D Smith is Hurting the People He Represents

[Chidi29]

For those that complain about Roger Goodell and what a terrible guy he is, I don't know how you don't talk about NFLPA President Demaurice Smith even more. He is the real villian here.

Great piece of National Football Post today talking about him.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Should-we-continue-to-buy-De-Smiths-rhetoric.html

Some highlights from the article.

On March 7th of this year, Smith announced through the NFLPA website that they would be conducting their own independent investigation of the BountyGate scandal

Five months later, and Smith and the NFLPA have yet to get around to conducting their own investigation.

------

Last August, the NFLPA and NFL issued a joint statement, announcing that they had included in the new CBA testing of NFL players for HGH.

The 2011 NFL season came and went without a single player being tested for HGH.

Prior to the Super Bowl in February, Smith finally commented publicly on the delay

“No one will bully us into a test. No one will force the players to accept something that’s unfair. How could we?”

Rather than agreeing to the Olympic testing procedures, Smith eventually convinced the NFL to consent to a “population study” to “help establish a consensus as to what constitutes a positive test result”.

--------

De Smith is the same man that went on WFAN in New York on March 17, 2011 during the lockout, and made the following statement to host Mike Francesa:

“Teams pay nothing to former player pensions right now, and it’s been that way since 19… it’s been that way since history…

The NFL has been funding the pensions for vested, retired players since 1959. I certainly feel as though they can and should do more. But just to throw some numbers at you, the NFL contributed a total of $354 million in 2009 and 2010 to the retired player’s pensions.

----------

Former Buffalo Safety Jeff Nixon of NFL Alumni pointed out, “De Smith has been telling this fairy tale for so long, members of the media are starting to believe it.”

-----------


I saw a report on concussions on Outside the Lines on the 22nd. The video isn't up on their site, only a short preview exists, but here is the audio file which works just fine. Basically, it talks about the HITS system created to measure concussions. It has not been implemented by the league yet with the piece discussing what it hasn't been. Even has a short interview with Hines Ward so hey, something for Steelers' fans.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=8085522

There are some parts that make the NFL look bad. As I've always said, I'm not on a "side". The NFL referred OTL to Kevin Guskiewicz, who is on the NFL's Head, Neck, and Spine Committee, and wants the system implemented, to ask him why the system isn't implemented. Doesn't make much sense, no.

But the most striking part comes in at 6:30 mark. According to Guskiewicz, there was a pilot program set to start in 2010. 8 teams would be involved and it was so close that the helmets were already made. As Guskiewicz explains, the pilot was pulled at the "11th hour" because it got "bogged down in the politics of it".

The story says a source close to the situation said that the NFLPA canned the idea. Not the league. This sounds similar to the HGH situation talked about in the NFP article. The players' association wanted to flex its muscle, forcing the NFL to stop something and go back to do more research even though it's been tested and recommended. All this at the expense of player safety.

And now, we see the NFLPA suing the league left and right. They just filed another lawsuit, basically saying that they want to reverse the ruling of the INDEPENDENT ARBITRAITOR that let Goodell hear the appeals of Vilma and company.

D Smith has made it clear he has no interest in player safety. If anyone needs to go, it's him.

[silver & black]

Do you own a Goodell jersey?; :chuckle:

[Chidi29]

Do you own a Goodell jersey?; :chuckle:

Got it for $20 off borntrade. :chuckle:

[Count Steeler]

Just because D Smith is a moron doesn't exonerate Goodell. However, I agree, I did not like D Smith from the first time I saw him. I did not like the way he conducted negotiations and I don't like the way he "sticks up" for the players he is supposed to represent.

[Chidi29]

Just because D Smith is a moron doesn't exonerate Goodell. However, I agree, I did not like D Smith from the first time I saw him. I did not like the way he conducted negotiations and I don't like the way he "sticks up" for the players he is supposed to represent.

I never said it exonerated Goodell. But how often do you see someone on here being critical of Smith? It happened a few times during the lockout but after that, little to nothing.

How often is someone critical of Goodell? I don't think I need to answer that.

Fact is the NFLPA is a hurdle the NFL has to constantly overcome in order to try and make progress.

[SteelGhost]

Just because D Smith is a moron doesn't exonerate Goodell. However, I agree, I did not like D Smith from the first time I saw him. I did not like the way he conducted negotiations and I don't like the way he "sticks up" for the players he is supposed to represent.

^THIS

[Count Steeler]

I never said it exonerated Goodell. But how often do you see someone on here being critical of Smith? It happened a few times during the lockout but after that, little to nothing.

How often is someone critical of Goodell? I don't think I need to answer that.

Fact is the NFLPA is a hurdle the NFL has to constantly overcome in order to try and make progress.

Smith is a nobody and has very little power. He can't even sway Goodell to release evidence from the New Orleans Bountygate without going to court. He just pokes his head out of his ass once in a while to get some fresh air.

[Chidi29]

Smith is a nobody and has very little power. He can't even sway Goodell to release evidence from the New Orleans Bountygate without going to court. He just pokes his head out of his ass once in a while to get some fresh air.

Apparently he's had enough power to stop HGH testing that was put into the CBA and stop some of the league's attempted safety measures.

[bayz101]

Choosing between Goodell and Smith is like choosing between cat shit and dog shit.

[vader29]

Do you own a Goodell jersey?; :chuckle:


Got it for $20 off borntrade. :chuckle:

:heh:

http://i49.tinypic.com/14acvq1.jpg

[X-Terminator]

This is what happens when you put a lawyer in charge of a labor organization. Smith is an absolute moron and the players are soon going to regret hiring him.

[Chidi29]

This is what happens when you put a lawyer in charge of a labor organization. Smith is an absolute moron and the players are soon going to regret hiring him.

