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polamalubeast
06-19-2012, 10:15 AM
The Pittsburgh Steelers as a team voted against ratifying the new CBA last summer and now it appears several players across the league wished they had done the same. Jim Corbett of the USA Today reported on Monday that Kansas City Chiefs right tackle Eric Winston expressed deep regret to his medium that the NFLPA didn...'t do more to curb the disciplinary and appeal powers of commissioner Roger Goodell in light of the appeal hearings of the players involved in Bountygate.

"Obviously we don't want Roger Goodell having absolute power. In a lot of this process, it seems like he does," said Winston...............

Read more @ http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/06/ryan-clark-tried-to-warn-everyone-about-the-absolute-power-of-roger-goodell/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SteelersDepotBlog+%28Steelers +Depot+Blog%29

GodfatherofSoul
06-19-2012, 11:03 AM
Authoritarianism in a microcosm. A vocal minority trying to tell everyone "hey watch out, that guy's accumulating too much power" while the masses giggle and ignore them for being conspiracy nuts. Too late now, you effectively voted him in for another 4 years!

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 11:19 AM
Ryan Clark was 100% correct, and was widely ridiculed at the time. Don't think anyone's laughing at him now...

Pristas
06-19-2012, 12:04 PM
Authoritarianism in a microcosm. A vocal minority trying to tell everyone "hey watch out, that guy's accumulating too much power" while the masses giggle and ignore them for being conspiracy nuts. Too late now, you effectively voted him in for another 4 years!

4? Try 9.

GodfatherofSoul
06-19-2012, 02:43 PM
Is my math wrong, I thought he was contracted to 2016?

BigNastyDefense
06-19-2012, 07:17 PM
And when we were all saying, along with the Steelers players themselves, that this giant douchenozzle had way too much power and he would only get worse...we were all made fun of and told that our players should just "follow the rules."

Now people are starting to see the light, and it's way too late. He has ultimate power. And the players have nobody to blame but themselves (other than the members of the 2011 Pittsburgh Steelers).

GodfatherofSoul, I think you're right about Goodell being contracted only until 2016. However, this CBA runs for nine more seasons. And the players have no say in who the commissioner is, it's decided by the owners. And as long as the revenue's keep piling up, they will keep extending his contract until he no longer wants the job (or revenue's start the fall, whichever comes first). So he's likely around for at least the next nine years.

ALLD
06-19-2012, 07:22 PM
Other teams were told that discipline will only affect 2% of all players and as long as they followed the rules they would not be affected. Well, that is not entirely true now is it?

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 07:37 PM
Ryan Clark was 100% correct, and was widely ridiculed at the time. Don't think anyone's laughing at him now...

I am. See?

:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

I refuse to listen to players who are clearly biased and don't have a clue about what they're talking about. The idea that Goodell is a lone ranger is the biggest joke I've ever heard of. The number of people who work closely with him, be it appeals, discipline, and safety/rules is mind-boggling.

But go ahead Clark. Keep thinking you're right, just like how you "think" that Goodell is the only person involved in the discipline/appeals process.

And God forbid that Goodell actually helps make a decision/has final say about something. He must think he is a commissioner or something...geez. That doesn't happen in any other sport...

steeldawg
06-19-2012, 08:01 PM
I am. See?

:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

I refuse to listen to players who are clearly biased and don't have a clue about what they're talking about. The idea that Goodell is a lone ranger is the biggest joke I've ever heard of. The number of people who work closely with him, be it appeals, discipline, and safety/rules is mind-boggling.

But go ahead Clark. Keep thinking you're right, just like how you "think" that Goodell is the only person involved in the discipline/appeals process.

And God forbid that Goodell actually helps make a decision/has final say about something. He must think he is a commissioner or something...geez. That doesn't happen in any other sport...

Great post!! This is exactly right, It is also true in the matter of the rule changes in the NFL. The rule changes are put together by a competition commitee, voted on by the owners and then implemented into the game. This idea that Goodell is making all these changes by himself to fullfill some personal agenda to change the game of football is ridiculous.

BigNastyDefense
06-19-2012, 08:10 PM
I am. See?

:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

I refuse to listen to players who are clearly biased and don't have a clue about what they're talking about. The idea that Goodell is a lone ranger is the biggest joke I've ever heard of. The number of people who work closely with him, be it appeals, discipline, and safety/rules is mind-boggling.

But go ahead Clark. Keep thinking you're right, just like how you "think" that Goodell is the only person involved in the discipline/appeals process.

And God forbid that Goodell actually helps make a decision/has final say about something. He must think he is a commissioner or something...geez. That doesn't happen in any other sport...

Here is the thing Chidi, I think most people realize that there are other people on the disciplinary board, I think three. They handle most of the fines, because every week there are multiple games and multiple fines. However, they are employees of the NFL and therefore employees of Roger Goodell. So if Goodell says that he wants certain players to receive harsher punishments or to be fined for plays that normally wouldn't be fined, they will do so. So he's in ultimate power, even if he's technically not choosing the fines, the guys that are doing so know what he wants and therefore they do what they feel Goodell would do.

