Drawing the (offensive) line in AFC North

[Bluecoat96]

Seems like a pretty good, and *gasp* unbiased article from Hensley over at BSPN. I figured this could promote a little healthy debate, since this board is in full off-season mode.


The Baltimore Ravens (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/bal/baltimore-ravens) and Pittsburgh Steelers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers) share similar belief systems from building a team through the draft to maintaining cohesion in the front office to relying on a quarterback-attacking 3-4 defense. The NFL's version of the Hatfields & McCoys have been philosophical twins throughout most of the past decade.

Where the Ravens and Steelers differ this year, and differ drastically, is on the offensive line. The Ravens are banking on experience, and the Steelers are going with youth.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/50442/drawing-the-offensive-line-in-afc-north

[Vis]

I don't know what there is to debate. The Ravens are old, experienced, and brittle while the Steelers are young, inexperienced, and sure to make mistakes. Both sides are true. Which is better this year depends on the injury bug.

[Count Steeler]

The Baltimore Ravens and Pittsburgh Steelers share similar belief systems from building a team through the draft to maintaining cohesion in the front office to relying on a quarterback-attacking 3-4 defense. The NFL's version of the Hatfields & McCoys have been philosophical twins throughout most of the past decade.

More proper, the Baltimore Ravens have tried to copy the Pittsburgh Steelers, yet the Steelers remain the better franchise.

[ALLD]

The Steelers were also given their logo while the Ravens stole theirs.

[steelerdude15]

Good article. Our new linemen will make mistakes for sure, but so will theirs. I can only hope our rookies can learn fast.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Ravens have a solid group of talent in McKinney, Oher, Birk, Osemele, Yanda, Reid. I think they are stronger at the OT position, while the Steelers instantly become stronger up the middle with DeCastro, Pouncey, Colon. Gilbert is good, but not the caliber of either Oher or McKinney IMO.

I know the passing game has become more prevalent, but if you consider that Heath Miller is one of the top 5 blocking TE's in the NFL, the off tackle run game becomes a Steeler advantage I think.

[GBMelBlount]

Ravens have a solid group of talent in McKinney, Oher, Birk, Osemele, Yanda, Reid. I think they are stronger at the OT position, while the Steelers instantly become stronger up the middle with DeCastro, Pouncey, Colon. Gilbert is good, but not the caliber of either Oher or McKinney IMO.

I know the passing game has become more prevalent, but if you consider that Heath Miller is one of the top 5 blocking TE's in the NFL, the off tackle run game becomes a Steeler advantage I think.

You are probably right but I think a lot will depend on how Adams develops.

Admittedly I keep vacillating on whether it was best to pencil Adams in at left tackle now or give him time to develop, prove himself and earn the spot...

I also think this will be a big year developmentally for Gillbert.

Regardless, I am excited about the long term prospects for our O line.

[TMC]

Gilbert is good, but not the caliber of either Oher or McKinney IMO.

If we were talking about Oher 2 years ago or McKinney a couple seasons ago, I would completely agree. But, Oher is not the same player since moving to left tackle and going back to right tackle. It got in his head. Last season, as a right tackle, Oher allowed 5.75 sacks, had 4 false starts, and 5 holding penalties. In comparison, at the same position, as a rookie, Gilbert allowed 7 sacks (1.25 more than Oher), had 4 false starts, and no holding penalties. The difference is Gilbert allowed 1.25 more sacks and Oher had 5 more holding penalties. I think we can both agree that Ben holds the ball more than Flacco and takes more sacks because of it. Gilbert should also take a big step forward this season as most players do. They are no longer thinking and just playing. So, he should improve greatly. Oddly enough, last season was Oher's best statistical season as a pro. I would rather have Gilbert right now, and I loved Oher coming out of college.

McKinnie allowed 8.5 sacks last season, had 1 holding penalty, and 4 false starts. I would love to see Gilbert give LT a run to see how he compares to McKinnie. I have a feeling it would be pretty close. Gilbert has a habit of playing to the level of his competition.

IMO, Starks and Gilbert were every bit as good as McKinnie and Oher. The difference was, Grubbs, Yanda, and Birk were vastly better than Kemo/Legs, Pouncey, and Foster. The Steelers OL was getting blown out in the middle.

[The Duke]

McKinnie really faded late last year. He's also up there in age and I don't think they have anyone that can step in if he fades or gets hurt

when it comes to main OT backup both teams are in trouble, expect of course if we resign Starks

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Admittedly I keep vacillating on whether it was best to pencil Adams in at left tackle now or give him time to develop, prove himself and earn the spot...