And when players talk about not being happy with signing away certain things in the CBA, it falls on Smith's shoulders.

[Count Steeler]

Apparently he's had enough power to stop HGH testing that was put into the CBA and stop some of the league's attempted safety measures.

I question that he has any power. Smith is Goodell's bitch. The only reason there is no HGH testing is because Goodell does not need HGH testing, he only needed to show that the league was pushing for HGH testing and the head of the NFLPA put a stop to it. Culpability avoidance. Goodell is a master at it.

How does HGH testing help the league? If it is a wide spread problem, it is a major black eye on the league and players will have to be suspended and replacement players brought in. It just looks bad on everyone, ala the steroid era of baseball.

If it is not a major problem, then who cares?

Now, however, if players decide to bring a lawsuit against the league, they are dead in the water, because their own union put a block on the testing. Smith did not "win" anything. Goodell played him like a fiddle.

[86WARD]

Goodell's a major player, Smith is a nobody. Hence the reason Goodell gets more shit than Smith...no one gives a shit about the head of the NFLPA...

[tube517]

D Smith is worthless. I don't see anybody supporting this clown. He is just another puppet in the whole business side of football

[fansince'76]

I question that he has any power. Smith is Goodell's bitch. The only reason there is no HGH testing is because Goodell does not need HGH testing, he only needed to show that the league was pushing for HGH testing and the head of the NFLPA put a stop to it. Culpability avoidance. Goodell is a master at it.

Either that, or they'll eventually wind up testing a few players who are using it and go completely overboard in making an example of them in the hope that the whole thing goes away, kind of like what has happened with the Saints. He's a master at that too.

The fact that DeMaurice Smith is a turd doesn't make Goodell any less of one.

[Chidi29]

I question that he has any power. Smith is Goodell's bitch. The only reason there is no HGH testing is because Goodell does not need HGH testing, he only needed to show that the league was pushing for HGH testing and the head of the NFLPA put a stop to it. Culpability avoidance. Goodell is a master at it.

How does HGH testing help the league? If it is a wide spread problem, it is a major black eye on the league and players will have to be suspended and replacement players brought in. It just looks bad on everyone, ala the steroid era of baseball.

If it is not a major problem, then who cares?

Now, however, if players decide to bring a lawsuit against the league, they are dead in the water, because their own union put a block on the testing. Smith did not "win" anything. Goodell played him like a fiddle.

Did you read anything I wrote in my OP?

The point isn't the fact that HGH testing isn't going on. It's the NFLPA blocking every move the NFL is trying to make.

The NFLPA was the reason why we don't have more safety measures. Lord knows what other safety issues they've canned and sent back for more testing.

[Count Steeler]

Did you read anything I wrote in my OP?

The point isn't the fact that HGH testing isn't going on. It's the NFLPA blocking every move the NFL is trying to make.

The NFLPA was the reason why we don't have more safety measures. Lord knows what other safety issues they've canned and sent back for more testing.

IF HGH is agreed to in the CBA, Smith may object, but the process is allowed for, so if Goodell really wanted HGH testing, he could force the issue.


Goodell said he doesn't believe the NFL will need Congress to intervene.


"Again, we agreed to it, so I'm hopeful we can all live up to our agreements and get it done," he said.

"I respect the fact we want to have a valid test. We didn't initially wrap our arms around this test when it was created in 2004, but there's seven years of history, a lot of science, a lot of medicine is behind it. And we're comfortable that this is a valid test. We respect the fact that the players' association wants to have confidence in that, too. They have access to all the information we have and should be in a position to be able to be confident in that."


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823f5b6e/article/goodell-disappointed-hgh-testing-hasnt-begun-still-optimistic

Doesn't sound like Goodell is motivated to have HGH testing implemented any time soon. Goodell has a lot of buttons to push via media, congress, the courts etc. to bring pressure on the NFLPA, if he wanted to.

[Count Steeler]

The thing is Chidi, I don't see anyone on this board willing to defend Smith. Goodell has the real power and he is using it to change the game into his vision of what football should be. A money making machine where culpability is minimized on the part of the owners.

If I was a player, I would be making noise to get Smith replaced because he is not advancing the player's cause one iota.

[Chidi29]

IF HGH is agreed to in the CBA, Smith may object, but the process is allowed for, so if Goodell really wanted HGH testing, he could force the issue.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d823f5b6e/article/goodell-disappointed-hgh-testing-hasnt-begun-still-optimistic

Doesn't sound like Goodell is motivated to have HGH testing implemented any time soon. Goodell has a lot of buttons to push via media, congress, the courts etc. to bring pressure on the NFLPA, if he wanted to.

He was motivated enough to have it written into the CBA. And at a time where it was easy to put the small stuff aside to get the deal done, this must have been fairly important.

I don't know how what you quoted makes it seem like Goodell isn't motivated. He said they agreed to it and that it should be implemented. And that it's now a reliable test (also backed up by what was written in the NFP article).

[Chidi29]

The thing is Chidi, I don't see anyone on this board willing to defend Smith. Goodell has the real power and he is using it to change the game into his vision of what football should be. A money making machine where culpability is minimized on the part of the owners.

If I was a player, I would be making noise to get Smith replaced because he is not advancing the player's cause one iota.

Because everyone already has their hooks in Goodell. It just shows how stubborn people are. God forbid there's anyone else to blame than him. I mean, why do we even have a NFLPA if they're all just puppets and have zero power (except for all the parts where they have power as I've shown). Why even have a league? Just call the RGA. Roger Goodell Association.

All I've been trying to say is that there is another force at work here. DeMaurice Smith is as doing just as much harm to the league as most on here think Goodell is doing to it. Goodell gets flack for not implementing enough safety measures when he apparently can't even get past the organization that is supposed to protect the players it represents, the NFLPA.