And then, any appeals of those punishments go back to Goodell, the guy who gives the directions of how to punish the players.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 08:24 PM
Here is the thing Chidi, I think most people realize that there are other people on the disciplinary board, I think three. They handle most of the fines, because every week there are multiple games and multiple fines. However, they are employees of the NFL and therefore employees of Roger Goodell. So if Goodell says that he wants certain players to receive harsher punishments or to be fined for plays that normally wouldn't be fined, they will do so. So he's in ultimate power, even if he's technically not choosing the fines, the guys that are doing so know what he wants and therefore they do what they feel Goodell would do.

And then, any appeals of those punishments go back to Goodell, the guy who gives the directions of how to punish the players.

So what is he supposed to do? Not pick the people he wants to help him? Who is supposed to pick them? An outside source? And your statement implies that guys like Ray Anderson and Merton Hanks are just puppets being pulled by Goodell. That they don't work "with" him, rather, "for" him. Quite an accucsation without any evidence (sound familiar?).

And your last statement has you either mistaken or flat out lying. Either you're assuming or you're deceiving, I don't know. The appeals committee has nothing to do with Goodell. It is made up of Art Shell and Ted Cotrell and they were selected by a joint committee by the NFLPA and the league.

"The decision on persons appointed as the Commissioner’s designee for on-field player discipline appeals are determined by the Commissioner or one of two hearing officers who are jointly-appointed by the NFL and NFLPA. Those designated appeal officers are former NFL coach Art Shell and by former NFL coach Ted Cottrell. Shell and Cottrell are appointed and paid jointly by the NFL and NFLPA. "

http://nflhealthandsafety.com/commitment/regulations/

Pristas
06-19-2012, 08:54 PM
Is my math wrong, I thought he was contracted to 2016?

Sorry, I was referring to the timeline of the new CBA. Yes, I think you are correct, Goodell will be gone 2016, but a new dictator will arise to take his place, who could be worse than he is...

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 09:06 PM
Sorry, I was referring to the timeline of the new CBA. Yes, I think you are correct, Goodell will be gone 2016, but a new dictator will arise to take his place, who could be worse than he is...

Already fear-mongering about the next guy.

You guys really loved to get a jump on this stuff, don't you?

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 09:22 PM
I refuse to listen to players who are clearly biased and don't have a clue about what they're talking about. The idea that Goodell is a lone ranger is the biggest joke I've ever heard of. The number of people who work closely with him, be it appeals, discipline, and safety/rules is mind-boggling.

Yeah? Where's this "team" approach as far as Bountygate goes? Seems to me it was Goodell who handed down the punishments and it's Goodell who's hearing the appeals. Sorry, but I have a problem with that.

X-Terminator
06-19-2012, 09:30 PM
Great post!! This is exactly right, It is also true in the matter of the rule changes in the NFL. The rule changes are put together by a competition commitee, voted on by the owners and then implemented into the game. This idea that Goodell is making all these changes by himself to fullfill some personal agenda to change the game of football is ridiculous.

Goodell doesn't make the changes himself, but he damn sure sets the agenda/tone on those changes. If he doesn't, then like Chidi asked, what the hell is his role as Commissioner? Too many players get hit too hard...BAM! Next week we have fines handed out like candy for hits that in past years wouldn't have drawn a flag. We now have rules in place where you basically cannot hit a QB or WR and try to separate them from the ball without the iron hand of the league coming down on them. Turning the league into glorified flag football with 80 point and 1000+ yard games and an unprecedented FIVE QBs throwing for 5000 yards last season. If I wanted that, I'd watch the friggin Arena League. And for what? Player safety? Hell no...it's to keep the lawyers and feds off their asses. If you think that's not what all of this has been about, then you are being obtuse.

Leave the damn game alone.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 09:31 PM
Yeah? Where's this "team" approach as far as Bountygate goes? Seems to me it was Goodell who handed down the punishments and it's Goodell who's hearing the appeals. Sorry, but I have a problem with that.

Yes, Goodell handed down the final punishment. That's his job. He's supposed to do that.

But if you think he investigated it for three years on his own, then there's nothing I can do or say to change that delusion.

And no, he did not hear all the appeals. I think he heard one of the two. The other was by a well-known arbitrator, Shyam Das, who rejected the proposal to have the appeals heard by Art Shell and Ted Cotrell (why I don't know because that would be my preference. But it wasn't Goodell's decision).

"The arbitrator Shyam Das joined Stephen Burbank, who ruled earlier in the week, in siding with the league in the much-publicized case. Das dismissed the union’s grievance, which claimed that Goodell did not have the power to impose discipline on players for actions that took place before the current collective bargaining agreement was put in place last August. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/sports/football/grievance-on-saints-bounty-suspensions-is-denied-again.html?_r=1

How much misinformation must be spread on this site before you all take off your Goodell-colored glasses? I'm just shocked we haven't seen more Hitler references since that's par for the course around here. Though the Drew Brees "weapons of mass destruction" comment was a nice touch.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 09:32 PM
Great post!! This is exactly right, It is also true in the matter of the rule changes in the NFL. The rule changes are put together by a competition commitee, voted on by the owners and then implemented into the game. This idea that Goodell is making all these changes by himself to fullfill some personal agenda to change the game of football is ridiculous.

Exactly. 3/4 of league owners must pass rule changes in order for it to be implemented. It is not a one man show. Far from it.

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 09:33 PM
Whatever. Goodell is awesome and NFL football is better than ever. :sarcasm:

X-Terminator
06-19-2012, 09:35 PM
How much misinformation must be spread on this site before you all take off your Goodell-colored glasses? I'm just shocked we haven't seen more Hitler references since that's par for the course around here. Though the Drew Brees "weapons of mass destruction" comment was a nice touch.

