like a hot knife through butter and our RBs get stuffed for a loss over and over and over.

[GBMelBlount]

No, I wish people would make up their minds as far as what kind of offense they want. A grind it out approach, which will NOT produce 30+ points a game consistently, or a high-powered passing attack. To me, our current personnel (especially with Mendenhall out) favors the latter, yet I still hear many people pining for an "old school Steelers football" offense that runs it 65% of the time.

Either way, I expect an improvement due to the OL upgrades alone. It'll be nice to get a consistent push (especially) in goal line situations again rather than watching opposing defenses penetrate our OL like a hot knife through butter and our RBs get stuffed for a loss over and over and over.

That is how I feel as well. With the upgrade of the line it should help us regardless. I am just a little nervous about Ben slinging it with the new playbook especially early in the year.

I am hoping with the preseason and an ostensibly light schedule the first 4 games or so, they will have time to figure these things out.

Admittedly I am concerned with Mendy being out. It would be nice to have both Mendy and Redman sharing the load.

[TMC]

No, I wish people would make up their minds as far as what kind of offense they want. A grind it out approach, which will NOT produce 30+ points a game consistently, or a high-powered passing attack. To me, our current personnel (especially with Mendenhall out) favors the latter, yet I still hear many people pining for an "old school Steelers football" offense that runs it 65% of the time.

Either way, I expect an improvement due to the OL upgrades alone. It'll be nice to get a consistent push (especially) in goal line situations again rather than watching opposing defenses penetrate our OL like a hot knife through butter and our RBs get stuffed for a loss over and over and over.

Why can't you have a good running game and a good passing game? The 1999 St. Louis Rams finished #1 in passing yards and #5 in rushing yards. Having the run and pass game finish in the top 10 should not be an unreasonable goal.

[fansince'76]

Why can't you have a good running game and a good passing game? The 1999 St. Louis Rams finished #1 in passing yards and #5 in rushing yards. Having the run and pass game finish in the top 10 should not be an unreasonable goal.

That would be nice. I was referring to the hearkening back to "Cowherball" that I've read/heard more than a few fans do.

[LLT]

No, I wish people would make up their minds as far as what kind of offense they want. A grind it out approach, which will NOT produce 30+ points a game consistently, or a high-powered passing attack. To me, our current personnel (especially with Mendenhall out) favors the latter, yet I still hear many people pining for an "old school Steelers football" offense that runs it 65% of the time.

Either way, I expect an improvement due to the OL upgrades alone. It'll be nice to get a consistent push (especially) in goal line situations again rather than watching opposing defenses penetrate our OL like a hot knife through butter and our RBs get stuffed for a loss over and over and over.

Two things that I am pretty excited about:

1) Kemo no longer lunging during the play...and jumping on the pile afterwards.

2) Redman getting the opportunity to be the feature back. I think he is going to surprise a few people. Perfect year to have a "hungry" back in our backfield.

[GBMelBlount]

I am excited about Redman as well.

Would like to have have someone sharing carries though...

Hopefully Dwyer, Batch or Rainey will step up.

[TMC]

That would be nice. I was referring to the hearkening back to "Cowherball" that I've read/heard more than a few fans do.

Well, to be honest, I am sure some that know me would state I am a Cowherball guy. I believe you have to be an effective running team and the smartest offense, especially for our quarterback, will employ play action passes. Not taking anything away from Ben and his success, but, he is not that quick read and fire triggerman you have in Brady, Brees, Rodgers, or Peyton Manning. It is not his style and as long as we try to pound him into that role, we will see some issues.

I fully understand that you can throw to set up the run, but that has always been illogical to me. Never really understood that philosophy. If you can throw when teams expect you to throw, why run? I mean, if you are good enough to pick up chunks of yards when the defense is geared to stop that, why would ever feel the need to start grinding out 2-3 yards on the ground? Just run the score up. The problem, too many teams cannot do that effectively.

It is easier and safer to establish the running game. Heck, in today's NFL, you can get an elite level RB for the price of a good WR, and you need 2 WRs. But, if you can make teams respect, even fear your running game, then play action of first down becomes a ground chewing, field flipping weapon. It is not only a way to get yards quickly, but it also rips the heart out of the defense. They have worked their tails off being ready to slow your run game and you just busted them up. Now, they have their backs against the goal and have to face that ground attack.

I really do not mind if they come out in the first quarter and run the ball 65% of the time as long as they are working to set something up. Of course, if they could rip a team through the air like Rodgers or Brady, I would not care about running the football at all. I just do not think Ben has that quick read and fire mechanism in his game. He flashes it, but he just does not do it with consistency. The thing is, as a play action QB when the running game is working, he is a stud. It is one of his best features. Why we fail to use that is beyond me. We need to bring balance to the offense. We need an effective running game. Then, we need to let our franchise QB and 2 franchise WRs slice up secondaries.

[Bluecoat96]

Why can't you have a good running game and a good passing game? The 1999 St. Louis Rams finished #1 in passing yards and #5 in rushing yards. Having the run and pass game finish in the top 10 should not be an unreasonable goal.

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again. I think we're going the way of the Saints offense. Haley and Payton do have ties together through Bill Parcells. Even if we struggle initially, I think the payoff in the end will be tremendous.

[suitanim]

Well, to be honest, I am sure some that know me would state I am a Cowherball guy. I believe you have to be an effective running team and the smartest offense, especially for our quarterback, will employ play action passes. Not taking anything away from Ben and his success, but, he is not that quick read and fire triggerman you have in Brady, Brees, Rodgers, or Peyton Manning. It is not his style and as long as we try to pound him into that role, we will see some issues.

I fully understand that you can throw to set up the run, but that has always been illogical to me. Never really understood that philosophy. If you can throw when teams expect you to throw, why run? I mean, if you are good enough to pick up chunks of yards when the defense is geared to stop that, why would ever feel the need to start grinding out 2-3 yards on the ground? Just run the score up. The problem, too many teams cannot do that effectively.

It is easier and safer to establish the running game. Heck, in today's NFL, you can get an elite level RB for the price of a good WR, and you need 2 WRs. But, if you can make teams respect, even fear your running game, then play action of first down becomes a ground chewing, field flipping weapon. It is not only a way to get yards quickly, but it also rips the heart out of the defense. They have worked their tails off being ready to slow your run game and you just busted them up. Now, they have their backs against the goal and have to face that ground attack.

I really do not mind if they come out in the first quarter and run the ball 65% of the time as long as they are working to set something up. Of course, if they could rip a team through the air like Rodgers or Brady, I would not care about running the football at all. I just do not think Ben has that quick read and fire mechanism in his game. He flashes it, but he just does not do it with consistency. The thing is, as a play action QB when the running game is working, he is a stud. It is one of his best features. Why we fail to use that is beyond me. We need to bring balance to the offense. We need an effective running game. Then, we need to let our franchise QB and 2 franchise WRs slice up secondaries.