All those player comments about how they think Goodell has too much power? Sounds like shots at Smith for giving them a raw deal.

[Aussie_steeler]

I respect you for one thing throughout all this Goodell debate.

You have kept your digital footprint very clean in respect to future employment in the NFL. I know you are studying sports journalism at College and it is your lifes goal to work in the NFL media. Great goal and best of luck in your pursuit of it. I just hope your opinions are honest and genuine and that you are not using us to develop a volume of work that demonstrates your perceived impartiallity or even worse allegiance to the company line.


I have chosen not to respond to many of your posts lately because I am extremely dubious about your intent. I will always respond to your posts in the war room because I know they are your real opinions. ( You can never be accused of any wrong for having a draft opinion).

I know you are a genuine Pittsburgh steelers fan.
I know you are a genuine draft geek.
I know you are an aspiring journalist.
I know you write extremely well and always present well researched posts.

I just dont know if your are being 100% true to this board or to yourself.

[Count Steeler]

All those player comments about how they think Goodell has too much power? Sounds like shots at Smith for giving them a raw deal.

I agree, and I would hope they are starting to realize that the Steelers were right in voting to reject this CBA.

As far as Goodell being motivated, if he was REALLY concerned about having the HGH clause adhered to, he could take further steps, instead of just saying, "oh well, we bargained for it and we have a good system, but the NFLPA is dragging their heels." He should(could) bring pressure onto the NFLPA and force their hand. Clearly this is not an issue he is willing to go to the hilt on.

[BigNastyDefense]

Chidi, Smith doesn't suspend players, fine players, or cause the referees to double think themselves. Goodell does that.

When Smith was hired to head the NFLPA, I knew it was a mistake. Because he is a straight pit bull lawyer. He wasn't interested in keeping labor peace by coming to an agreement on a new CBA anytime soon. He was, IMHO, willing to miss a massive chunk of the season.

His stance was that the NFLPA wasn't going to give up anything, therefore the owners were ready to hold out and break the union.

He said that he wasn't going to do anything to lower rookie wages. And for a while, he stood pat on that. Even with current players (you know, the ones he represents) telling him that rookie wages needed to be scaled back, he didn't want to. It took a while for the players to get it across to him that this is something they actually agreed with on the owners.

He doesn't care about his constituents. He cares about himself, and he cares about making the NFL and the owners look bad.

I actually felt bad for Goodell during the lockout. Because he had no power there. He couldn't force the owners to concede on anything, all he was, was the owner's mouthpiece. He could encourage things, but nobody had to listen to him. He was getting blasted by the fans, but he had no control over the situation.

Smith is a douchebag, Goodell is a douchebag. They both fucking suck. However, Goodell directly effects the play on the field by the way he punishes players.

[Chidi29]

I respect you for one thing throughout all this Goodell debate.

You have kept your digital footprint very clean in respect to future employment in the NFL. I know you are studying sports journalism at College and it is your lifes goal to work in the NFL media. Great goal and best of luck in your pursuit of it. I just hope your opinions are honest and genuine and that you are not using us to develop a volume of work that demonstrates your perceived impartiallity or even worse allegiance to the company line.


I have chosen not to respond to many of your posts lately because I am extremely dubious about your intent. I will always respond to your posts in the war room because I know they are your real opinions. ( You can never be accused of any wrong for having a draft opinion).

I know you are a genuine Pittsburgh steelers fan.
I know you are a genuine draft geek.
I know you are an aspiring journalist.
I know you write extremely well and always present well researched posts.

I just dont know if your are being 100% true to this board or to yourself.

If you think I'm geniune about everything else, why would you doubt this so much?

It's hard for me to imagine that there are only two options for people on this board.

1. Hate Goodell with a passion or...
2. You're lying

What I say about Goodell isn't likely to have any sort of effect on me in the future. If Mark Madden can still have a job after the asinine comments he makes on a routine basis, I can get one too no matter what I think or say about Goodell. I don't have any aspirations to work directly with the league anyway. And even if I did, the chances of me actually getting there are pretty slim.

If I wanted to be a journalist (it's broadcasting concentrated, for the record), and I'm not able to tell the truth for fear of how people will react, I should switch careers. If you think I'm being dishonest, go ahead and tell me that in your reply.

I would write a little more, but I don't see the point. I thought a guy like you, who I respect as much as anyone on here, would be willing to listen to my argument instead of attacking the person. Guess not.

[Chidi29]

I agree, and I would hope they are starting to realize that the Steelers were right in voting to reject this CBA.

As far as Goodell being motivated, if he was REALLY concerned about having the HGH clause adhered to, he could take further steps, instead of just saying, "oh well, we bargained for it and we have a good system, but the NFLPA is dragging their heels." He should(could) bring pressure onto the NFLPA and force their hand. Clearly this is not an issue he is willing to go to the hilt on.

The NFLPA has a lot of power, too. Especially with something that has a direct affect on the players.

Again, my whole point is not about the specifics of HGH testing. It is the fact the NFLPA has routinely blocked the NFL, creating delay about delay.

Answer me this Count. Let's look at the other specific parts I talked about. Why did Smith lie about the pensions? Why did they block the HITS system?

[Count Steeler]

Chidi, if I were to venture a guess, the pension mantra has been around for a while. There was a time when the NFL did NOT take care of their players. To say nothing was given when it can be proven that money was set aside by the NFL, then that is just lying or ignorance. Either way he is pandering for more money for the pensions and trying to make the NFL look bad.

As far as the HITS program, I would have to say I don't know enough to comment. On the surface, seems like a foolish move on Smith's part.

I will say that the NFLPA, like the NHLPA, are quite idiotic in their approach in "protecting" their players. There is something to be said about the assertion that players don't respect one another as much as they used to. Thus we see more and more cheap shots and dangerous hits. As a fraternity, the players should be self policing and self respecting, realizing that if they don't respect each other, then their own careers are threatened to be shortened unnecessarily.