It'll stop happening when he stops pissing around with the game. Simple as that. That more than anything else is why he has been and always will be public enemy #1, and not just with Steelers fans either.

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 09:38 PM
Yes, Goodell handed down the final punishment. That's his job. He's supposed to do that.

But if you think he investigated it for three years on his own, then there's nothing I can do or say to change that delusion.

And no, he did not hear all the appeals. I think he heard one of the two. The other was by a well-known arbitrator, Shyam Das, who rejected the proposal to have the appeals heard by Art Shell and Ted Cotrell (why I don't know because that would be my preference. But it wasn't Goodell's decision).

"The arbitrator Shyam Das joined Stephen Burbank, who ruled earlier in the week, in siding with the league in the much-publicized case. Das dismissed the union’s grievance, which claimed that Goodell did not have the power to impose discipline on players for actions that took place before the current collective bargaining agreement was put in place last August. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/09/sports/football/grievance-on-saints-bounty-suspensions-is-denied-again.html?_r=1

How much misinformation must be spread on this site before you all take off your Goodell-colored glasses? I'm just shocked we haven't seen more Hitler references since that's par for the course around here. Though the Drew Brees "weapons of mass destruction" comment was a nice touch.

This is also from the article you quoted. You don't see a problem with this?


The league is expected to hear the players’ basic appeals of their suspensions soon, with Goodell essentially deciding if he agrees with the discipline he has already handed down.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 09:53 PM
This is also from the article you quoted. You don't see a problem with this?

I said that Goodell has been in charge of some of the appeals. But with the arbitrator rejecting the NFLPA to go to Shell/Cotrell, there probably weren't any other options to go to.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 09:58 PM
Whatever. Goodell is awesome and NFL football is better than ever. :sarcasm:

No offense man, but total cop out. You were proven wrong about how the appeals work and now you're trying to leave the thread.

But hey, let's not get facts in the way of our witchunt.

http://static.bbc.co.uk/history/img/ic/640/images/resources/people/adolf_hitler.jpg


http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/rogergoodell2.jpg?w=250

Am I doing it right, guys?

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 10:08 PM
No offense man, but total cop out. You were proven wrong about how the appeals work and now you're trying to leave the thread.

How was I proven wrong? Again, this is from an article YOU quoted:



The league is expected to hear the players’ basic appeals of their suspensions soon, with Goodell essentially deciding if he agrees with the discipline he has already handed down.

Judge, jury and executioner, anybody? And that bullshit about the arbitrator "not giving him options" is just that, bullshit. The arbitrator's ruling was in response to who should be deciding what the penalties were, NOT who would hear the appeals.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 10:10 PM
How was I proven wrong? Again, this is from an article YOU quoted:



Judge, jury and executioner, anybody?

But he hasn't been the only one. He's basically only dong it because the players have run out of people to appeal to.

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 10:15 PM
But he hasn't been the only one. He's basically only dong it because the players have run out of people to appeal to.

Again, BS.


The union had also claimed that two league executives, Ted Cottrell and Art Shell — and not Goodell — should rule on discipline in the case because it involved on-field actions.

Seems to me that has nothing to do with appellate procedure, only sentencing.

However this ultimately IS the players' fault. They voted for it.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 10:20 PM
Again, BS.



Seems to me that has nothing to do with appellate procedure, only sentencing.

However this ultimately IS the players' fault. They voted for it.

And the idea of appealing to them was rejected by Das. It was in the article I linked and the one you read.

The union had also claimed that two league executives, Ted Cottrell and Art Shell — and not Goodell — should rule on discipline in the case because it involved on-field actions.

Das rejected the union’s claims, however, capping a successful week for the league in the matter after Burbank’s Monday ruling that also affirmed Goodell’s authority.

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 10:29 PM
And the idea of appealing to them was rejected by Das. It was in the article I linked and the one you read.

The union had also claimed that two league executives, Ted Cottrell and Art Shell — and not Goodell — should rule on discipline in the case because it involved on-field actions.

Das rejected the union’s claims, however, capping a successful week for the league in the matter after Burbank’s Monday ruling that also affirmed Goodell’s authority.

"Rule on discipline in the case" to me means deciding what the punishment should be, not who hears the appeals, based on this:


Das dismissed the union’s grievance, which claimed that Goodell did not have the power to impose discipline on players for actions that took place before the current collective bargaining agreement was put in place last August...

...The union had also claimed that two league executives, Ted Cottrell and Art Shell — and not Goodell — should rule on discipline in the case because it involved on-field actions.

But like I said, the players did this to themselves.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 10:31 PM
"Rule on discipline in the case" to me means deciding what the punishment should be, not who hears the appeals. But like I said, the players did this to themselves.

Shell and Cotrell only hear appeals. Their role has never been to lay down the initial penalty (which is moot anyway since Goodell already did it).

The request was to have them hear the appeals.

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 10:36 PM
Shell and Cotrell only hear appeals. Their role has never been to lay down the initial penalty (which is moot anyway since Goodell already did it).

The request was to have them hear the appeals.

Again, BS.