But, by that same logic, one could say that if you can run effectively against a defense that is keyed into stopping the run, why pass? Running the ball eats up a lot more clock, and even if the other team has a dominant offense, how many points can they score if they only have the ball for 15 out of 60 minutes. This goes back to the whole Woody Hayes "Three things can happen when you pass, and two of them are bad" argument.

Balance is the key. We were 45/55 run/pass. I don't have a problem with any version of something like 45/55, 50/50, or 55/45. Effectiveness and execution are what really count.

If we go to a Saints type offense, that means we will throw a LOT of passes to running backs. I read a statistical breakdown of Brees, Rodgers and Brady (I've posted this before): Brees threw the most short, high percentage passes to running backs. Brady was next, throwing short, high percentage passes to TE's and Welker...Rodgers was the only QB throwing down the field to WR's.

[GBMelBlount]

Balance is the key. We were 45/55 run/pass. I don't have a problem with any version of something like 45/55, 50/50, or 55/45. Effectiveness and execution are what really count.

If we go to a Saints type offense, that means we will throw a LOT of passes to running backs. I read a statistical breakdown of Brees, Rodgers and Brady (I've posted this before): Brees threw the most short, high percentage passes to running backs. Brady was next, throwing short, high percentage passes to TE's and Welker...Rodgers was the only QB throwing down the field to WR's.

Agreed...and if I am not mistaken Haley is favoring the short passing game and utilizing running backs more as well.

[Edman]

Run. Pass. Doesn't matter.

Just want an offense that can be dependable.

[TMC]

But, by that same logic, one could say that if you can run effectively against a defense that is keyed into stopping the run, why pass? Running the ball eats up a lot more clock, and even if the other team has a dominant offense, how many points can they score if they only have the ball for 15 out of 60 minutes. This goes back to the whole Woody Hayes "Three things can happen when you pass, and two of them are bad" argument.

Balance is the key. We were 45/55 run/pass. I don't have a problem with any version of something like 45/55, 50/50, or 55/45. Effectiveness and execution are what really count.



Well, I am not advocating going to an all pass offense, because as we showed and the Giants showed, if you can stop the Patriots passing attack, they are pretty screwed. So, I would want balance. When the Steelers faced the Ravens, even with the dominant running game when they had Bettis, the Ravens choked the offense down. In those instances, you need to have a passing attack you can rely upon. So, I would rather see the balance. If you face a defense that crushes the run, you lean on the pass. If they cannot stop the run, you lean on the run. I would prefer to be skewed more towards the run, mainly because the Steelers got up early and milked the clock with the ground game in the second half.

I completely agree that effectiveness and execution are what counts. With Cowher, they were not always effective in the passing game. With Arians, they forgot how to run completely.

[suitanim]

Well, I am not advocating going to an all pass offense, because as we showed and the Giants showed, if you can stop the Patriots passing attack, they are pretty screwed. So, I would want balance. When the Steelers faced the Ravens, even with the dominant running game when they had Bettis, the Ravens choked the offense down. In those instances, you need to have a passing attack you can rely upon. So, I would rather see the balance. If you face a defense that crushes the run, you lean on the pass. If they cannot stop the run, you lean on the run. I would prefer to be skewed more towards the run, mainly because the Steelers got up early and milked the clock with the ground game in the second half.

I completely agree that effectiveness and execution are what counts. With Cowher, they were not always effective in the passing game. With Arians, they forgot how to run completely.

My very favorite example of running the ball effectively was in Super Bowl XL. The 4th quarter was brilliant. The Seasquaks lined up with 7-8-9 in the box and said "We DARE you to try and run against us, eat up the clock and salt the game away", and the Steelers didn't even try to disguise that that was exactly the plan.

And the Squaks could not stop it. The Steelers ran off four minutes of clock and moved the ball into Squaks territory then punted and left them with 80 yards and two minutes left to score 11 points. I think we just handed the ball off to Bettis like 10 times in a row.

I will admit that we were not as effective at that under Arians. HOWEVER, the line was nominally better, and we also had the best BIIIIIG back in history carrying the load. I just never saw the same execution under Arians that I saw under Whis/Mularkey. A lot had to do with the line.

[TMC]

I will admit that we were not as effective at that under Arians. HOWEVER, the line was nominally better, and we also had the best BIIIIIG back in history carrying the load. I just never saw the same execution under Arians that I saw under Whis/Mularkey. A lot had to do with the line.

The line played a role in that. But, Arians also played a huge role. In his first season as OC, the Steelers ran effectively. In 2007, Arians first season, the Steelers ran the football 511 times and threw it 442. They had over 2000 yards rushing and just over 3000 yards passing. Parker ran for over 1300 yards. Then, in 2008, it changed. They had 506 passing attempts and 460 rushes. The passing yards went up almost 300 on the season while the rushing yards dropped almost 500. Coincidentally, 2007 was Dan Krieder's last year in Pittsburgh and the fullback was officially dead in Arians' eyes. They won the Super Bowl in 2008. IN 2009, the numbers were even more skewed to passing. It came back into balance some in 2010 and swung wildly out of balance again last season.

The thing is, in 2010, Mendenhall came close to breaking 1300 yards and the Steelers were right at 2000 yards rushing for the season. When you really think about it, guys like Starks, Kemo, Foster, and Colon, big, strong, lumbering OL, are more suited for run blocking than pass blocking, where you need guys with better feet. While we threw well, I think if they had a better designed running game and actually had a fullback that could block and not completely miss guys in the hole, that line could have performed better in the run game. Then, when you run, the defense is not as likely to pin their ears back and it helps in your pass blocking.

Just not a big fan of any offense that drafts TEs that are FB size and asks them to learn to block as a fullback while working as a pass catcher and handling a ton of other duties. Nothing wrong with a guy like Kreider, who will line up at FB, knock a LBs' junk in the dirt, handle the occasional run, and still float out and make a tough catch. With all the versatility the Arians got from David Johnson, being a TE that can move around and all that, he ends up with 18 receptions in 3 seasons. I bet he has more missed blocks than that. Dan Krieder had 18 receptions in 2002 alone, his 3rd season in the NFL. What advantage did we actually see by dumping the fullback? None.

I would also be willing to bet that Kreider could line up stacked behind the OT or as a down TE and block as well as Johnson. That loss of the fullback helped kill this running game. The physical nature just died when they cut the fullback out.

Do not really long for 3 yards and a cloud of dust, but would damn sure like to see them keep a guy on roster that can get in front of our RB in key situations and jack that LB out the hole.

[X-Terminator]

Agreed...and if I am not mistaken Haley is favoring the short passing game and utilizing running backs more as well.

Just look at what he did with Dexter McCluster.