[Count Steeler]

Again, though, Goodell can bear more pressure on Smith to get some of these measures implemented. Not sure if the HITS was in the CBA, but the HGH issue should certainly be escalated by Goodell. But I suspect they are allowing some time to pass so that the majority of the players will not test positive when tested for HGH.

[Count Steeler]

I respect you for one thing throughout all this Goodell debate.

You have kept your digital footprint very clean in respect to future employment in the NFL. I know you are studying sports journalism at College and it is your lifes goal to work in the NFL media. Great goal and best of luck in your pursuit of it. I just hope your opinions are honest and genuine and that you are not using us to develop a volume of work that demonstrates your perceived impartiallity or even worse allegiance to the company line.


I have chosen not to respond to many of your posts lately because I am extremely dubious about your intent. I will always respond to your posts in the war room because I know they are your real opinions. ( You can never be accused of any wrong for having a draft opinion).

I know you are a genuine Pittsburgh steelers fan.
I know you are a genuine draft geek.
I know you are an aspiring journalist.
I know you write extremely well and always present well researched posts.

I just dont know if your are being 100% true to this board or to yourself.

Let's be careful here. I have never doubted Chidi's sincerity, nor questioned his intent. In fact, he makes some good points for Goodell's positive attributes, yes he does have some.

If you want to respond to Chidi's points, then go ahead, but let's not get personal.

[BigNastyDefense]

Chidi, maybe Smith is blocking the HGH testing because he knows there is a lot of use in the NFL & he doesn't want his players testing positive. I remember reading something that said testing wouldn't be implemented until later, like the 2013 season or so when the agreed to it anyhow. Do you know how bad that would look for the NFL if they implement the testing and a high number of players, especially star players, tested positive?

As for the HITS system, I don't know enough about the entire situation to really say why that might have been scrapped.

[Count Steeler]

Chidi, maybe Smith is blocking the HGH testing because he knows there is a lot of use in the NFL & he doesn't want his players testing positive. I remember reading something that said testing wouldn't be implemented until later, like the 2013 season or so when the agreed to it anyhow. Do you know how bad that would look for the NFL if they implement the testing and a high number of players, especially star players, tested positive?

As for the HITS system, I don't know enough about the entire situation to really say why that might have been scrapped.

That is exactly what I suspect. Imagine if 50% of the linemen are suddenly suspended. Think Congress won't start a witch hunt like they did with the steriods scandal in baseball?

The clause is in the CBA for culpability avoidance, but the actual implementation has to be done when the players are "ready".

[steeldawg]

The HITS system was scrapped because the players do not want a computer making a decision on wether they should stay in the game or not. Also because it would hurt the players as far as contract value and length of contracts, it would also potentially shorten careers for older players. If the HITS system is registering a player to have significant head trauma 2 or 3 times a season teams maybe less likely to give that player a long term contract.

[Aussie_steeler]

If you think I'm geniune about everything else, why would you doubt this so much?

It's hard for me to imagine that there are only two options for people on this board.

1. Hate Goodell with a passion or...
2. You're lying

What I say about Goodell isn't likely to have any sort of effect on me in the future. If Mark Madden can still have a job after the asinine comments he makes on a routine basis, I can get one too no matter what I think or say about Goodell. I don't have any aspirations to work directly with the league anyway. And even if I did, the chances of me actually getting there are pretty slim.

If I wanted to be a journalist (it's broadcasting concentrated, for the record), and I'm not able to tell the truth for fear of how people will react, I should switch careers. If you think I'm being dishonest, go ahead and tell me that in your reply.

I would write a little more, but I don't see the point. I thought a guy like you, who I respect as much as anyone on here, would be willing to listen to my argument instead of attacking the person. Guess not.

I am questioning your intent.

( It is a lose - lose situation for me to ask the original question. However it is a question that I have harboured for a long while and I am finally not afraid to ask it. If I cant ask it then I might as well not post here. You have ridden my arse harder than anyone when it comes to draft opinions and early on in your posting here you went after me hard. I copped it regularly from you and moved on, after reflecting with what you had said.)

Regarding the so called two options on this board - I dont fit either.
I dont like Goodell because I believe he is an autocrat with way to much power, but I dont hate him.
I am not a liar.
I am a fan of the game who loves what happens on the field and in the clubhouse. Bureaucrats are killing all sport in my opinion as they move sports away from the grassroots.

The reply you have given me shows passion and courage. I can see that. I cannot do anything more than take it for what it is worth and move on.

THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING AND I AM SORRY IF YOU FEEL THAT I ATTACKED YOU PERSONALLY.


I am not after cheap thrills, pats on the back and cheap laughs from the posters here. I just want to see the intent of those who post to see if this is still a community I want to contribute to.

Unfortunately things evolve. If the NFL is going to head in this direction, and if this is what the new generation of fans want, then I am afraid it might be time for me to move on.

Might be time to find an old school board with fellow old farts like myself.

[Chidi29]

Chidi, Smith doesn't suspend players, fine players, or cause the referees to double think themselves. Goodell does that.

When Smith was hired to head the NFLPA, I knew it was a mistake. Because he is a straight pit bull lawyer. He wasn't interested in keeping labor peace by coming to an agreement on a new CBA anytime soon. He was, IMHO, willing to miss a massive chunk of the season.

His stance was that the NFLPA wasn't going to give up anything, therefore the owners were ready to hold out and break the union.

He said that he wasn't going to do anything to lower rookie wages. And for a while, he stood pat on that. Even with current players (you know, the ones he represents) telling him that rookie wages needed to be scaled back, he didn't want to. It took a while for the players to get it across to him that this is something they actually agreed with on the owners.