Examination of the ruling from arbitrator Shyam Das indicates that, during the May 16 hearing, the NFLPA focused only on the question of whether the new labor deal prevents discipline of players for anything happening before August 4, 2011. At footnote 1 to the ruling, Das explains that the NFLPA is not now seeking a ruling on the question of whether the appeals should be resolved not by Goodell but by Art Shell (pictured) or Ted Cottrell, who have been jointly appointed by the NFL and NFLPA to review fines and suspensions levied for on-field misconduct.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/08/arbitrator-doesnt-rule-on-whether-appeals-should-go-to-art-shell-or-ted-cotrell/

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 10:44 PM
Oops, my bad, I stand corrected - that was from May 16, but this was from June 8:



The players' union claimed Goodell is prohibited from punishing players for any conduct before the CBA was signed last August. The union also sought to have player appeals heard by Art Shell and Ted Cottrell, who are jointly appointed by the league and union to review discipline handed out for on-field conduct.
But arbitrator Shyam Das ruled Friday that Goodell is entitled to hand out the punishment and hear any appeals in the matter.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8027179/roger-goodell-punishment-new-orleans-saints-was-ok

But like I said, the players have only themselves to blame for this.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 10:50 PM
Oops, my bad, I stand corrected - that was from May 16, but this was from June 8:



http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8027179/roger-goodell-punishment-new-orleans-saints-was-ok

But like I said, the players have only themselves to blame for this.

Exactly. That was an independent arbitraitor who made that decision without any Goodell influence. Das said that Goodell could hear the appeals. Goodell didn't abuse power. He has been allowed to do it. Had Das ruled that Shell and Cotrell can hear the appeals, you bet the NFLPA would be going to them. Because those guys have overturned/reduced Goodell's fines before.

Hardly sounds like a guy with "absolute power".

fansince'76
06-19-2012, 11:01 PM
Exactly. That was an independent arbitraitor who made that decision without any Goodell influence. Das said that Goodell could hear the appeals. Goodell didn't abuse power. He has been allowed to do it. Had Das ruled that Shell and Cotrell can hear the appeals, you bet the NFLPA would be going to them. Because those guys have overturned/reduced Goodell's fines before.

Hardly sounds like a guy with "absolute power".

I still think something's rotten in Denmark about the whole thing, but like I said more than once, the players did this to themselves.

Chidi29
06-19-2012, 11:25 PM
I still think something's rotten in Denmark about the whole thing, but like I said more than once, the players did this to themselves.

Yeah, it is kinda confusing with all the appeals. But there have been at least two where Goodell has not been in charge.

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 12:19 AM
So I spent about an hour investigating this "absolute power" claims. Without breaking a sweat, here is a list of people who work with Roger Goodell. I'm sure there are a lot more but these were the ones who could be found without much digging. I tried to limit it to just name and a brief description so with many people, their titles are very extensive and reflect multiple backgrounds.

The Head, Neck and Spine Committee
Chairmen
1.Dr. Hunt Batjer, Chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery at the Northwestern Memorial Hospital and Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine
2.Dr. Richard G. Ellenbogen, Chairman of the Department of Neurological Surgery at the University of Washington School of Medicine.

Subcommittee for the Development and Management of Prospective Database for NFL Players
3.Robert Harbaugh, MD, Professor and Chair of Neurosurgery at Penn State University.


Members:

4.Kathleen Welsh-Bohmer, Ph.D.
Duke University

5.Bruce Miller, M.D.
Associate Professor, Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, University of Michigan

6.Bradley F. Boeve, M.D.
Mayo Clinic

7.Merril Hoge
Former professional football player (Pittsburgh Steelers & Chicago Bears)

8.Geoff Ling, M.D., Ph.D.
Program Manager, Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)

9.Richard Gliklich, M.D.
President of Outcome, Inc.

10.J. Christopher Zacko, M.D., M.S.
Penn State Hershey

11.Thom Mayer, M.D.
Medical Director at NFL Players Association


Subcommittee on Safety Equipment and Playing Rules
12.Professor Kevin Guskiewicz, Ph.D., ACT, Chairman, Department of Exercise and Sport Science, University of North Carolina.

13.T. Pepper Burruss
Green Bay Packers

14.Raul Radovitzky, Ph.D.
Associate Director, MIT Institute for Soldier Nanotechnologies

Geoff Ling, M.D., Ph.D.
Program Manager, Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)

15.Ron Courson, ATC, PT, NREMT-I, CSCS
University of Georgia Athletic Association

16.Frank A. Pintar, Ph.D.
Medical College of Wisconsin

17.Erik E Swartz, Ph.D., ATC, FNATA
University of New Hampshire

18.Randal P. Ching, Ph.D.
University of Washington

19.Joseph F. Waeckerle, M.D.
University of Missouri, Kansas City School of Medicine

20.Joe Skiba
Head Equipment Director, New York Giants

21.Robert Watkins, III, M.D.
Founding member of the North American Spine Society

Thom Mayer, M.D.
Medical Director at NFL Players Association



Subcommittee on Former Players and Long-Term Effects of Brain and Spine Injury
22.Dr. Mitchel S. Berger, Professor and Chair of Neurological Surgery at University of California San Francisco.