[suitanim]

The line played a role in that. But, Arians also played a huge role. In his first season as OC, the Steelers ran effectively. In 2007, Arians first season, the Steelers ran the football 511 times and threw it 442. They had over 2000 yards rushing and just over 3000 yards passing. Parker ran for over 1300 yards. Then, in 2008, it changed. They had 506 passing attempts and 460 rushes. The passing yards went up almost 300 on the season while the rushing yards dropped almost 500. Coincidentally, 2007 was Dan Krieder's last year in Pittsburgh and the fullback was officially dead in Arians' eyes. They won the Super Bowl in 2008. IN 2009, the numbers were even more skewed to passing. It came back into balance some in 2010 and swung wildly out of balance again last season.

The thing is, in 2010, Mendenhall came close to breaking 1300 yards and the Steelers were right at 2000 yards rushing for the season. When you really think about it, guys like Starks, Kemo, Foster, and Colon, big, strong, lumbering OL, are more suited for run blocking than pass blocking, where you need guys with better feet. While we threw well, I think if they had a better designed running game and actually had a fullback that could block and not completely miss guys in the hole, that line could have performed better in the run game. Then, when you run, the defense is not as likely to pin their ears back and it helps in your pass blocking.

Just not a big fan of any offense that drafts TEs that are FB size and asks them to learn to block as a fullback while working as a pass catcher and handling a ton of other duties. Nothing wrong with a guy like Kreider, who will line up at FB, knock a LBs' junk in the dirt, handle the occasional run, and still float out and make a tough catch. With all the versatility the Arians got from David Johnson, being a TE that can move around and all that, he ends up with 18 receptions in 3 seasons. I bet he has more missed blocks than that. Dan Krieder had 18 receptions in 2002 alone, his 3rd season in the NFL. What advantage did we actually see by dumping the fullback? None.

I would also be willing to bet that Kreider could line up stacked behind the OT or as a down TE and block as well as Johnson. That loss of the fullback helped kill this running game. The physical nature just died when they cut the fullback out.

Do not really long for 3 yards and a cloud of dust, but would damn sure like to see them keep a guy on roster that can get in front of our RB in key situations and jack that LB out the hole.

Running yards are running yards in my book. Don't really care how we get them or who we get them from. That's probably why I'm considered an Arians apologist. There are plenty of teams in the NFL who get plenty of production form their RB's without using a fullback. The other problem we had when we were to heavily dependent on the run was the inability to score points in bunches and quickly. It's not often the Steelers get in a hole, but running the ball up the gut isn't the way to score 21 points in a quarter and a half.

I'm literally exhausted form the whole OC debate. I'm not going there again, suffice it to say that with the potential we have in this line, and the level of talent we have at the skill positions, there's no reason not to expect some real solid performance from the offense as a whole and in every facet of that side of the ball, if not this year than definitely next.

[GBMelBlount]

...suffice it to say that with the potential we have in this line, and the level of talent we have at the skill positions, there's no reason not to expect some real solid performance from the offense as a whole and in every facet of that side of the ball, if not this year than definitely next.

That pretty much sums it up....and you can never compare apples to apples because our line has likely been DRAMATICALLY Improved in the off season...

[TMC]

Running yards are running yards in my book. Don't really care how we get them or who we get them from. That's probably why I'm considered an Arians apologist. There are plenty of teams in the NFL who get plenty of production form their RB's without using a fullback. The other problem we had when we were to heavily dependent on the run was the inability to score points in bunches and quickly. It's not often the Steelers get in a hole, but running the ball up the gut isn't the way to score 21 points in a quarter and a half.

I'm literally exhausted form the whole OC debate. I'm not going there again, suffice it to say that with the potential we have in this line, and the level of talent we have at the skill positions, there's no reason not to expect some real solid performance from the offense as a whole and in every facet of that side of the ball, if not this year than definitely next.

Well, I do not agree that running yards are running yards. I guess that is where we differ. Some teams like the Colts, Rams, and others that throw first can run off the pass and be very effective in doing so. They usually get chunks of yards because they catch teams in passing formations. If they run on 3rd and 1, it will often be a draw or some other run that catches the defense by surprise because their passing game works so well. Sure, they go the 1 yard, its a rushing yard, but IMO, that just differs from a team that lines up heavy, stacks a fullback, and takes that damn yard.

In both instances, its a rushing yard. But one came from you fooling a team, the other came because you simply whipped their ass. When I look at Jerome Bettis first 6 years in Pittsburgh, six consecutive 1000 yard seasons, one 1400 yard season and one 1600 yard season, that is impressive shit. With most of Bettis yards, he lined up behind his fullback and just bust out yards when everyone in the building, from owner down to the cat that throws peanuts, knew he was running. Then, I look at a guy like Faulk, who had 5-1000 yard seasons in a row with 4 over 1300 yards, but I know and everyone else does that he will catch some swing passes, take wide pitches, run the edges, and make his yards, but just make them in a different way.

Both players got rushing yards....but they are just different.

I want my rushing attack to be able to line up and get that yard when the defense tells them they cannot have it. I want my passing attack to be able to drive the field when the defense is going all out to stop the pass. When that happens, then IMO, they start piling up Super Bowls.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That would be nice. I was referring to the hearkening back to "Cowherball" that I've read/heard more than a few fans do.

this derrogatory connotation to "Cowherball" is what so many people get hung up on. The haters of the Cowher era think that if somebody wants a physical offense, that it means its an anti-pass offense. The advocates of the Cowher era want to see a run game and some play action or something to that effect. Personally, I enjoyed the 80's and 90's. I think that there was a mix of either offenses, where O'Donnell, Stewart, Maddox and Ben had some good passing years and others where Foster, Bettis, Parker carried the load.

With Ben, Wallace, Brown, Miller, etc...the pass game has to be used, but the offense also needs to let the likes of Pouncey, Colon, DeCastro, Gilbert impose their will and play physical in the run game. The moment that Whisenhunt and Grimm left, the Steelers offense was destined to have any physical presence evaporate to the point where short yardage conversion and red zone efficiency would decline. Steeler football doesnt have to be 3 yards and a cloud of dust, but I honestly hope it can be a physical offensive unit again.

[GBMelBlount]

Just look at what he (haley) did with Dexter McCluster.

I could not agree more....and I could see Rainey playing a similar role.

Their measurables are very similar and rainey might be even more explosive.




(RAINEY) Analysis

Strengths: Perhaps the most explosive cutting ability and straight-line speed of any athlete in the 2012 draft. Can make defenders look silly due to his lateral agility and sudden acceleration.

Versatile. Saw time as a running back, receiver, punt returner and kick returner for the Gators. Looks natural catching the ball out of the backfield and has shown the ability to track the ball over his shoulder and snatch passes outside of his frame. Has struggled a bit with durability over his career but is willing to play with pain. Relishes his opportunities on special teams but is not just a return specialist. Explosive burst led to his breaking the school and SEC record with six blocked punts. ...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1273191/chris-rainey

[suitanim]

Well, I do not agree that running yards are running yards. I guess that is where we differ. Some teams like the Colts, Rams, and others that throw first can run off the pass and be very effective in doing so. They usually get chunks of yards because they catch teams in passing formations. If they run on 3rd and 1, it will often be a draw or some other run that catches the defense by surprise because their passing game works so well. Sure, they go the 1 yard, its a rushing yard, but IMO, that just differs from a team that lines up heavy, stacks a fullback, and takes that damn yard.