Regardless, I am excited about the long term prospects for our O line.

The good thing about Adams is, that if he struggles in Latrobe, they can always juggle things or think about using Gilbert, Essex or (if healthy and signed) Starks. I like the talent we have there now.


If we were talking about Oher 2 years ago or McKinney a couple seasons ago, I would completely agree. But, Oher is not the same player since moving to left tackle and going back to right tackle. It got in his head. Last season, as a right tackle, Oher allowed 5.75 sacks, had 4 false starts, and 5 holding penalties. In comparison, at the same position, as a rookie, Gilbert allowed 7 sacks (1.25 more than Oher), had 4 false starts, and no holding penalties. The difference is Gilbert allowed 1.25 more sacks and Oher had 5 more holding penalties. I think we can both agree that Ben holds the ball more than Flacco and takes more sacks because of it. Gilbert should also take a big step forward this season as most players do. They are no longer thinking and just playing. So, he should improve greatly. Oddly enough, last season was Oher's best statistical season as a pro. I would rather have Gilbert right now, and I loved Oher coming out of college.

McKinnie allowed 8.5 sacks last season, had 1 holding penalty, and 4 false starts. I would love to see Gilbert give LT a run to see how he compares to McKinnie. I have a feeling it would be pretty close. Gilbert has a habit of playing to the level of his competition.

IMO, Starks and Gilbert were every bit as good as McKinnie and Oher. The difference was, Grubbs, Yanda, and Birk were vastly better than Kemo/Legs, Pouncey, and Foster. The Steelers OL was getting blown out in the middle.

So McKinney isnt as good as when he was drafted approx 10 years ago. he is still better than Gilbert. I love how most fans like to goto the stat page to evaluate O-lineman, but ignore how they actually play. Conversely, the same fans find it easy to look at RB's like Mendenhall and complain that he spins too much. The Steelers were not just getting blown out in the middle as you point out...Suggs has had great games against the Steelers OT's over the years.

Fact is that McKinney plays with solid balance, size, strength and has seen all the best pass rushers in the NFL for years. Oher is still a great talent and I think the O line coach needs to get him back to solid fundamentals, but he is still better than either of our OT's. Gilbert has 1 year under his belt and Adams has not seen an NFL pass rusher in pads yet. I like where we are going finally, but still think the Ravens have built the way we should have back with Grubbs, Gaither, Oher, Yanda, Pashos, etc. We have drafted utility guys to play O line, while the Ravens have drafted talent over the years.

[suitanim]

The good thing about Adams is, that if he struggles in Latrobe, they can always juggle things or think about using Gilbert, Essex or (if healthy and signed) Starks. I like the talent we have there now.



So McKinney isnt as good as when he was drafted approx 10 years ago. he is still better than Gilbert. I love how most fans like to goto the stat page to evaluate O-lineman, but ignore how they actually play. Conversely, the same fans find it easy to look at RB's like Mendenhall and complain that he spins too much. The Steelers were not just getting blown out in the middle as you point out...Suggs has had great games against the Steelers OT's over the years.

Fact is that McKinney plays with solid balance, size, strength and has seen all the best pass rushers in the NFL for years. Oher is still a great talent and I think the O line coach needs to get him back to solid fundamentals, but he is still better than either of our OT's. Gilbert has 1 year under his belt and Adams has not seen an NFL pass rusher in pads yet. I like where we are going finally, but still think the Ravens have built the way we should have back with Grubbs, Gaither, Oher, Yanda, Pashos, etc. We have drafted utility guys to play O line, while the Ravens have drafted talent over the years.

I can't believe you're trying to "school" TMC, Christ, the hubris...especially the whole bit about selectively quoting stats. No poster on this board has been more guilty of quoting stats when they support YOUR argument and dismissing them as meaningless when they don't than YOU. What hypocrisy.

The FACT is McKinney is done...he's declining, and his skills are diminishing. He's 33...NOBODY gets better at 33. That doesn't mean he can't play, it just means his best days are behind him. And nobody actually knows yet what we have in Gilbert because it's only his second year and he's not only been shuffled around, his supporting cast along the line is weak. Only a fool would take a 10 year vet with diminishing skills based on what he used to do over a 2nd year guy with great potential and almost unlimited upside.