He doesn't care about his constituents. He cares about himself, and he cares about making the NFL and the owners look bad.

I actually felt bad for Goodell during the lockout. Because he had no power there. He couldn't force the owners to concede on anything, all he was, was the owner's mouthpiece. He could encourage things, but nobody had to listen to him. He was getting blasted by the fans, but he had no control over the situation.

Smith is a douchebag, Goodell is a douchebag. They both fucking suck. However, Goodell directly effects the play on the field by the way he punishes players.

So we've established that Smith is a "pitbull lawyer" who "wasn't interested in keeping labor peace" that "doesn't care about his constituents" that ulimately, "cares about making the NFL and the owners look bad."

A guy that made you feel bad for Roger Goodell, a "douchebag".

Imagine all that...now imagine you having to work with him. Sounds pretty difficult, right? I know no one likes to say it, but it's tough being Roger Goodell. It's the ultimate lose-lose job.

Granted, I realize you could spin the argument the same way for Smith workiing for Goodell. But for me personally, like I've said all along, Goodell isn't as bad as he's made out to be.

[Chidi29]

Chidi, if I were to venture a guess, the pension mantra has been around for a while. There was a time when the NFL did NOT take care of their players. To say nothing was given when it can be proven that money was set aside by the NFL, then that is just lying or ignorance. Either way he is pandering for more money for the pensions and trying to make the NFL look bad.

As far as the HITS program, I would have to say I don't know enough to comment. On the surface, seems like a foolish move on Smith's part.

I will say that the NFLPA, like the NHLPA, are quite idiotic in their approach in "protecting" their players. There is something to be said about the assertion that players don't respect one another as much as they used to. Thus we see more and more cheap shots and dangerous hits. As a fraternity, the players should be self policing and self respecting, realizing that if they don't respect each other, then their own careers are threatened to be shortened unnecessarily.

Let's be honest. No one on this board knows enough to comment on 99% of what Roger Goodell does. We're fans, we're the outsiders. We don't know the inner-workings of the league and what takes place.

So it's frustrating to me when people jump on Goodell for not doing enough of this, or doing too much of that. But it seems that is the only situation where that answer is acceptable.

[Chidi29]

The HITS system was scrapped because the players do not want a computer making a decision on wether they should stay in the game or not. Also because it would hurt the players as far as contract value and length of contracts, it would also potentially shorten careers for older players. If the HITS system is registering a player to have significant head trauma 2 or 3 times a season teams maybe less likely to give that player a long term contract.

First, it wouldn't completely say whether or not a player would have to come out. Ultimately, those decisions will be made by the doctors and trainers. They still have to interept the data to go along with all the other resources they have at their disposal. This system is already in place in college and has been for a long time. We haven't seen any serious consequences like what you talk about.

And sorry if it will hurt the player's wallet. For a group that is supposed to do what is in the best interest of the players, I guess only one side has that at the forefront. And it isn't the union.

[fansince'76]

For a group that is supposed to do what is in the best interest of the players, I guess only one side has that at the forefront. And it isn't the union.

It isn't management, either. Not when they talk out of both sides of their mouths in regards to "player safety" while at the same time pushing for 18-game seasons and more Thursday night games. They only care about their own liability in the end and couldn't give a rat's ass less about the best interest of the players.

[Chidi29]

I am questioning your intent.

( It is a lose - lose situation for me to ask the original question. However it is a question that I have harboured for a long while and I am finally not afraid to ask it. If I cant ask it then I might as well not post here. You have ridden my arse harder than anyone when it comes to draft opinions and early on in your posting here you went after me hard. I copped it regularly from you and moved on, after reflecting with what you had said.)

Regarding the so called two options on this board - I dont fit either.
I dont like Goodell because I believe he is an autocrat with way to much power, but I dont hate him.
I am not a liar.
I am a fan of the game who loves what happens on the field and in the clubhouse. Bureaucrats are killing all sport in my opinion as they move sports away from the grassroots.

The reply you have given me shows passion and courage. I can see that. I cannot do anything more than take it for what it is worth and move on.

THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING AND I AM SORRY IF YOU FEEL THAT I ATTACKED YOU PERSONALLY.


I am not after cheap thrills, pats on the back and cheap laughs from the posters here. I just want to see the intent of those who post to see if this is still a community I want to contribute to.

Unfortunately things evolve. If the NFL is going to head in this direction, and if this is what the new generation of fans want, then I am afraid it might be time for me to move on.

Might be time to find an old school board with fellow old farts like myself.

You can ask the question. You have the right to do that. But come on, did you really expect me not to take some offense to being called out? You know a lot of people would have absloutely rip into you if you call them out. I didn't because I understand your position and again, I respect you.

Let me make one thing clear because I think I failed to in my reply.

I am not calling you a liar, Aussie. That was poor word choice on my part. Let me try again.

My point was that I feel like I have two choices on this board.

1. Hate Goodell like everyone else.
2. Be called a liar for defending him. When I said "You're lying", it was supposed to read as someone saying to me, "You're lying".

I am not accusing you as being a liar.

And I understand your questioning just comes from your love of the game and the fear of it being taken away. I don't agree with that fear but I do understand it (that goes for everyone else on the board).

----------

This is my dilemma. Assume for a second I am being sincere about my defense of Goodell (and as an aside, I have been critical of Goodell and the league in the past).

How am I supposed to convince you of that? What am I supposed to say or do to convey my sincerity? That's the part that really gets me. I attempt to do as much research as I can.

If you can read it, look at some of the things listed in my favorites.

http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg608/Chidi2929/Favorites_2.png

http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg608/Chidi2929/Favorites_1.png

To be frank, this is too much work and reading for me to make up. If I wanted to lie, I'd make the workload much lighter.