In both instances, its a rushing yard. But one came from you fooling a team, the other came because you simply whipped their ass. When I look at Jerome Bettis first 6 years in Pittsburgh, six consecutive 1000 yard seasons, one 1400 yard season and one 1600 yard season, that is impressive shit. With most of Bettis yards, he lined up behind his fullback and just bust out yards when everyone in the building, from owner down to the cat that throws peanuts, knew he was running. Then, I look at a guy like Faulk, who had 5-1000 yard seasons in a row with 4 over 1300 yards, but I know and everyone else does that he will catch some swing passes, take wide pitches, run the edges, and make his yards, but just make them in a different way.

Both players got rushing yards....but they are just different.

I want my rushing attack to be able to line up and get that yard when the defense tells them they cannot have it. I want my passing attack to be able to drive the field when the defense is going all out to stop the pass. When that happens, then IMO, they start piling up Super Bowls.

I do agree with this...the Colts, in particular, were always an under-rated running team under Manning. But they didn't really need to employ a FB in order to be effective. Manning did a LOT off the play-action...and I'm not sure it was ONLY because they could pass the ball so well. Teams respected the run enough to be "honest" when Manning faked a hand-off. I'm just saying you don't need to line up in the I and smash it down the middle to be effective....Willie Parker's 75 yard TD run against the Squaks was a counter play out of a single back set...

See, this is working back around to another conversation about OC's, and I don't want to go there. Arians had a TERRIBLE line to work with, and he ran a complex offense. That's a problem. Also, if Arians was so awful, predictable, and stupid, why did Pagano, the Ravens DC, the man who had to gameplan against Arians offense the MOST during their respective tenures, so quickly snatch him up as his OC in one of his first moves as the Colts new OC?

[TMC]

I do not think Arians was an awful OC. I just do not prefer some of the things he did, like using an undersized TE as a multipurpose guy instead of using that true fullback. He ran sets that would employ a fullback. Why not keep a FB on roster?

And, there are times where I think he over-thought the offense, ran plays that were designed to suck guys in or trap guys and it just did not happen. Some of that was because our OL was too slow to get there. But, as an OC, you have to use what you have. Bottom line, you do not completely suck as an OC and make it to 2 Super Bowls. I get that. His style just did not seem to be that great blend with our talent and some of the sets he tended to trot out on the field.

I will say this though, Luck appears to be in the mold of a Brady or Manning, desires to stand tall and make quick throws. Arians could have some success with him. Ben just is not that guy.

[suitanim]

I do not think Arians was an awful OC. I just do not prefer some of the things he did, like using an undersized TE as a multipurpose guy instead of using that true fullback. He ran sets that would employ a fullback. Why not keep a FB on roster?

And, there are times where I think he over-thought the offense, ran plays that were designed to suck guys in or trap guys and it just did not happen. Some of that was because our OL was too slow to get there. But, as an OC, you have to use what you have. Bottom line, you do not completely suck as an OC and make it to 2 Super Bowls. I get that. His style just did not seem to be that great blend with our talent and some of the sets he tended to trot out on the field.

I will say this though, Luck appears to be in the mold of a Brady or Manning, desires to stand tall and make quick throws. Arians could have some success with him. Ben just is not that guy.

Arians whole passing offense is predicated upon the WR's involved in complex crossing routes to fool DB's. That takes time...a luxury we obviously didn't possess for the last few years with that line. He obviously adjusted, but it also didn't play to HIS strengths. It's like a chicken and egg things...

Anyway, I'm 100% a Haley fan now and can't wait to see what he brings to the table.

[86WARD]

Why can't you have a good running game and a good passing game? The 1999 St. Louis Rams finished #1 in passing yards and #5 in rushing yards. Having the run and pass game finish in the top 10 should not be an unreasonable goal.

Well when you look at the stable of RBs the Steelers have...it makes it very difficult to have both.

[GBMelBlount]

Originally Posted by TMC

Why can't you have a good running game and a good passing game?


Well when you look at the stable of RBs the Steelers have...it makes it very difficult to have both.



Top 5 NFL Running Backs 2011

YPC
Marice Jones Drew 4.7
Ray Rice 4.7
Michael Turner 4.5
LeSean McCoy 4.8
Arian Foster 4.4

Isaac Redman 4.5
Jonathan Dwyer 7.7

[TMC]

Well when you look at the stable of RBs the Steelers have...it makes it very difficult to have both.

I do not buy into that at all. Prior to 2005, Willie Parker was some unknown nobody hoping to make a roster. Isaac Redman started one game last season, ran for 121 yards and have a YPC number over 7. In three other games, he had 10+ carries and was over 4.8 YPC in 2 of the 3. Dwyer had over 10 carries against Tennessee and had over 100 yards.

Then, when you factor in guys that have barely touched the field or have not touched the field, like Clay, Batch, and Rainey, you have to realize that they are simply unproven.

The thing with runningbacks, you really do not know what you have until you stick the pigskin in their gut.

[Iron Steeler]

I do not buy into that at all. Prior to 2005, Willie Parker was some unknown nobody hoping to make a roster. Isaac Redman started one game last season, ran for 121 yards and have a YPC number over 7. In three other games, he had 10+ carries and was over 4.8 YPC in 2 of the 3. Dwyer had over 10 carries against Tennessee and had over 100 yards.

Then, when you factor in guys that have barely touched the field or have not touched the field, like Clay, Batch, and Rainey, you have to realize that they are simply unproven.

The thing with runningbacks, you really do not know what you have until you stick the pigskin in their gut.

True statement

[86WARD]

Top 5 NFL Running Backs 2011

YPC
Marice Jones Drew 4.7
Ray Rice 4.7
Michael Turner 4.5
LeSean McCoy 4.8
Arian Foster 4.4

Isaac Redman 4.5
Jonathan Dwyer 7.7

Lol...seriously?

[GBMelBlount]

Lol...seriously?

I ONLY stated FACTS so I am not sure what your problem is with this...

[X-Terminator]

Neither Issac Redman nor Jonathan Dwyer were starters last year, for one, and therefore are not proven in any way. Second, the 5 guys you listed before him are 5 of the best backs in the league, and there's no way in hell Redman (or Dwyer) belongs in the same conversation. So they averaged 4.5 and 7.7 YPC in limited action. Doesn't really mean a whole hell of a lot.

Disclaimer: This is not to say these guys couldn't get the job done, just saying that they still have a lot to prove.

[suitanim]

Neither Issac Redman nor Jonathan Dwyer were starters last year, for one, and therefore are not proven in any way. Second, the 5 guys you listed before him are 5 of the best backs in the league, and there's no way in hell Redman (or Dwyer) belongs in the same conversation. So they averaged 4.5 and 7.7 YPC in limited action. Doesn't really mean a whole hell of a lot.