Chair:
23.Mitch Berger, M.D.
Director, Neurosurgical Research Centers, Brain Tumor Research Center

Members:
24.Bruce L. Miller, M.D.
University of California, San Francisco

25.Bradley F. Boeve, M.D.
Mayo Clinic

Kathleen Welsh-Bohmer, Ph.D.
Duke University

Merril Hoge
Former professional football player (Pittsburgh Steelers & Chicago Bears)

26.Joel Kramer, Psy.D.
University of California, San Francisco

Thom Mayer, M.D.
Medical Director at NFL Players Association

27.Ernie Bates, M.D.
Neurosurgeon


Subcommittee on Brain and Spine Injury Research
Contains scientist members of the Department of Defense, Centers for Disease Control and Massachusetts Institute of technology.
28.Russell Lonser, M.D., Head of the Surgical Neurology Branch at the National Institutes of Health.

Chair:
29.Russ Lonser, M.D.
NINDS Neurological Surgery Residency Training Program.

Members:
Raul Radovitzky
Associate Director, MIT Institute for Soldier Nanotechnologies

Geoff Ling, M.D., Ph.D.
Program Manager, Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)

Kevin Guskiewicz, Ph.D.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

30.John A. Butman, M.D., Ph.D.
NIH Clinical Center

Thom Mayer, M.D.
Medical Director at NFL Players Association



Subcommittee on Advocacy and Education
31.Stanley A. Herring, M.D., Clinical Professor, Departments of Rehabilitation Medicine, Orthopaedics and Sports Medicine, and Neurological Surgery at The University of Washington, Director of Spine, Sports and Orthopaedic Health UW Medicine, Co-Medical Director, Seattle Sports Concussion Program and Team Physician Seattle Seahawks and Seattle Mariners.

Members:
Merril Hoge
Former professional football player (Pittsburgh Steelers & Chicago Bears)

32.Margot Putukian, M.D.
Princeton University

Kevin Guskiewicz, Ph.D.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Thom Mayer, M.D.
Medical Director at NFL Players Association


Subcommittee on Return-to-Play Issues
Margot Putukian, MD, Head Team Physician for Princeton University and physician representative of the NCAA and American College of Sports Medicine, on this subject.

Chair:
Margot Putukian, M.D.
Princeton University

Members:
Robert Watkins, III, M.D.
Founding member of the North American Spine Society

T. Pepper Burruss
Green Bay Packers

33.Anthony Yates, M.D., FACP
Medical Director IMITS CENTER, Innovative Medical and Information Technologies Center
Team Physician, Pittsburgh Steelers

Joseph F. Waeckerle, M.D.
University of Missouri, Kansas City School of Medicine

Stanley Herring, M.D.
University of Washington School of Medicine

34.Daniel Resnick, M.D.
University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health.

35.Andrew Hecht, M.D.
Mount Sinai Medical Center and School of Medicine

Kevin Guskiewicz, Ph.D.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

36.Ronald Barnes
New York Football Giants

37.Hank Feuer, M.D.
Team Neurosurgeon, Indianapolis Colts

Thom Mayer, M.D.
Medical Director at NFL Players Association


Consultants to All Subcommittees
38.Robert C. Cantu, M.A., M.D., FACS, FAANS, FACSM
Member/Co-Chair Equipment and Rules Committee NFLPA Mackey/White TBI Committee

39.Joseph Maroon, M.D., FACS
Department of Neurological Surgery

Consultants to Safety Equipment and Playing Rules Subcommittee
40.Dave Meaney, Ph.D.
Penn Center for Brain Injury and Repair

41.Barry Myers, M.D., Ph.D., MBA
Professor of Biomedical Engineering with appointments in Orthopedic Surgery, Anatomy and Business

42.Gunter Siegmund, Ph.D., P.Eng
School of Kinesiology


The NFL Injury and Safety Committee
Chair:
43.Elliott Hershman, M.D., Director of Orthopaedics Lenox Hill Hospital and Team Orthopedist, New York Jets,
The Competition Committee utilizes [their] information to inform the development of new rules and regulations that promote player safety. The Committee also provides valuable input on research proposals and grant allotment. The Committee meets quarterly, reporting to and making recommendations directly to Commissioner Goodell.

The NFL Foot and Ankle Subcommittee
Chairs:
44.Michael Coughlin, M.D., Clinical Professor of Orthopaedics Oregon Health Science University, former president, International Federation of Foot and Ankle Surgeons

45.Robert Anderson, M.D., Team Physician Carolina Panthers, Director OrthoCarolina Foot and Ankle Institute, past president, American Foot and Ankle Society,

The Subcommittee utilizes this data to inform its work with shoe and equipment manufacturers, technology providers, and turf and playing surface experts as well as equipment managers to encourage the development and effective use of protective equipment. The Subcommittee meets quarterly and reports its findings and makes recommendations to the Injury and Safety Committee.

The National Football League Cardiovascular Health Subcommittee
Chairs:
46.Dr. Robert Vogel, Professor of Medicine and the Director of Clinical Vascular Biology at the University of Maryland

47.Dr. Andrew Tucker, Head Team Physician for the Baltimore Ravens and Chief of Sports Medicine at Union Memorial Hospital,
Subcommittee

48.Nationally-recognized experts in cardiology and cardiovascular medicine, endocrinology, obesity, sleep medicine, hypertension and cardiovascular disease epidemiology.
The intent of the Subcommittee is to investigate the prevalence and risk factors for the development of premature cardiovascular disease including diabetes, hypertension, sleep apnea and obesity in current and former NFL players.