So please, sincerely Aussie, what am I supposed to do? It's tough enough to be virtually the only one on here who has my opinion (I think Nadoj is the next closest). It's nearly impossible if I can't be taken seriously.

[Chidi29]

It isn't management, either. Not when they talk out of both sides of their mouths in regards to "player safety" while at the same time pushing for 18-game seasons and more Thursday night games. They only care about their own liability in the end and couldn't give a rat's ass less about the best interest of the players.

Like I said, Goodell put the decision of an 18 game season entirely in the union's hands. Even when he had total control over the situation.

But yes, I agree. The league is a business and that comes before the players. It's just too bad that the union isn't at least sticking up for them. And at the least the league is trying to implement safety measures and not delay them by two or three years.

[Nadroj 20]

Chidi, you are correct I probably am the next closest to your opinion mainly because I tty to look at both sides of everything

I think the reason is because all of your posts are so well researched and very well written. If anything Chidi's post have made me open my mind up more to the idea that it is necessary to take a step back to see if Goodell is as bad as many appear to believe.

Trust me I've had my issues with Goodell but I also like to acknowledge when something may not be all on him.

[Nadroj 20]

I have been more of a reader of late instead of posting because I haven't been on a computer in awhile and I've been posting from my cell phone which i haven't got used to so naturally hate it.

[Chidi29]

Chidi, you are correct I probably am the next closest to your opinion mainly because I tty to look at both sides of everything

I think the reason is because all of your posts are so well researched and very well written. If anything Chidi's post have made me open my mind up more to the idea that it is necessary to take a step back to see if Goodell is as bad as many appear to believe.

Trust me I've had my issues with Goodell but I also like to acknowledge when something may not be all on him.

And that's all I'm asking for. I realize this board will never be pro Goodell, singing songs about him around the campfire. But I'd like for people to at least look at and consider the other side.

[X-Terminator]

And that's all I'm asking for. I realize this board will never be pro Goodell, singing songs about him around the campfire. But I'd like for people to at least look at and consider the other side.

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen for me, at least (I won't speak for anyone else), because I refuse to compromise my old-school fandom with some new-school bureaucratic BS with Goodell leading the way. It's the same thing for me with the NHL. Like Aussie said, bureaucrats (and lawyers) are killing the sports that I have loved all my life, and it won't be long until I won't recognize them anymore. And when that happens, the only sport I will watch is major league baseball, which is the only major sport left that seems to give a shit about tradition.

[suitanim]

I had many, many complaints about Smith from the day he was hired. Basically, the players wanted him because they wanted a pitbull. Here's the problem with that...

In many union/management scenarios, there is an artificial air of tension and escalating "pull" at conflicting purposes. It's hard to explain, but instead of both sides starting sort of in the middle and working out a compromise, when one side or the other (or both) utilize this pitbull strategy, they create an artificial hostility that makes the negotiations far harsher than they need to be. Say we're talking about a factory with union workers and the new contract with management is coming up, and the union wants to get more "aggressive" with management, so they hire a guy like Smith. The workers want a 5% increase in pay and a 3% increase in money the company will kick in for insurance premiums to offset increases in out-of-pocket expenses. The company was prepared to give them that (or close) from the onset because they've been profitbale and things are good.

But the pitbull comes in and thinks "well, they probably don't want to give 5 and 3, so I'll ask for 12 and 7, and them they'll come down and meet me". So the union goes in and asks for 12 and 7, and management refuses. THEN it gets ugly, because the union starts in with this "The management is greedy and hates the working man", and all the management did was refuse an outrageous increase that the union never even wanted in the first place. Then it escalates, yada yada yada, and pretty soon the union wants 10 and 6 and WON'T Budge or they will strike.

I'm not saying this is that, just illustrating how two idiots are usually worse than one...and since all of us (but one) know that Goodell is an asshat, and mots of us know Smith isn't much better, this is no surprise...

[NCSteeler]

I had many, many complaints about Smith from the day he was hired. Basically, the players wanted him because they wanted a pitbull. Here's the problem with that...

In many union/management scenarios, there is an artificial air of tension and escalating "pull" at conflicting purposes. It's hard to explain, but instead of both sides starting sort of in the middle and working out a compromise, when one side or the other (or both) utilize this pitbull strategy, they create an artificial hostility that makes the negotiations far harsher than they need to be. Say we're talking about a factory with union workers and the new contract with management is coming up, and the union wants to get more "aggressive" with management, so they hire a guy like Smith. The workers want a 5% increase in pay and a 3% increase in money the company will kick in for insurance premiums to offset increases in out-of-pocket expenses. The company was prepared to give them that (or close) from the onset because they've been profitbale and things are good.

But the pitbull comes in and thinks "well, they probably don't want to give 5 and 3, so I'll ask for 12 and 7, and them they'll come down and meet me". So the union goes in and asks for 12 and 7, and management refuses. THEN it gets ugly, because the union starts in with this "The management is greedy and hates the working man", and all the management did was refuse an outrageous increase that the union never even wanted in the first place. Then it escalates, yada yada yada, and pretty soon the union wants 10 and 6 and WON'T Budge or they will strike.

I'm not saying this is that, just illustrating how two idiots are usually worse than one...and since all of us (but one) know that Goodell is an asshat, and mots of us know Smith isn't much better, this is no surprise...

While we have had our problems, this post is spot on.

[steeldawg]

First, it wouldn't completely say whether or not a player would have to come out. Ultimately, those decisions will be made by the doctors and trainers. They still have to interept the data to go along with all the other resources they have at their disposal. This system is already in place in college and has been for a long time. We haven't seen any serious consequences like what you talk about.

And sorry if it will hurt the player's wallet. For a group that is supposed to do what is in the best interest of the players, I guess only one side has that at the forefront. And it isn't the union.