Disclaimer: This is not to say these guys couldn't get the job done, just saying that they still have a lot to prove.

Definitely. Because of the situational nature of the minutes these guys play, the numbers don't mean much. Starters numbers account for short yardage/goalline situations, running in all situations, including obvious situations, carrying 20-25 times a game and getting banged up and tired, etc, etc...it's not apples-to-apples. That one dude a couple years ago (I can never remember that fruitloop's name) had a wonderful statistical analysis that proved empirically that our best and most effective running back was......Mewelde Moore.

I like Redman. He runs with power and has nice balance. I'm curious to see how he does as a feature back this year. But at this point we don't even know if he can sustain 200 carries a year, let alone 300 or even more.

[GBMelBlount]

Neither Issac Redman nor Jonathan Dwyer were starters last year, for one, and therefore are not proven in any way. Second, the 5 guys you listed before him are 5 of the best backs in the league, and there's no way in hell Redman (or Dwyer) belongs in the same conversation. So they averaged 4.5 and 7.7 YPC in limited action. Doesn't really mean a whole hell of a lot.

Disclaimer: This is not to say these guys couldn't get the job done, just saying that they still have a lot to prove.

Mendy is not a top 5 either and we were still 9th in the league in yards per carry behind a shitty line.

So with the additions of Decastro & Adams and a healthy Pouncey and Colon (praying) do I think we could have a stronger running game this year than last withor without mendy?

Absolutely!

[X-Terminator]

Definitely. Because of the situational nature of the minutes these guys play, the numbers don't mean much. Starters numbers account for short yardage/goalline situations, running in all situations, including obvious situations, carrying 20-25 times a game and getting banged up and tired, etc, etc...it's not apples-to-apples. That one dude a couple years ago (I can never remember that fruitloop's name) had a wonderful statistical analysis that proved empirically that our best and most effective running back was......Mewelde Moore.

I like Redman. He runs with power and has nice balance. I'm curious to see how he does as a feature back this year. But at this point we don't even know if he can sustain 200 carries a year, let alone 300 or even more.

That fruitloop was UltimateFootballNetwork, aka "Ultimate Fuck Nuckle." What a tool that guy was. But you're right - Redman still has to prove he can carry the load for half the season. It's not enough to simply say "look, he averaged 4.5 YPC, as good as some of the best backs in the league, so he must be just as good."


Mendy is not a top 5 either and we were still 9th in the league in yards per carry behind a shitty line.

So with the additions of Decastro & Adams and a healthy Pouncey and Colon (praying) do I think we could have a stronger running game this year than last withor without mendy?

Absolutely!

Well, Mendenhall was the starter, was he not? His numbers would be the ones to compare to the others, not Redman or Dwyer because they simply do not have enough of a pedigree.

And if your point was to say that they could have a stronger running game this season with the new additions, why not just...you know...say that? You were comparing numbers straight-up, and that doesn't really support that point.

[fansince'76]

That one dude a couple years ago (I can never remember that fruitloop's name) had a wonderful statistical analysis that proved empirically that our best and most effective running back was......Mewelde Moore.


That fruitloop was UltimateFootballNetwork, aka "Ultimate Fuck Nuckle." What a tool that guy was.

Mewelde Moore was unequivocally the best RB in Steelers history! He went to Tulane! The only reason for the Steelers' game winning drive in SB XLIII, or for that matter, scoring any points in that game at all is because MeMo was on the field! :lol:

[tube517]

Mewelde Moore was unequivocally the best RB in Steelers history! He went to Tulane! The only reason for the Steelers' game winning drive in SB XLIII, or for that matter, scoring any points in that game at all is because MeMo was on the field! :lol:

:nono: No comparison to John Kuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhnnnnnnnnn

Sent from my Thrive using Tapatalk 2

[86WARD]

Kuhn!

[GBMelBlount]

Well, Mendenhall was the starter, was he not? His numbers would be the ones to compare to the others, not Redman or Dwyer because they simply do not have enough of a pedigree.

And if your point was to say that they could have a stronger running game this season with the new additions, why not just...you know...say that? You were comparing numbers straight-up, and that doesn't really support that point.

Pedigree?

Anyway...to address your concerns regarding my lack of full disclosure in my first post....

and more completely addressing TMC's original point in a single post....bottom line is I feel there are plenty of good running backs in our stable collectively that combined with the line upgrades can allow us to have a VERY dominant running game and a VERY dominant passing game this year.

:thumbsup:

[X-Terminator]

Pedigree?

Anyway...to address your concerns regarding my lack of full disclosure in my first post....

and more completely addressing TMC's original point in a single post....bottom line is I feel there are plenty of good running backs in our stable collectively that combined with the line upgrades can allow us to have a VERY dominant running game and a VERY dominant passing game this year.

:thumbsup:

By pedigree, I mean neither of them have the necessary body of work to be able to compare their numbers with some of the best backs in the league. They need to prove it on the field with a heavier workload.

Nice edit, though, because I did read the original post. However, in the best interests of the board, I won't go there. Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

[GBMelBlount]

Body of work....thanks for clarifying.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Mendy is not a top 5 either and we were still 9th in the league in yards per carry behind a shitty line.

So with the additions of Decastro & Adams and a healthy Pouncey and Colon (praying) do I think we could have a stronger running game this year than last withor without mendy?

Absolutely!
Good point. The O line gets little of the credit for production or lack thereof. Guys like Barry Foster and Bam Morris were productive, largely because of their O line.

IMO, Redman is nothing more than Richard Huntley as a RB and that is good enough behind a good offensive line, if Kugler can develop the new roster into a solid O line.

[43Hitman]

I like Redman. He runs with power and has nice balance. I'm curious to see how he does as a feature back this year. But at this point we don't even know if he can sustain 200 carries a year, let alone 300 or even more.


You forgot to mention his suddenness and glide. :chuckle:

[suitanim]

You forgot to mention his suddenness and glide. :chuckle:

He's not fast, so...

And the Richard Huntley comparison is absurd. The line Redman has run behind sucked.

[GBMelBlount]

I like Redman. He runs with power and has nice balance. I'm curious to see how he does as a feature back this year. But at this point we don't even know if he can sustain 200 carries a year, let alone 300 or even more.

Yes he does...and he keeps moving.

Let's hope he is built for more carries and hopefully Dwyer, Batch and / or Rainey perform well enough to earn a good share the carries as well.

[Craic]

You forgot to mention his suddenness and glide. :chuckle:

I was thinking the exact same thing.

[Craic]

That pretty much sums it up....and you can never compare apples to apples because our line has likely been DRAMATICALLY Improved in the off season...

You forgot "on paper."

Until they get out on the field and actually play, who knows how much they've improved. It looks good, I'll give you that. looking good and actually performing well, are two drastically different things however.

As for whether we'll be better than the Ravens in the redzone this year, who cares. As long as we put up more points than the other team, I don't care if we're at 22% in the redzone and only get in it four times all season.