Who are these utility guys? DeCastro? Pouncey? Gilbert? Adams? Even Colon (the other projected starter) was drafted in the 4th not so much because he's a "utility guy" rather he only went to Hofstra, and was a bit of a project. It could be argued that not a single projected starter on our OL is a "utility guy". This reduces almost your whole post to the garbage logic pile...

[GBMelBlount]

We have drafted utility guys to play O line, while the Ravens have drafted talent over the years.

I am assuming you are talking about the long term and not more recently. We have also had the misfortune of having some earlier round picks not work out.

So i guess looking at a time slice right now the Ravens have an aging but proven line but it looks have a lot of young talent and a lot more long term upside.

[steelerdude15]

I am assuming you are talking about the long term and not more recently. We have also had the misfortune of having some earlier round picks not work out.

So i guess looking at a time slice right now the Ravens have an aging but proven line but it looks have a lot of young talent and a lot more long term upside.
I wouldn't exactly say they have a proven line. Their line last year had issues and was pretty shaky at times. I feel that every time I watch the Ravens, I see a few false starts or holdings called, especially coming from Oher.

[steelerdude15]

IMO, I'm very excited to see how our o-line is going to pan out. I'm not worried about Marcus or Maurkice because they already have experience playing in the NFL. They're both maturing on the field and are honing their skills well. Marcus improved every game he played last year and Maurkice improved last year from his rookie year. These two can only go up in skills and ability.

[TMC]

So McKinney isnt as good as when he was drafted approx 10 years ago. he is still better than Gilbert. I love how most fans like to goto the stat page to evaluate O-lineman, but ignore how they actually play. Conversely, the same fans find it easy to look at RB's like Mendenhall and complain that he spins too much. The Steelers were not just getting blown out in the middle as you point out...Suggs has had great games against the Steelers OT's over the years.

Fact is that McKinney plays with solid balance, size, strength and has seen all the best pass rushers in the NFL for years. Oher is still a great talent and I think the O line coach needs to get him back to solid fundamentals, but he is still better than either of our OT's. Gilbert has 1 year under his belt and Adams has not seen an NFL pass rusher in pads yet. I like where we are going finally, but still think the Ravens have built the way we should have back with Grubbs, Gaither, Oher, Yanda, Pashos, etc. We have drafted utility guys to play O line, while the Ravens have drafted talent over the years.

McKinnie is not as good now as he was 3 seasons ago. He is struggling to control his weight. It causes him to struggle with pass protection because he is not the smaller LT he once was and tends to lumber more. In fact, the Ravens just held him out of OTA practices and put him inside to work on conditioning while Oher played LT for them. It JUST happened. So, no, he is not the player he was 10 years ago. Not even the player he was a few seasons ago.

As for how he actually plays, I would suggest you look at the Titans game of 2011, where, in the 4th quarter, the Ravens were using play action and rolling Flacco to the right away from pressure. I would also suggest the Chargers game where Antwaan Barnes put up 4 sacks, FOUR, although some were credited to Flacco for holding the ball too long. FOUR. While McKinnie played out of his mind in game one against the Steelers, Harrison put three sacks on them in game 2.

McKinnie has seen the best pass rushers for years. That is absolutely true. Rod Woodson covered the best wide receivers for years. Do not want the Steelers to sign him to cover WRs today. His time has passed. McKinnie's time is passing right in front of your eyes and his downfall will be weight/conditioning. The Ravens know it. They put a weight goal on him for this season.

As for Oher behing better, believe what you want. Last season was his BEST season as a pro and he still had more holding penalties/sacks allowed than Gilbert, who was a rookie. If you compared rookie seasons, Oher allowed one more sack and had more penalties. You can argue it all you like, but Gilbert has exceeded expectations on the field. He started as a rookie and performed well.

As for not getting blown out in the middle, the Ravens two OTs allowed 14.25 sacks in 2011. The Steelers OTs (Starks/Gilbert) allowed 11.5. The Ravens interior OL (Grubbs, Birk, Yanda) allowed 5.25 sacks in 2011. The Steelers interior (Kemo, Pouncey, Foster) allowed 10. Almost double on the inside and less on the outside. And, I wonder how many times Ben had instant pressure in his face, moved outside, and was sacked by an end? You can talk all you like, but the Steelers failed to control the interior. In fact, they struggled so much at it, they invested a 1st round pick inside and then moved their highest paid OL from tackle to guard. Either Gilbert really showed something at RT or the interior is a huge issue. One or the other (or both) had to have happened for them to move Colon to guard.