Yes I agree I understand how the HITS system works im just telling you why the nflpa blocked it from being implemented, its strictly about player contracts. They dont care about safety its all about players getting the longest deals and the most money possible.

[Chidi29]

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen for me, at least (I won't speak for anyone else), because I refuse to compromise my old-school fandom with some new-school bureaucratic BS with Goodell leading the way. It's the same thing for me with the NHL. Like Aussie said, bureaucrats (and lawyers) are killing the sports that I have loved all my life, and it won't be long until I won't recognize them anymore. And when that happens, the only sport I will watch is major league baseball, which is the only major sport left that seems to give a shit about tradition.

I still maintain that thought is the same every generation has had since the game started. It's the same thing as Grandpa saying, "Things were better back in my day". It's more nostalgia than anything else.

In regards to player safety, tradition means nothing.

[Chidi29]

I had many, many complaints about Smith from the day he was hired. Basically, the players wanted him because they wanted a pitbull. Here's the problem with that...

In many union/management scenarios, there is an artificial air of tension and escalating "pull" at conflicting purposes. It's hard to explain, but instead of both sides starting sort of in the middle and working out a compromise, when one side or the other (or both) utilize this pitbull strategy, they create an artificial hostility that makes the negotiations far harsher than they need to be. Say we're talking about a factory with union workers and the new contract with management is coming up, and the union wants to get more "aggressive" with management, so they hire a guy like Smith. The workers want a 5% increase in pay and a 3% increase in money the company will kick in for insurance premiums to offset increases in out-of-pocket expenses. The company was prepared to give them that (or close) from the onset because they've been profitbale and things are good.

But the pitbull comes in and thinks "well, they probably don't want to give 5 and 3, so I'll ask for 12 and 7, and them they'll come down and meet me". So the union goes in and asks for 12 and 7, and management refuses. THEN it gets ugly, because the union starts in with this "The management is greedy and hates the working man", and all the management did was refuse an outrageous increase that the union never even wanted in the first place. Then it escalates, yada yada yada, and pretty soon the union wants 10 and 6 and WON'T Budge or they will strike.

I'm not saying this is that, just illustrating how two idiots are usually worse than one...and since all of us (but one) know that Goodell is an asshat, and mots of us know Smith isn't much better, this is no surprise...

Even if it isn't any surprise, it doesn't make it right. The players' safety is being jepordized just because Smith is trying to show up the league. He is putting himself before the group he represents.

[Chidi29]

Yes I agree I understand how the HITS system works im just telling you why the nflpa blocked it from being implemented, its strictly about player contracts. They dont care about safety its all about players getting the longest deals and the most money possible.

And like I told suit, why is this not on the forefront of problems?

The NFLPA doesn't care about its players!

[steeldawg]

And like I told suit, why is this not on the forefront of problems?

The NFLPA doesn't care about its players!

Absolutely, it all comes down to money! What I cant uderstand is how the players do not get most of the criticism rather than Goodell. You have the players who want to play hurt and want head shots and leading with the helmet, but on the other hand they are the ones suing the nfl for the punishment they suffered on the field. The players sue the nfl for not making the game safer and then criticize goodell for trying to make the game safer. Goodell was left with no choice but to crack down on player safety to protect the league from litagation.

[Bluecoat96]

Might be time to find an old school board with fellow old farts like myself.

Don't do it! I rely on your insight, especially during draft time!!!

[Chidi29]

Absolutely, it all comes down to money! What I cant uderstand is how the players do not get most of the criticism rather than Goodell. You have the players who want to play hurt and want head shots and leading with the helmet, but on the other hand they are the ones suing the nfl for the punishment they suffered on the field. The players sue the nfl for not making the game safer and then criticize goodell for trying to make the game safer. Goodell was left with no choice but to crack down on player safety to protect the league from litagation.

And that's what I was going to say. Since he's apparently hated as much as Goodell, why is he talked about so much less?

[BigNastyDefense]

And that's what I was going to say. Since he's apparently hated as much as Goodell, why is he talked about so much less?

Because other than the lockout, a lot of the shit he does is behind the scenes and doesn't make news. It gets a few short lines in the back of the local sports section while James Harrison being suspended a game because Colt McCoy ran the fuck into him is front page news.

Roger Goodell has the power to directly affect the game more than DeMaurice Smith can. Smith doesn't have the power to implement new rules or how current rules are interpreted. Hell, the refereeing has gone to shit more so than usual since he has started his focus on player safety because the refs don't even seem to know what the rules are or how to interpret them anymore. They have no idea what a legal hit is anymore.

And the only reason that I felt bad for that douchebag during the lockout is because he was being blamed for things that he couldn't control. He couldn't force the owners to give a bigger piece of the pie that they wanted, nor could he make the players take less than what they wanted. However a lot of fans seemed to think that the entire lockout was his fault when he doesn't own a team.

[fansince'76]

Hell, the refereeing has gone to shit more so than usual since he has started his focus on player safety because the refs don't even seem to know what the rules are or how to interpret them anymore. They have no idea what a legal hit is anymore.

Oh, you mean how this draws a flag...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZSIXCdBd6o



...and this doesn't?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmyhcozGRr4

Pishaw! The game is better than ever! :sarcasm:

[suitanim]

This is basically escalation. Two guys show up to duel with knives, then one runs off and gets a gun. Then the other guy runs off and brings back a bazooka, then the other guy rolls up in a tank.

Goodell abused his power, so the players hired a Pitbull to fight back, and this is what ensues...BOTH need to go!

[NCSteeler]

And like I told suit, why is this not on the forefront of problems?

The NFLPA doesn't care about its players!

Really the players don't care about the players. They are short sighted and all they ever learned was get as much as you can while you can, worry about the rest later.