Like I said, as long as we have more points than the other team, I'm happy. Everything else is BCS ranking material.

[GBMelBlount]

It looks good, I'll give you that. looking good and actually performing well, are two drastically different things however.

As for whether we'll be better than the Ravens in the redzone this year, who cares. As long as we put up more points than the other team, I don't care if we're at 22% in the redzone and only get in it four times all season.



Agreed.

...and fortunately the odds are in our favor and the possibility of improving at ALL 5 OL positions is exciting.

....and I do agree that W's are more important than stats.

[GBMelBlount]

Good point. The O line gets little of the credit for production or lack thereof. Guys like Barry Foster and Bam Morris were productive, largely because of their O line.

IMO, Redman is nothing more than Richard Huntley as a RB and that is good enough behind a good offensive line, if Kugler can develop the new roster into a solid O line.

Agreed...it's also interesting that while Mendenhall is a talented running back he has not performed very well behind our line the last 2 years.

Perhaps it's his style.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Agreed...it's also interesting that while Mendenhall is a talented running back he has not performed very well behind our line the last 2 years.

Perhaps it's his style.

I think a lot of it is perception. How do you think Ray Rice has performed over the past 3 seasons ??

Over the past 3 years, here is how Rice and Mendenhall compare:
-Ray Rice, 3923 YDS rushing, 852 ATT, 4.6 YPC
-Mendenhall, 3309 YDS rushing, 794 ATT, 4.17 YPC

This is what I dont understand. There is a certain belief that our O line has been terrible the past few seasons. There is this belief that Mendenhall has not performed well the past few seasons either, yet many can agree that a poor O line can effect the RB that runs behind it. Mendenhall has 0.43 YPC less than a RB that many believe is a top 5 RB in the NFL, who runs behind a more talented O line and FB's like Vontae Leach and LeRon Mclain and is deemed an underperforming RB. If Mendenhall has a slightly better O line and can run for an extra 7 yards a game......he has Ray Rice type numbers.

Mendenhall is probably one of the most under appreciated Steeler players...maybe its his Twitter comments and their legacy??? Maybe its because he isnt a big back like some want to see???

[fansince'76]

Mendenhall is probably one of the most under appreciated Steeler players...maybe its his Twitter comments and their legacy??? Maybe its because he isnt a big back like some want to see???

Add in the Super Bowl fumble (which was more David Johnson's fault than anybody else's), and I'd say ya got a bingo...

[GBMelBlount]

I respect your opinion El Gonzo.

However the last 2 years he has averaged under 4 ypc and is in the bottom 5 (out of 28) runningbacks who have had over 300 carries the last 2 years....that's not very good.

...and his YAC (1.6) is 2nd worst of that group over the same span.

3 years ago he had a very good year...the last 2 not so good imo.

Is it the line? Predictability? etc...perhaps. But as we talked about our overall team ypc was 9th overall in the league last year.

...and I DO think you have a good statistical point that there is not a large difference between Rice and Mendy the last 3 seasons.

Good conversation and good points...

I am sure we both hope he is back sooner than later for sure. :drink:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Add in the Super Bowl fumble (which was more David Johnson's fault than anybody else's), and I'd say ya got a bingo...

Yeah, saw that last week on NFLnetwork again and find it amusing that:
1. Clay Matthews recognized the play before the ball was snapped and was yelling "spill it!" to other defenders
2. Johnson doesnt block Mathews and I think the pulling Kemo doesnt block Pickett inside either
3. Mendenhall is blamed by 90% of Steeler fans for fumbling away that SB, while we threw 2 INT's too.


The other good game on NFL network was 2002 AFC Wildcard game. It was eerie to watch Browns run a series where H-Back Steve Heiden blocked poorly for William Green and Kendrell Bell makes a tackle that forced the Browns to punt in the 1st half, then on the next series........ Amos Zeroue has a 30 yard run up the middle on a great lead block by Dan Kreider. Then the Browns inability to run the ball and eat clock allowed the Steelers offense to get back on the field and comeback. Reminded me of something I saw here recently.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I respect your opinion El Gonzo.

However the last 2 years he has averaged under 4 ypc and is in the bottom 5 (out of 28) runningbacks who have had over 300 carries the last 2 years....that's not very good.

...and his YAC (1.6) is 2nd worst of that group over the same span.

3 years ago he had a very good year...the last 2 not so good imo.

Is it the line? Predictability? etc...perhaps. But as we talked about our overall team ypc was 9th overall in the league last year.

...and I DO think you have a good statistical point that there is not a large difference between Rice and Mendy the last 3 seasons.

Good conversation and good points...

I am sure we both hope he is back sooner than later for sure. :drink: There are lots of things we can point to in the past 2 seasons, but I just dont think that Mendenhall is as bad of a RB as so many fans think. I especially think that DeCastro and Colon inside will be a better tandem than Kemo and Foster and if the Steelers want to run inside, they have no excuse to be ineffective now. I honestly think Preacher should be able to average 3.3 YPC behind this line if healthy.

[GBMelBlount]

I especially think that DeCastro and Colon inside will be a better tandem than Kemo and Foster and if the Steelers want to run inside, they have no excuse to be ineffective now. I honestly think Preacher should be able to average 3.3 YPC behind this line if healthy.

If DeCastro is NEAR as good as projected and we have a healthy Colon and Pouncey....we could have one of the best interior lines in the league I would imagine...

...and I've met Preacher (and his beautiful wife) a few times. He is about the size of Bettis....so I will see your 3.3 & raise it to 3.5 ypc.

[suitanim]

I will never understand why the Steelers fans don't realize what they have in Mendenhall. Yes, he's a retard OFF the field, but he is a great running back. Redman will be a better-than-adequate replacement because he will have a vastly upgraded OL. And Mendy will once again be overlooked by Steelers fans.

[Nadroj 20]

All I know is what I see when watching games. Me and my dad have watched almost every Steelers game together since I was like 10 years old. We sometimes have different opinions on things but something we have always agreed upon and pointed out EVERY time it happens is when Mendenhall tip toes around and gets blasted in the backfield for a 3 yard loss. Now I understand he isn't the only RB in the league that has been tackled for a loss but we see it happen a lot.

My biggest issue all along is that fact that suit and gonzo is correct. Mendenhall IS a good RB and has had a good seasons and great games. That is why he drives me up a wall everytime he stutter steps to a loss or doesn't drive his feet through a hole. I see Redman doing that. Moving forward all the time, putting his head down and getting every inch he possible can and he is also quick enough on his feet to make spin moves and cuts when necessary.

Maybe I'm nit-picking because I expect Mendenhall to be better and I'm only looking at the negatives. But then again I always feel like I give him credit when I believe it is due. I don't know. In a way I can see both sides of the arguement and I happen to be leaning toward the side of missing Mendy this season is no big deal.

[suitanim]

All I know is what I see when watching games. Me and my dad have watched almost every Steelers game together since I was like 10 years old. We sometimes have different opinions on things but something we have always agreed upon and pointed out EVERY time it happens is when Mendenhall tip toes around and gets blasted in the backfield for a 3 yard loss. Now I understand he isn't the only RB in the league that has been tackled for a loss but we see it happen a lot.

My biggest issue all along is that fact that suit and gonzo is correct. Mendenhall IS a good RB and has had a good seasons and great games. That is why he drives me up a wall everytime he stutter steps to a loss or doesn't drive his feet through a hole. I see Redman doing that. Moving forward all the time, putting his head down and getting every inch he possible can and he is also quick enough on his feet to make spin moves and cuts when necessary.

Maybe I'm nit-picking because I expect Mendenhall to be better and I'm only looking at the negatives. But then again I always feel like I give him credit when I believe it is due. I don't know. In a way I can see both sides of the arguement and I happen to be leaning toward the side of missing Mendy this season is no big deal.

Conversely, there were many, many, many times when Mendy took the hand-off and there were already three defenders in the backfield. He has a nice knack for making something out of nothing. I think people like simple, monolithic answers, and Redman fits that bill. He puts his head down and smashes through. BUT, there are going to be occasions when HE takes the ball and gets met by 3 defenders and that's just gonna be it. He's not "nifty" like Mendy.

[Nadroj 20]

Conversely, there were many, many, many times when Mendy took the hand-off and there were already three defenders in the backfield. He has a nice knack for making something out of nothing. I think people like simple, monolithic answers, and Redman fits that bill. He puts his head down and smashes through. BUT, there are going to be occasions when HE takes the ball and gets met by 3 defenders and that's just gonna be it. He's not "nifty" like Mendy.

Agreed. But those are not the instances im talking about. I know the difference betwen that which is unavoidable on his part and not hitting the hole hard and trying to make too much happen and lose yards.

Like ive said before i feel mendy had a high risk high reward running style. Guess it depends on your preference.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

You guys know what was interesting?? Watching the 2002 Steelers vs. Browns AFC Wildcard game replay. I saw William Green in a single back offense, with multiple TE's and there were times he got the handoff and there were multiple defenders in the backfield. Its just like Suit was saying that Mendenhall often saw.

Now, I'm not saying William Green and Mendenhall are similar RB's, but those offenses were similarly schemed by the same OC and a lot of the same issues of that game mirrored what I have seen for 5 years of Steelers offenses. Green hit 1 decent run up the middle, but was getting met a lot at the LOS for little or no gain.

[GBMelBlount]

You guys know what was interesting?? Watching the 2002 Steelers vs. Browns AFC Wildcard game replay. I saw William Green in a single back offense, with multiple TE's and there were times he got the handoff and there were multiple defenders in the backfield. Its just like Suit was saying that Mendenhall often saw.

Now, I'm not saying William Green and Mendenhall are similar RB's, but those offenses were similarly schemed by the same OC and a lot of the same issues of that game mirrored what I have seen for 5 years of Steelers offenses. Green hit 1 decent run up the middle, but was getting met a lot at the LOS for little or no gain.

If Redman benefits from the line upgrades and / or new playbook and playcalling I couldn't be happier.

The main thing I hope to see is that Mendy simply gets the opportunty he deserves when he comes back....and I trust that will happen even if Redman (or whoever) performs well as the featured back in Mendy's absence.

I would LOVE to see two good backs sharing carries and I also think Redman's and Mendy's different running styles complement each others.

[suitanim]

You guys know what was interesting?? Watching the 2002 Steelers vs. Browns AFC Wildcard game replay. I saw William Green in a single back offense, with multiple TE's and there were times he got the handoff and there were multiple defenders in the backfield. Its just like Suit was saying that Mendenhall often saw.

Now, I'm not saying William Green and Mendenhall are similar RB's, but those offenses were similarly schemed by the same OC and a lot of the same issues of that game mirrored what I have seen for 5 years of Steelers offenses. Green hit 1 decent run up the middle, but was getting met a lot at the LOS for little or no gain.


First off, William Green?

The Browns offense? Versus the Steelers defense? The same offense that had Tim Couch? And the HC that COMPLETELY IGNORED THE OFFENSIVE LINE?

Yup...that's an apt comparison.

Perhaps if YOU were the OC on that team, you know, someone with all that vast amount of HIGH SCHOOL COACHING EXPERIENCE, things would have been different.

What a fucking joke.

[suitanim]

See, this is what kills me about Gonzo (and I can feel the ban hammer warming up, since criticism will be confused as a personal attack, but, whatever).

HIS experience as a high school coach is above reproach. However, a kid like Mike Adams experience is called into question because he ONLY went to Ohio State. So college experience is both a complete level above him, and a school like Ohio State a completely unattainable pipe dream as a coach, but also to be dismissed because they just don't teach technique like HE does in HIGH SCHOOL! HIGH SCHOOL!

And Arians is to be judged negatively because, as a coordinator, he didn't get any calls to be a HC. HOWEVER, when Pagano is promoted to HC, he, too, is also marginalized as poor decision maker in comparison because, apparently, getting promoted to HC only matters when he agrees with the circumstances. So Arians being passed over speaks volumes about what a poor OC HE was, but Pagano getting promoted ALSO speaks volumes as to how that also doesn't matter because his first hire, what Chuck called "hitting a home run", runs counter to Gonzo's opinion.

It's just like stats. He'll parade them out all day as unassailable empirical data to prove HIS point, but then hypocritically and duplicitously attack facts that run counter to his argument as "being deceiving and unreliable".

The hypocrisy and duplicity is staggering. And I'LL get banned for pointing it out!

[GBMelBlount]

The hypocrisy and duplicity is staggering. And I'LL get banned for pointing it out!

I hope not. You usually make very good points and I usually agree with you...it is just that sometimes a good point can be overshadowed by the delivery.

(I should know...I am as guilty of that as anyone)

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

First off, William Green?

The Browns offense? Versus the Steelers defense? The same offense that had Tim Couch? And the HC that COMPLETELY IGNORED THE OFFENSIVE LINE?

Yup...that's an apt comparison.

Perhaps if YOU were the OC on that team, you know, someone with all that vast amount of HIGH SCHOOL COACHING EXPERIENCE, things would have been different.

What a fucking joke.

Classy as always.

Browns O line of Ross Verba, Barry Stokes, Shaun O hara, Ryan Tucker, Dave Wohlabaugh was probably slightly better talented than the Steelers line of last year. Browns H-back Steve Heiden an equally inefficient lead blocker as David Johnson.

A handoff from 2 different Arians designed offenses, that both looked equally under talented to run the football, both had similar results in not being to run the ball effectively is what I point out and you expectedly redirect the conversation to an ad-hom attack because I donate some of my time to coach youth football.

Way to make this board a better place. :clap2:

[Steeldude]

I will never understand why the Steelers fans don't realize what they have in Mendenhall. Yes, he's a retard OFF the field, but he is a great running back. Redman will be a better-than-adequate replacement because he will have a vastly upgraded OL. And Mendy will once again be overlooked by Steelers fans.