Also, funny you should talk about how the Ravens drafted talent after pimping McKinnie, a free agent signing. Birk, the starting center, is also a free agent signing. Two of the guys on their line are free agent signings. None of ours are.

You state the Ravens have drafted talent on the OL. The Ravens have spent exactly 2 first or second round picks on their interior offensive line since the franchise began. They are Chris Chester and Ben Grubbs, a 2nd and 1st rounder respectively. The Steelers have spent 3 FIRST round picks on the interior OL in the same time frame (Simmons, Pouncey, DeCastro). The Ravens have 4 OTs drafted in the 1st/2nd (Osemele, Oher, Terry, and Ogden) while the Steelers have 3 (Adams, Gilbert, Smith).

If the Ravens were hitting on the draft so much, why did they sign Birk and McKinnie? Gurode? And, you need to make sure you do not go back too far with the OL you use for the Ravens, you might get into the years of Smith, Faneca, Hartings, Starks, and others when the Steelers OL was dominant.

[suitanim]

Game.
Set.
Match.

[GBMelBlount]

McKinnie is not as good now as he was 3 seasons ago. He is struggling to control his weight. It causes him to struggle with pass protection because he is not the smaller LT he once was and tends to lumber more. In fact, the Ravens just held him out of OTA practices and put him inside to work on conditioning while Oher played LT for them. It JUST happened. So, no, he is not the player he was 10 years ago. Not even the player he was a few seasons ago.

As for how he actually plays, I would suggest you look at the Titans game of 2011, where, in the 4th quarter, the Ravens were using play action and rolling Flacco to the right away from pressure. I would also suggest the Chargers game where Antwaan Barnes put up 4 sacks, FOUR, although some were credited to Flacco for holding the ball too long. FOUR. While McKinnie played out of his mind in game one against the Steelers, Harrison put three sacks on them in game 2.

McKinnie has seen the best pass rushers for years. That is absolutely true. Rod Woodson covered the best wide receivers for years. Do not want the Steelers to sign him to cover WRs today. His time has passed. McKinnie's time is passing right in front of your eyes and his downfall will be weight/conditioning. The Ravens know it. They put a weight goal on him for this season.

As for Oher behing better, believe what you want. Last season was his BEST season as a pro and he still had more holding penalties/sacks allowed than Gilbert, who was a rookie. If you compared rookie seasons, Oher allowed one more sack and had more penalties. You can argue it all you like, but Gilbert has exceeded expectations on the field. He started as a rookie and performed well.

As for not getting blown out in the middle, the Ravens two OTs allowed 14.25 sacks in 2011. The Steelers OTs (Starks/Gilbert) allowed 11.5. The Ravens interior OL (Grubbs, Birk, Yanda) allowed 5.25 sacks in 2011. The Steelers interior (Kemo, Pouncey, Foster) allowed 10. Almost double on the inside and less on the outside. And, I wonder how many times Ben had instant pressure in his face, moved outside, and was sacked by an end? You can talk all you like, but the Steelers failed to control the interior. In fact, they struggled so much at it, they invested a 1st round pick inside and then moved their highest paid OL from tackle to guard. Either Gilbert really showed something at RT or the interior is a huge issue. One or the other (or both) had to have happened for them to move Colon to guard.

Also, funny you should talk about how the Ravens drafted talent after pimping McKinnie, a free agent signing. Birk, the starting center, is also a free agent signing. Two of the guys on their line are free agent signings. None of ours are.

You state the Ravens have drafted talent on the OL. The Ravens have spent exactly 2 first or second round picks on their interior offensive line since the franchise began. They are Chris Chester and Ben Grubbs, a 2nd and 1st rounder respectively. The Steelers have spent 3 FIRST round picks on the interior OL in the same time frame (Simmons, Pouncey, DeCastro). The Ravens have 4 OTs drafted in the 1st/2nd (Osemele, Oher, Terry, and Ogden) while the Steelers have 3 (Adams, Gilbert, Smith).

If the Ravens were hitting on the draft so much, why did they sign Birk and McKinnie? Gurode? And, you need to make sure you do not go back too far with the OL you use for the Ravens, you might get into the years of Smith, Faneca, Hartings, Starks, and others when the Steelers OL was dominant.

Nice points...and you are not the only one who feels they are better on paper than on the field.