The Medical Grants Subcommittee

49.The NFL Charities Board considers medical grant proposals that place emphasis on scientific merit, clinical relevance and significance to the NFL. Previous reviewers have included representatives from the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, and Ohio State University College of Medicine, among others. Hundreds of research projects have been funded and research papers published.
In 2010, the NFL Charities Medical Grant evaluation committee placed greater emphasis on proposed projects concerning concussion and traumatic brain injury, cardiovascular research, and methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), an infection caused by a strain of staph bacteria that has become resistant to the antibiotics commonly used to treat ordinary staph infections.
http://nflhealthandsafety.com/commitment/committees/

50.Ray Anderson. NFL Vice President
51.Merton Hanks. Senior Manager and Director of Operations for the NFL

NFL Player Safety Advisory Panel
Chairs:
52.Ronnie Lott. Former 49ers defensive back. Hall of Fame Class of 2000.
53.John Madden. Former Oakland Raiders head coach. 1976 Super Bowl winner.

Members:
54.Antonio Freeman. Wide Reciever
55.Patrick Kerney.Defensive End
56.Willie Lanier.Linebacker
57.Anthony Munoz. Offensive Tackle
58.Marty Schottenheimer .Former Coach
59.Ernie Accorsi.Current General Manager (Giants)
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5987547

60.Troy Vincent – NFL VP of Player Engagement
http://nflcommunications.com/2012/03/06/nfl-vp-of-player-engagement-troy-vincent-receives-2012-jefferson-award-for-outstanding-service-by-an-athlete/

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 12:36 AM
So there you go, a minimum of SIXTY people that are working with Goodell. For the most part, doctors who are working on improving the safety of the game. You have surgeons, founders of foundations, and nearly all of them work for a prominent university. You have former players, people who work with the military, people with all sorts of backgrounds.

And, you have two Pittsburgh guys on there. #33 Yates (one of the most accomplished people on my list if you look at his bio) and #39 Maroon.

Yup, Goodell is in charge of everything. He's certainly a Lone Ranger.

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 12:40 AM
I still think something's rotten in Denmark about the whole thing, but like I said more than once, the players did this to themselves.

Here's the entire grievance with Das' rejection.

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/nfl-art-3-release-6-8-12.pdf

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 12:41 AM
I'm about ready to go to bed but if anyone is interested in reading it, here is the entire new CBA.

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 12:46 AM
I'm about ready to go to bed but if anyone is interested in reading it, here is the entire new CBA.

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Quick heads up, it's doing a pretty good job of freezing my computer. Just a warning in case.

X-Terminator
06-25-2012, 02:22 AM
Thanks for posting all of that, Chidi, but my personal opinion of Goodell will not be changed until, again, he stops meddling with the game and lets the players play, as well as using some damn consistency when it comes to handing out discipline. IMO he wants a soft game with AFL-like scores, and I'm sorry, I am not interested in watching that shit. As far as the players are concerned, once again, if they were really serious about limiting Goodell's power over handing out discipline, they should have fought harder for it. As much as I can't stand Gary Bettman and his "new NHL", at least he has a clear and structured process for supplemental discipline, and only in extreme circumstances does he rule on any disciplinary action. It can be argued that Brendan Shanahan has more power than Bettman does in this case. If the NFL (and Goodell) wants to silence the critics from the fans and players alike, they can try emphasizing the roles of Hanks, Cottrell and Anderson in the disciplinary process, and take the power over the Personal Conduct Policy at least partially out of his hands. He should not be the judge, jury and jailer in those situations. I think that, more than anything else, is what has the players upset.

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 08:12 AM
Then I'm not sure what I can post to try and change your mind, even a little bit. I think you're stuck in a box and no matter what, will never try and see my side.

The league has always been about opening up offenses. As I pointed out before, the 5 yard chuck rule was specifically created to make the game more exciting. Starts around the 1:50 makr here.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d81d2baa4/Top-Ten-Steelers-of-All-Time-Mel-Blount

That's how the league works. Offenses always get the advantage.

Shanahan works in the same way Hanks and Anderson does. And in cases of unsportsmanlike conduct and unnecessary roughness, the ruling comes only from Hanks and Anderson. Goodell isn't really involved at all.

And unlike the NFL, the appeals in the NHL go straight to Bettman. For fines for on the field conduct, they go to Art Shell and Ted Cotrell, paid jointly by the NFL and NFLPA (as stated in the CBA). And for Goodell to be able to rule on the Saints' appeal, as I posted, he had to be given permission by an independent arbitrator. To me, that is not judge, jury, executioner, in the least.

LLT
06-25-2012, 08:52 AM
So there you go, a minimum of SIXTY people that are working with Goodell. For the most part, doctors who are working on improving the safety of the game. You have surgeons, founders of foundations, and nearly all of them work for a prominent university. You have former players, people who work with the military, people with all sorts of backgrounds.

And, you have two Pittsburgh guys on there. #33 Yates (one of the most accomplished people on my list if you look at his bio) and #39 Maroon.

Yup, Goodell is in charge of everything. He's certainly a Lone Ranger.

That is the lamest argument ever.

Please dont make me form of list of those who worked under Hitler....then make some sarcastic comment about how "Hitler MUST not have been an evil dictator....why....look at all the people who worked under him!!!!"

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 09:07 AM
That is the lamest argument ever.

Please dont make me form of list of those who worked under Hitler....then make some sarcastic comment about how "Hitler MUST not have been an evil dictator....why....look at all the people who worked under him!!!!"