He's a great RB? Based on what? It isn't positive consistency. It isn't stats either. Big plays? Nope. Is it toughness? Nope again. I have seen nothing from Mendenhall to suggest that he isn't anything other than an average NFL RB. Sure he has made some splash plays, but so did Parker. Is he great too? I have seen more promise out of Bam Morris than Mendenhall.

Redman has shown to be better even with last year's O-line. Why make an excuse saying he will get a better O-line this season? The O-line could be a complete flop.

[Steeldude]

Classy as always.

Browns O line of Ross Verba, Barry Stokes, Shaun O hara, Ryan Tucker, Dave Wohlabaugh was probably slightly better talented than the Steelers line of last year. Browns H-back Steve Heiden an equally inefficient lead blocker as David Johnson.

A handoff from 2 different Arians designed offenses, that both looked equally under talented to run the football, both had similar results in not being to run the ball effectively is what I point out and you expectedly redirect the conversation to an ad-hom attack because I donate some of my time to coach youth football.

Way to make this board a better place. :clap2:

Is it any surprise it came from Suitanim?

[suitanim]

Classy as always.

Browns O line of Ross Verba, Barry Stokes, Shaun O hara, Ryan Tucker, Dave Wohlabaugh was probably slightly better talented than the Steelers line of last year. Browns H-back Steve Heiden an equally inefficient lead blocker as David Johnson.

A handoff from 2 different Arians designed offenses, that both looked equally under talented to run the football, both had similar results in not being to run the ball effectively is what I point out and you expectedly redirect the conversation to an ad-hom attack because I donate some of my time to coach youth football.

Way to make this board a better place. :clap2:

Ad hom? My "attack" was 100% football related. I simply pointed out how much more you know then A) The coaches at OSU, B) The ex-OC of the Steelers and C) The new HC of the Colts.

You're a goddamned football genius!

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Ad hom? My "attack" was 100% football related. I simply pointed out how much more you know then A) The coaches at OSU, B) The ex-OC of the Steelers and C) The new HC of the Colts.

You're a goddamned football genius!

And your rants about the "retirement" of the former Steelers Offensive Coordinator show how much more that you know than Art Rooney the the Steelers organization.

I think that shows that you believe you are a much greater football genius than anybody here. Great stuff, classy as always and in the spirit of constructive discussion on a message board.

YOU and you alone............... make this forum a better place for all to enjoy.

[X-Terminator]

He's a great RB? Based on what? It isn't positive consistency. It isn't stats either. Big plays? Nope. Is it toughness? Nope again. I have seen nothing from Mendenhall to suggest that he isn't anything other than an average NFL RB. Sure he has made some splash plays, but so did Parker. Is he great too? I have seen more promise out of Bam Morris than Mendenhall.

Redman has shown to be better even with last year's O-line. Why make an excuse saying he will get a better O-line this season? The O-line could be a complete flop.

Redman is better? Are you really going to base that on the limited amount of work he got last season when teams weren't gameplanning for him? Again, I like Redman a LOT, but he has to prove he's better with the heavy workload he's going to get before anyone can say he's "the next one" and kick Mendenhall to the curb.

[Craic]

There are lots of things we can point to in the past 2 seasons, but I just dont think that Mendenhall is as bad of a RB as so many fans think. I especially think that DeCastro and Colon inside will be a better tandem than Kemo and Foster and if the Steelers want to run inside, they have no excuse to be ineffective now. I honestly think Preacher should be able to average 3.3 YPC behind this line if healthy.

Only if you put a plate of hot wings and a pepsi on the other side of the line. Just call me "Big Snack: The Second Coming." Or "2 B.S." for short... wait, nevermind.

[suitanim]

And your rants about the "retirement" of the former Steelers Offensive Coordinator show how much more that you know than Art Rooney the the Steelers organization.

I think that shows that you believe you are a much greater football genius than anybody here. Great stuff, classy as always and in the spirit of constructive discussion on a message board.

YOU and you alone............... make this forum a better place for all to enjoy.

You mean the OC they kept retaining year after the year? The one that THEY supposedly didn't know liked to pass? The one YOU kept calling for to be fired year after year? And what the Hell does that have to do with making the forum a better place? Does incessant, non-stop whining and complaining about the OC for years make this a more enjoyable place to post and read?

Comparing the 2002 Cleveland Browns offense to the 2011 Steelers offense is so ridiculously inept and irrelevant that it's beyond absurd. It's so dumb it's offensive. In fact, your argument is so absurd, it's actually probably literally the opposite of the facts. The fact is that Arians squeezed SUPERIOR production out of that offense (21.5 PPG vs. Steelers 20.3 PPG) despite having an equally or even more shitty line, nobody at QB, and virtually zero at the skill positions. In fact, the guy should get a medal for getting the very most from the very least.

I don't have any more to say on this subject. I'm going to try to stay away from you, but I also know when you start arrogantly pontificating again on the failures of our NEW OC (and that is as inevitable as the sun rising in the East), and how much better you could run things, it will be difficult.

[Pristas]

Suit is just pissy because of Zu, and Zu is all upset because of Suit, and Gonzo is just catching shrapnel from the whole thing. When will all of this madness end? I can't wait until training camp starts and that dude writes up his play by play analysis... what's his name?

Anyway, I agree with Steeldude on this. Mendy dances too much and hasn't shown that he can take a hit. He's not football tough, correct that,he's not Pittsburgh football tough. Now I agree he has had to dance because of a porous line, but seriously, sometimes I wish he'd just stop, dive forward for the one yard loss instead of falling backwards for the -3. He has always driven me nuts watching him. And he's probably equally frustrated. Now Redman will get to march in and be the hero behind a probowl quality line. It's not fair, but that's football in the NFL. If the line is as good as it promises to be, when Mendy returns, things could get crazy because he plays a different speed. This could be huge advantage for us heading into the playoffs with a fresh legged Mendenhall and a line that may have finally gelled. Oh, and just for fun, reverse to Rainey... TD! It will happen, mark my words.

[suitanim]

What does Zu have to do with any of this? I've seen him admit he's wrong before, and that's really all I ask.

Zu is cool moe dee with me...

[Pristas]

What does Zu have to do with any of this? I've seen him admit he's wrong before, and that's really all I ask.

Zu is cool moe dee with me...

I thought he was going to reach through the interwebs and choke you last night. Ha!

[Count Steeler]

I thought he was going to reach through the interwebs and choke you last night. Ha!

What did I miss? What thread?

[suitanim]

Yeah, cuz, like....I wasn't even on the board the night in question....

[zulater]

I thought he was going to reach through the interwebs and choke you last night. Ha!

I think you may have confused Suit with Chidi. :lol: He ( Chidi) and I were going at it a bit the other night, but we're cool as always in the end. :tea:

By the way this is my first response in this thread, so clearly Pristas has me confused with someone else.