RAVENS 2011 OFFENSIVE LINE RANKING = 19th (POST SEASON):


Starters- LT Michael Oher, LG Ben Grubbs, C Matt Birk, RG Chris Chester, RT Marshall Yanda

2010 Offensive Rankings- 14th Rushing (114.4 YPG), 20th Passing (208 YPG), 23rd Sacks Allowed (40)

On paper, the Baltimore Ravens have one of the best offensive lines in football. But their middling offensive statistics and 23rd ranking in sacks allowed tell a much different story for the Ravens.

Center Matt Birk anchors this unit with Ben Grubbs and movie star Michael Oher manning the left side. They open up a lot of doors for running back Ray Rice, but they need to improve on protecting Joe Flacco from being sacked 40 times again next season.

Oher has some impressive potential. If the other players continue to improve, Baltimore will fly up the offensive line rankings in NFL.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/752574-nfl-power-rankings-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-in-the-nfl-for-2011/page/15

[BigNastyDefense]

Here is how I see it:

I am very excited about the Steelers offensive line. I like the fact that the line is young, it can grow together, and their legs are fresh.

LT/Mike Adams - He had a first round grade and if it wasn't for failing the drug test at the Combine, he would have probably been a first round pick. The Steelers told him what he had to do to get back onto his draft board, he did it and then he fell to them in the second round. He's a very talented tackle who has played LT his entire college career and was one of the better ones in college football during his time at Ohio State. I don't think he's going to have growing pains that are that bad. A false start here or there, a holding call or two. But I think he's going to surprise a lot of people. And I like the fact that the Steelers are throwing him into the fire at LT. It's the position they drafted him to play, and that's where he should play. Gilbert surprised everyone at RT last season, Adams can do the same at LT.

RG/Willie Colon - He's our highest paid offensive lineman, and when we won Super Bowl 43, many feel he was our best offensive lineman. It's been said for years that he should be moved inside to guard, and it's finally happening. He hasn't played much in the past two seasons due to injury, and I am hoping that he can stay healthy because he's a good lineman and I think he can be dominant on the inside. Left guard has been a problem for us to fill since Faneca left. I think Colon can finally stick there and play well.

OC/Maurkice Pouncey - He's the second best center in the AFC, if not the entire National Football League. He had injury issues last season, and he had surgery and that should finally be cleared up. IMHO, our entire offensive line hinges on his ankle more than anything else. Pouncey is the captain of the line, he makes a lot of the line calls and adjustments (Ben Roethlisberger being the other player on the team that does this). He's the linchpin, he controls the very middle of the line, and when healthy he doesn't need help from a guard to control the NT/DT. This is important because it allows the guards to focus on their assignments.

RG/David DeCastro - I still can't believe that the best guard prospect since Steve Hutchinson and the best overall offensive lineman if not player in this past year's draft fell all the way to the #24 pick. I don't think there are any worries about him, not from me or the Steelers coaching staff. Not only is he big, strong, and fast for a big guy....the guy went to Stanford so he's also extremely smart. I don't expect many mental mistakes from him if we see any at all.

RT/Marcus Gilbert - He surprised a lot of us last season stepping in to play when injuries and just plain crappy play plagued our offensive line. I like him a lot at right tackle, and I think he solidifies this spot on our offensive line for years to come. I think he's going to show a lot of improvement this season. He'll have an entire offseason with his teammates and coaches, he will be getting the first team practice reps, and he's already seen the speed and strength of the NFL. He'll be able to just play this season instead of think and then react.

This might be a season with some growing pains for the Steelers offensive line with two rookie starters, but it shouldn't take them too long to gel and with a rather easy schedule to start the season could allow them the time to do this. But for the future, the Steelers IMHO could have one of the absolute best offensive lines in football.

As for the Ravens, their line has an combined age over 150 years old, as stated in the article. Guys like McKinnie, Bobbie Williams, and Matt Birk are all more likely to break down due to their age. McKinnie is having weight problems and if he can't get that under control the Ravens might not play him. Birk almost retired after last season, so his heart isn't entirely in it and if his play isn't as good as he expects he could surprisingly retire in the middle of training camp or a couple of weeks into the season. Marshall Yanda is not the guy they wanted replacing Grubbs at RG seeing how they tried to sign that guard from Miami. Oher has a lot of potential, but all this moving from right to left tackle seems to be in his head as he's become an inconsistent player.

On paper, this line should be dominant. But they were middle-of-the-road last season and I think at best will be back there this season if not worse. They were a very good run blocking line, but they were average in pass protection for the most part.