So you're telling me that every single CEO who doesn't work under anyone also has the same absolute power? Every small business owner is an evil dicator.

Either they don't have absolute power or Goodell has the same power that every other one of those people have. Which is it?

And if you can't see the brilliance of the people working on his staff and how they're obviously not just henchmen, that's your issue.

LLT
06-25-2012, 09:14 AM
So you're telling me that every single CEO who doesn't work under anyone also has the same absolute power? Every small business owner is an evil dicator.

Either they don't have absolute power or Goodell has the same power that every other one of those people have. Which is it?

And if you can't see the brilliance of the people working on his staff and how they're obviously not just henchmen, that's your issue.

No....the complete opposite.

I'm actually telling you that you CANT make such broad generalizations. Its as silly to say that Goodell doesnt have absolute power because people work for him as it is to go to the opposite extreme. Just forcing your hand into being intellectually honest in your arguments.

By the way...many of the evil people who worked under Hitler were "Brilliant".....that doesnt mean they were not misguided or even outright evil.

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 09:17 AM
No....the complete opposite.

I'm actually telling you that you CANT make such broad generalizations. Its as silly to say that Goodell doesnt have absolute power because people work for him as it is to go to the opposite extreme. Just forcing your hand into being intellectually honest in your arguments.

By the way...many of the evil people who worked under Hitler were "Brilliant".....that doesnt mean they were not misguided or even outright evil.

The list of people to illustrate my point is just one of many arguments I've presented. Obviously, Goodell is not a doctor. So it makes complete sense to surround yourself with as many medical minds as possible. You don't think they're influencing him? Do you think he ignores them? That he just has them to make himself look good?

The decisions Goodell makes are direct results of the information given to him.

X-Terminator
06-25-2012, 09:20 AM
Then I'm not sure what I can post to try and change your mind, even a little bit. I think you're stuck in a box and no matter what, will never try and see my side.

The league has always been about opening up offenses. As I pointed out before, the 5 yard chuck rule was specifically created to make the game more exciting. Starts around the 1:50 makr here.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d81d2baa4/Top-Ten-Steelers-of-All-Time-Mel-Blount

That's how the league works. Offenses always get the advantage.

Shanahan works in the same way Hanks and Anderson does. And in cases of unsportsmanlike conduct and unnecessary roughness, the ruling comes only from Hanks and Anderson. Goodell isn't really involved at all.

And unlike the NFL, the appeals in the NHL go straight to Bettman. For fines for on the field conduct, they go to Art Shell and Ted Cotrell, paid jointly by the NFL and NFLPA (as stated in the CBA). And for Goodell to be able to rule on the Saints' appeal, as I posted, he had to be given permission by an independent arbitrator. To me, that is not judge, jury, executioner, in the least.

There's just one small difference between adopting the Mel Blount Rule and today. At least back then, defenses were still allowed to play defense. They were still allowed to hit receivers if they came over the middle. Pass interference wasn't so loosely called. Hitting quarterbacks wasn't considered nearly completely off-limits. Nowadays, a receiver can have a sandwich and a drink after making the catch before he has to worry about being hit, same for the quarterback (thanks Marsha Brady for that one). And if you dare hit someone too hard, here come the fines. This isn't football, it's lawyerball, and it's not exciting in the least. If you want that, hey...have at it. I, on the other hand, will limit myself to Steelers games only and the hell with the rest of the league.

BTW, I did know that appeals in the NHL go directly to Bettman. He ruled on Raffi Torres' appeal, as a matter of fact. But there is still a structure in place, and since the NFL also has a distinct structure, it would behoove them to make that a point of emphasis so that there isn't any confusion. You shouldn't have to dig for information about it- it should be common knowledge.

LLT
06-25-2012, 09:38 AM
The list of people to illustrate my point is just one of many arguments I've presented. Obviously, Goodell is not a doctor. So it makes complete sense to surround yourself with as many medical minds as possible. You don't think they're influencing him? Do you think he ignores them? That he just has them to make himself look good?

The decisions Goodell makes are direct results of the information given to him.

Really? His decisions are motivated by their "brilliant" information? I thought you said.....


Sure, I've said all along this isn't really about a geniune care for player safety. They don't want to see their players get hurt, sure, but it's a cover their own butt motivation.

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 09:39 AM
There's just one small difference between adopting the Mel Blount Rule and today. At least back then, defenses were still allowed to play defense. They were still allowed to hit receivers if they came over the middle. Pass interference wasn't so loosely called. Hitting quarterbacks wasn't considered nearly completely off-limits. Nowadays, a receiver can have a sandwich and a drink after making the catch before he has to worry about being hit, same for the quarterback (thanks Marsha Brady for that one). And if you dare hit someone too hard, here come the fines. This isn't football, it's lawyerball, and it's not exciting in the least. If you want that, hey...have at it. I, on the other hand, will limit myself to Steelers games only and the hell with the rest of the league.

BTW, I did know that appeals in the NHL go directly to Bettman. He ruled on Raffi Torres' appeal, as a matter of fact. But there is still a structure in place, and since the NFL also has a distinct structure, it would behoove them to make that a point of emphasis so that there isn't any confusion. You shouldn't have to dig for information about it- it should be common knowledge.

And the restrictions have slowly gotten tighter and tigher. My point is that it didn't all magically start with Roger Goodell. The game has always favored the offense basically since that time. Here's a link to the evolution of the rules. You can see more and more restrictions against defenses as time goes on.

http://nflhealthandsafety.com/commitment/evolution/

It's not that hard to find information. When a player is fined, he gets all that information sent directly to him. The fine letter has four components.

1. Decision on the discipline
2. Specific rule violation
3. Instructions on how to appeal
4. Instructions on how to watch video on the play in question

No player should be confused after that.

As for fans, and players, you can look it up easily on the NFL's Health and Safety site. http://nflhealthandsafety.com/commitment/regulations/

Unfortunately, it's easier for people to make Hitler references than to do a little bit of research.

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 09:41 AM
Really? His decisions are motivated by their "brilliant" information? I thought you said.....

Player safety has always been about the league covering themselves. From making the game safer so it wouldn't be banned in the early 1900s to today. So yeah, the general idea of player safety is a liability issue (just like any other business).

Deciding on what specific player safety measures to take comes from the doctors working with Goodell.

LLT
06-25-2012, 09:43 AM
Unfortunately, it's easier for people to make Hitler references than to do a little bit of research.

And its easier to generalize than to make coherent arguements. Sorry if that hit home.

LLT
06-25-2012, 09:47 AM
Player safety has always been about the league covering themselves. From making the game safer so it wouldn't be banned in the early 1900s to today. So yeah, the general idea of player safety is a liability issue (just like any other business).

Deciding on what specific player safety measures to take comes from the doctors working with Goodell.

You're talking in circles. You have said "this isn't really about a geniune care for player safety"...but keep falling back on Goodell having doctors on His staff when others point out the same reality.

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 09:53 AM
You're talking in circles. You have said "this isn't really about a geniune care for player safety"...but keep falling back on Goodell having doctors on His staff when others point out the same reality.

This isn't hard to understand.

Why does a business have safety policies? So they don't get sued. That's why safety didn't exist in businesses when there were no laws to regulate it (i.e. Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire).

How does a business decide what safety policies to enact? In the NFL's case, based on the findings of the doctors.

It's two-fold.

LLT
06-25-2012, 10:52 AM
This isn't hard to understand.

Why does a business have safety policies? So they don't get sued. That's why safety didn't exist in businesses when there were no laws to regulate it (i.e. Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire).

How does a business decide what safety policies to enact? In the NFL's case, based on the findings of the doctors.

It's two-fold.

What is hard to figure out is that you agree with us that Goodells motivations are, in fact, based on the bottom dollar....but argue that point when we say the same.

Also you tend skip over the his obvious arbitrary decisions on ...fines....suspensions...etc.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-25-2012, 11:05 AM
Guys, lets just keep things civil and not let it get personal. :hand: Otherwise a little vacation might be in order..............wait a minute, I am not a moderator. :doh:

As you were, this is entertaining debate. :argue:

TMC
06-25-2012, 11:21 AM
Goodell does not wield absolute power. A perfect example would be the cap deductions for Dallas and Washington for their actions. When they challenged the subject, the other owners stepped in (voted to uphold the penalties IIRC). It was also held up by an arbitrator.

The thing is, if Goodell does something egregious enough to piss off the owners, you can bet they will put him out on his ass in a minute. They control him, not the other way around. He gets his directive from them and as long as he is making them money and protecting their business, he is not going anywhere.

The players could have fought to change this during the CBA, but they would have had to give something up and they just did not want to give up enough to change his duties. They bent over and slathered up for some cash. They have to live with it.

Animal Mother
06-25-2012, 11:21 AM
...



Subcommittee on Former Players and Long-Term Effects of Brain and Spine Injury
22.Dr. Mitchel S. Berger, Professor and Chair of Neurological Surgery at University of California San Francisco.

Chair:
23.Mitch Berger, M.D.
Director, Neurosurgical Research Centers, Brain Tumor Research Center
...

What the heck does Mitch Berger know besides how to punt the ball 12 yards?

Chidi29
06-25-2012, 11:24 AM
What is hard to figure out is that you agree with us that Goodells motivations are, in fact, based on the bottom dollar....but argue that point when we say the same.

Also you tend skip over the his obvious arbitrary decisions on ...fines....suspensions...etc.

Because I'm not blinded by my bias.

I'm capable of being critical of Goodell. I realize this is a business and that is the driving factor here. I didn't think that had to be said. All businesses work that way. But the specifics can be different. In the case of the NFL, the specifics of player safety come from the geniune opinions of the doctors/researchers. I haven't argue otherwise. That's my stance.

And I've told you multiple times in the past that I don't always agree with their decisions and their is some inconsitency. I can't expect perfection, but I'm always looking for improvement from the league. I don't defend every action they make. I just called one of their actions classless the other day on this board.

I'm capable of being impartial. Sadly, there are very few on this board who are the same. It's either anti-Goodell or you're an idiot, incapable of making a "coherent" argument.

El-Gonzo Jackson
06-25-2012, 11:49 AM
What the heck does Mitch Berger know besides how to punt the ball 12 yards?

:rofl: Yeah.........and why does he get no hype and Myron Rolle gets all the press about being a neurosurgeon without ever have made a 53 man roster. :noidea:

Player safety, 18 game schedule, suspending Scott Fujita for 3 games without having any real evidence, just because Godell had an axe to grind with Fujita for his past NFLPA dealings. Godell is going Mussolini on the NFL.