[Chidi29]

Because other than the lockout, a lot of the shit he does is behind the scenes and doesn't make news. It gets a few short lines in the back of the local sports section while James Harrison being suspended a game because Colt McCoy ran the fuck into him is front page news.

Roger Goodell has the power to directly affect the game more than DeMaurice Smith can. Smith doesn't have the power to implement new rules or how current rules are interpreted. Hell, the refereeing has gone to shit more so than usual since he has started his focus on player safety because the refs don't even seem to know what the rules are or how to interpret them anymore. They have no idea what a legal hit is anymore.

And the only reason that I felt bad for that douchebag during the lockout is because he was being blamed for things that he couldn't control. He couldn't force the owners to give a bigger piece of the pie that they wanted, nor could he make the players take less than what they wanted. However a lot of fans seemed to think that the entire lockout was his fault when he doesn't own a team.


It's obvious that the union doesn't care about player safety, to the point where they will sacrifice it for their own selfish agenda. So the league is having to do double the work to attempt to protect the players. No wonder Goodell has cracked down so hard. He's the only one who will.

[Chidi29]

Really the players don't care about the players. They are short sighted and all they ever learned was get as much as you can while you can, worry about the rest later.

That is a sad fact but a fact nonetheless. Though it is understandable in a sense when we're talking about player safety. Most players aren't thinking about what is going to happen to their bodies 40 years from now. They're just concerned about living in the moment and making their cash now.

So somebody needs to speak up and not act the same way, no? And the guy that is supposed to do that is sitting on his hands.

[BigNastyDefense]

It's obvious that the union doesn't care about player safety, to the point where they will sacrifice it for their own selfish agenda. So the league is having to do double the work to attempt to protect the players. No wonder Goodell has cracked down so hard. He's the only one who will.

I have no problem with cracking down on the blatant head shots and cheap shots, like the ones Dunta Robinson laid on those two Eagles receivers in consecutive seasons.

However, the general pusification of the game I have a problem with. Tackle football is a violent contact sport, and it seems like Goodell wants scores of 47-42 where defense isn't a factor. Common sense doesn't play into the changes he makes and forces onto the league. I would love to see a receiver fined for dropping his head into the target area instead of the defender fined for a hemlet-to-helmet hit that wasn't his fault.

[Chidi29]

I have no problem with cracking down on the blatant head shots and cheap shots, like the ones Dunta Robinson laid on those two Eagles receivers in consecutive seasons.

However, the general pusification of the game I have a problem with. Tackle football is a violent contact sport, and it seems like Goodell wants scores of 47-42 where defense isn't a factor. Common sense doesn't play into the changes he makes and forces onto the league. I would love to see a receiver fined for dropping his head into the target area instead of the defender fined for a hemlet-to-helmet hit that wasn't his fault.

Again, this is nothing new to the NFL. The league has always looked for new ways to generate more offense. Like I've said in the past, under Pete Rozell, the league implemented the 5 yard chuck and came out and explicitly said that the rule change was implemented to make offenses more explosive.

[steeldawg]

I have no problem with cracking down on the blatant head shots and cheap shots, like the ones Dunta Robinson laid on those two Eagles receivers in consecutive seasons.

However, the general pusification of the game I have a problem with. Tackle football is a violent contact sport, and it seems like Goodell wants scores of 47-42 where defense isn't a factor. Common sense doesn't play into the changes he makes and forces onto the league. I would love to see a receiver fined for dropping his head into the target area instead of the defender fined for a hemlet-to-helmet hit that wasn't his fault.


The players are the ones that sued the nfl for the game not being safe enough. Its goodells job to protect the nfl against litigation, the players say game not safe enough goodell steps up player safety, seems like common sense to me. If the players dont sue the league we probably do not see the rule changes, I doubt goodell has some personal agenda to change the nfl into flag football. Another thing, the owners would never allow goodell to change the game for the worst, they hired goodell to protect the sheild and keep the league profitable and he has. I highly doubt a group of billionaires would sit back and let a guy they hired run their product and investment into the ground.

[Nadroj 20]

I think we all agree that "spearing" should be flagged and that there are sich a thing as illegal hits. What Ive learned to accept and understand is that there is a human factor involved with the refs and there are going to be blown calls on bang bang hits. And I highly doubt over the course of a game when the refs are concerned with officiating they are also thinking about Goodell.



Maybe a step in the right direction is making some of those hits reviewable on the field in some way. Were talking 15 important yards and if it's not illegal then those yards obviously shouldn't be lost. A review gives the refs more looks at it and maybe it'll help the consistency?

[Count Steeler]

I think we all agree that "spearing" should be flagged and that there are sich a thing as illegal hits. What Ive learned to accept and understand is that there is a human factor involved with the refs and there are going to be blown calls on bang bang hits. And I highly doubt over the course of a game when the refs are concerned with officiating they are also thinking about Goodell.



Maybe a step in the right direction is making some of those hits reviewable on the field in some way. Were talking 15 important yards and if it's not illegal then those yards obviously shouldn't be lost. A review gives the refs more looks at it and maybe it'll help the consistency?

I have no problem with the refs missing the odd call and in the interest of keeping the game under 4 hrs., I would want limited reviews.

My biggest problem are with the NFL head office and the reviewers of ALL PLAYS from EVERY GAME. How can some hits be fines and suspensions and other hits be unpunished. The most glaring one was the hit from Lewis on Ward last season. Yeah, maybe the refs blow it on the field, but no way that should have been let go from the league office.

[suitanim]

Might be time to find an old school board with fellow old farts like myself.

Nah, man...it's a jungle out there. For all it's faults, this is still the best place to be.

[Count Steeler]

Nah, man...it's a jungle out there. For all it's faults, this is still the best place to be.


Uhh.... Thank...you...? :huh: