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cold-hard-steel
04-09-2012, 08:43 AM
Do we have intact a line that can produce or not? Looking for some feed-back.

Pristas
04-09-2012, 08:55 AM
With some young blood, and a good camp, I'd say we could have one of the best. Pouncey is already a star. Gilbert is really coming along nicely. If we draft a solid guard, and the rest of the guys gel, and we don't lose anyone to injuries... (that's a lot of if's) we could give Ben an extra second in the pocket before he gets sacked for holding onto the ball too long.

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-09-2012, 09:03 AM
We have always had a decent amount of talent on the O line, but no premium draft picks means the talent hasnt been stellar. If healthy I think that Pouncey, Colon, Gilbert and Foster are reasonable to start with. Adding another few linemen in the draft or Free Agency will fill things out.

That being said, an O lineman loves to be the aggressor and run block, more than having to pass protect. Guys like Kemo, Foster, Colon were/are not as good at pass blocking than running the ball. I will be interested to see if we use more power man blocking schemes in the offense, to be more physical on the O line and play to their strengths, while also throwing the football enough to keep teams from crowding the O line.

I think Heath Miller and Wesley Saunders are going to see bigger roles in receiving under the offense. Just a hunch.

zulater
04-09-2012, 09:10 AM
We're a stud left guard away from having a very good offensive line. By recent Steeler standards anyway. :heh:

suitanim
04-09-2012, 09:43 AM
I disagree. In the past, the Steelers would invest a little across the front 5 and skimp off a little at skill positions, particularly QB. Now we seem to be taking the opposite approach. And I understand that.

You can't invest heavily in your defense AND your offense AND your special teams. There has to be an area of compromise. it seems the Steelers are content to invest heavily throughout their defense, and at the skill positions on offense, and save along the OL by trying to cobble together a serviceable group. Obviously they drafted Pouncey in the first a couple years ago, so it's not a totally K-Mart line, but he's more the exception then the rule. My guess is that, at best, we will have an average OL.

ShutDown24
04-09-2012, 10:02 AM
The line is average at this point. Two very good young players, one good but oft-injured player and two spots that could use improvement. The team needs to continue doing what it has been for the last few seasons which is slowly adding great players to the line. If they select an offensive linemen in the first three rounds of this months draft I'm happy. I imagine they will take one with the first or second selection, but it depends on how things fall. There seems to be a misconception that the team avoids and ignores the line; that's not true at all. They have invested a lot in the squad but are just now starting to recover from some bad personnel decisions.

cold-hard-steel
04-09-2012, 10:18 AM
The o-line seems to be the first thing people want to pick on. Noone wants to bring up blocking for a qb that is somewhere else at the time.I believe we really want to run the ball 75% of the time.That would suit me fine.It opens up a whole other can of worms if you can do that.

ShutDown24
04-09-2012, 10:25 AM
The o-line seems to be the first thing people want to pick on. Noone wants to bring up blocking for a qb that is somewhere else at the time.I believe we really want to run the ball 75% of the time.That would suit me fine.It opens up a whole other can of worms if you can do that.

I think 75% of the time might be a little too much. It's good to have a great running game, but ignoring the fact that you have an elite quarterback and two above average receivers would be irresponsible. I think what every team should really aim for is a 50/50 split between the passing and rushing games.

suitanim
04-09-2012, 10:32 AM
We aren't the Bronco's (with Tebow). We ran 55/45 last year and that's right about where we should be. With our QB, TE and WR's it would be a huge mistake to run the ball 75% of the time. talk about predictable!

oneforthetoe
04-09-2012, 10:33 AM
We're a stud left guard away from having a very good offensive line. By recent Steeler standards anyway. :heh:

By some recent standards drafting one of them may improve our offensive line:

http://www.someworthwhilequotes.com/images/graphics/1920s.gif ;)

suitanim
04-09-2012, 10:55 AM
Want proof the Steelers aren't that interested in the OL? If we can all agree that the Steelers build via the draft and not FA (and I HOPE we can all agree on at least that, since it's pretty much accepted as fact), let's look at the last 5 drafts:
2011: One OL drafted, Gilbert in rd 2. He was 1 of 6 picks
2010: Pouncey in first, Scott in 5th. 2 out of 10 picks.
2009: Urbik in round 2. 1 of 9 picks.
2008: Hills in the 4th. 1 of 7 picks.
2007: No one. Zero out of 8 picks.

Average round selected: 3.5
Percentage of OL selected in all draft picks: 5 out of 40 picks. 12.5%

Since most teams carry 9-10 OL, roughly 20% of the roster is made up of OL. We only draft (and this is predicated upon ALL our draft picks making the team) at 12.5%, so even if they all make it we have a roughly 8% gap.

steelreserve
04-09-2012, 12:35 PM
I disagree. In the past, the Steelers would invest a little across the front 5 and skimp off a little at skill positions, particularly QB. Now we seem to be taking the opposite approach. And I understand that.

You can't invest heavily in your defense AND your offense AND your special teams. There has to be an area of compromise. it seems the Steelers are content to invest heavily throughout their defense, and at the skill positions on offense, and save along the OL by trying to cobble together a serviceable group. Obviously they drafted Pouncey in the first a couple years ago, so it's not a totally K-Mart line, but he's more the exception then the rule. My guess is that, at best, we will have an average OL.

Wow, someone who actually understands that we don't have unlimited resources. Most people seem to think we could spend $12M a year at each position to bring in five All-Pro linemen, pay Ben and Troy what they're worth, and still have no problem holding on to guys like Taylor, Harrison, Woodley, Kiesel, Miller or Wallace. Or that we could draft all OL in rounds 1 through 4 every year and still not have to worry about replacing guys like Ward, Smith, Hampton, or Farrior.

Constant game of trade-offs, and it seems pretty clear that the Steelers' priorities are defense first, offensive skill positions second, and then do the best you can with everything else, which includes the offensive line.

hukfinn
04-09-2012, 12:39 PM
on a side note, why do other teams end up with multiple first round picks ? Have the Steelers ever had multiple first round picks ? The Steelers are the draft oriented team building model, right ? The Bengals and Browns both have the chance to pick twice before the Steelers this year ! Darn them and dang it ! We can only hope they make the same typical stupid mistakes forever !

suitanim
04-09-2012, 12:42 PM
on a side note, why do other teams end up with multiple first round picks ? Have the Steelers ever had multiple first round picks ? The Steelers are the draft oriented team building model, right ? The Bengals and Browns both have the chance to pick twice before the Steelers this year ! Darn them and dang it ! We can only hope they make the same typical stupid mistakes forever !

Hey Steve....how's China?

TMC
04-09-2012, 01:35 PM
I think the line we are looking at right now is Gilbert, Legs, Pouncey, Foster, and Colon. Gilbert would be in his first pro season at LT. Colon is coming off an injury. I still do not feel Legs has the power to anchor and Foster is average. We have no depth either.

I would state that our OL is below average right now. Last season, the Steelers ran 434 times with 1015 offensive plays. It was 42.7% of the time. They ran okay. The sacks numbers were down a little. But, will Colon be healthy? Can Gilbert perform as well as Starks?

I think they need to invest something on the OL. I mean, we can produce, but it just feels shaky to me. If they drafted a first round OL, I could buy into that totally. We are as needy at OT and OG as we are at NT and ILB.

oneforthetoe
04-09-2012, 02:44 PM
I expect to see Starks back in a back-up role. Also, don't be surprised if Essex is back as well. The man is an average talent at best. Still, you have to give him credit. His willingness to learn to play every position on the line, with some amount of competence, has permitted Essex to carve out a pretty good career. A guy who can play every position on the line is pretty valuable on game day.

ShutDown24
04-09-2012, 02:49 PM
I expect to see Starks back in a back-up role. Also, don't be surprised if Essex is back as well. The man is an average talent at best. Still, you have to give him credit. His willingness to learn to play every position on the line, with some amount of competence, has permitted Essex to carve out a pretty good career. A guy who can play every position on the line is pretty valuable on game day.

I would love to see Essex back.

Count Steeler
04-09-2012, 03:46 PM
Want proof the Steelers aren't that interested in the OL? If we can all agree that the Steelers build via the draft and not FA (and I HOPE we can all agree on at least that, since it's pretty much accepted as fact), let's look at the last 5 drafts:
2011: One OL drafted, Gilbert in rd 2. He was 1 of 6 picks
2010: Pouncey in first, Scott in 5th. 2 out of 10 picks.
2009: Urbik in round 2. 1 of 9 picks.
2008: Hills in the 4th. 1 of 7 picks.
2007: No one. Zero out of 8 picks.

Average round selected: 3.5
Percentage of OL selected in all draft picks: 5 out of 40 picks. 12.5%

Since most teams carry 9-10 OL, roughly 20% of the roster is made up of OL. We only draft (and this is predicated upon ALL our draft picks making the team) at 12.5%, so even if they all make it we have a roughly 8% gap.

Sorry suit. You've missed a couple of draft picks. 2 drafted in 2011. 2 in 2009 and 1 in 2007.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3900&type=team

ShutDown24
04-09-2012, 03:51 PM
Sorry suit. You've missed a couple of draft picks. 2 drafted in 2011. 2 in 2009 and 1 in 2007.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3900&type=team

Not to mention Urbik was a third round selection, not second. But hey, minor details... :chuckle:

suitanim
04-09-2012, 04:16 PM
Not to mention Urbik was a third round selection, not second. But hey, minor details... :chuckle:

Yeah, because the fact that we rarely draft OL, and when we do it's usually later rounds is completely destroyed because I did quicky research, right?

The facts stand. We aren't a team dedicated to the OL. We just aren't. What is patently ridiculous is that we have now been relegated to people ignoring the facts and selecting their stance on positions based more on who posits what rather than the actual reality. Basically, we DO pay more attention to the OL than we really do just because it's ME who says we don't.

Retarded.

X-Terminator
04-09-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm thinking those were corrections and not a dismissal of your argument, Suit.

ALLD
04-09-2012, 04:40 PM
The Steeler's offensive line is, offensive.

Count Steeler
04-09-2012, 04:55 PM
Yeah, because the fact that we rarely draft OL, and when we do it's usually later rounds is completely destroyed because I did quicky research, right?

The facts stand. We aren't a team dedicated to the OL. We just aren't. What is patently ridiculous is that we have now been relegated to people ignoring the facts and selecting their stance on positions based more on who posits what rather than the actual reality. Basically, we DO pay more attention to the OL than we really do just because it's ME who says we don't.

Retarded.

I mean seriously, dude. The first link I picked showed the actual draft picks. The only reason I looked is that I KNOW that we picked 2 O linemen last year. If you want to take a stand, don't make it look like you have done exhaustive research. It weakens your argument. I am very careful how I posit my opinions here. If I haven't checked the facts, I wait before jumping in. If I do jump in and make a mistake, I don't take it personal if someone corrects me.

I think the argument can be made that the Steelers have neglected the O Line for a long time, but they have taken steps in the last 2 years to make some advancements. 4 picks in the last 2 seasons, 1 being a first rounder, 1 a second rounder. 1 Free agent pickup, Hotel Adams.

I would be shocked if we don't take at least 1 O Lineman in the first 3 rounds. I would not be surprised to see us take 2 O Linemen in this draft.

suitanim
04-09-2012, 05:40 PM
I mean seriously, dude. The first link I picked showed the actual draft picks. The only reason I looked is that I KNOW that we picked 2 O linemen last year. If you want to take a stand, don't make it look like you have done exhaustive research. It weakens your argument. I am very careful how I posit my opinions here. If I haven't checked the facts, I wait before jumping in. If I do jump in and make a mistake, I don't take it personal if someone corrects me.

I think the argument can be made that the Steelers have neglected the O Line for a long time, but they have taken steps in the last 2 years to make some advancements. 4 picks in the last 2 seasons, 1 being a first rounder, 1 a second rounder. 1 Free agent pickup, Hotel Adams.

I would be shocked if we don't take at least 1 O Lineman in the first 3 rounds. I would not be surprised to see us take 2 O Linemen in this draft.


I hope so...and my post wasn't directed at you. I'm just..........................frustrated with a few people.

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-09-2012, 06:01 PM
Remember the good ole days when we drafted talent like Faneca in the 1st, Marvel Smith-2nd, Kendall Simmons 1st, Starks -3rd and then looked for talent like Hartings(1st round pick) and Wayne Gandy in free agency??

The line has been ignored for quite a while until using a 3rd on Urbik, a 1st on Pouncey and a 2nd on Gilbert. I think we will see some more attention paid to it this draft, since there is a decent amount of talent available.

Count Steeler
04-09-2012, 06:05 PM
Remember the good ole days when we drafted talent like Faneca in the 1st, Marvel Smith-2nd, Kendall Simmons 1st, Starks -3rd and then looked for talent like Hartings(1st round pick) and Wayne Gandy in free agency??

The line has been ignored for quite a while until using a 3rd on Urbik, a 1st on Pouncey and a 2nd on Gilbert. I think we will see some more attention paid to it this draft, since there is a decent amount of talent available.

Not sure why we bailed so quickly on Urbik. Perhaps something behind the scenes that we are not meant to know about. Seems like he is developing well in Buffalo. We would have quite a line going into this season if we had him as well.

Devilsdancefloor
04-09-2012, 09:17 PM
Not sure why we bailed so quickly on Urbik. Perhaps something behind the scenes that we are not meant to know about. Seems like he is developing well in Buffalo. We would have quite a line going into this season if we had him as well.

I wasnt very happy when urbik went to the bills. I do think we will see several OL drafted this year like gonzo stated

ShutDown24
04-09-2012, 09:52 PM
Yeah, because the fact that we rarely draft OL, and when we do it's usually later rounds is completely destroyed because I did quicky research, right?

The facts stand. We aren't a team dedicated to the OL. We just aren't. What is patently ridiculous is that we have now been relegated to people ignoring the facts and selecting their stance on positions based more on who posits what rather than the actual reality. Basically, we DO pay more attention to the OL than we really do just because it's ME who says we don't.

Retarded.

No one is trying to be a dick, but if you're going to try a go-to-the-research type of argument you need to have your stuff together. I'm not even disagreeing with what you're trying to say because, quite frankly, I don't understand whatever argument you are attempting to make. But skewing the stats to support your theories isn't going to work around here - too many knowledgeable people.

pepsyman1
04-10-2012, 12:05 AM
Depending on what Haley does with our passing attack, I think we will see some improvement from the line this year. Ben is always going to have a certain amount of freelancing to keep a play alive, but if we are a little more coherent with how we execute the passing plays and Ben gets rid of the ball a little quicker, it will take huge amounts of pressure off the line. There is only so many times a game a line can give a QB 5 or 6 seconds worth of protection.

Texasteel
04-10-2012, 07:13 AM
Remember the good ole days when we drafted talent like Faneca in the 1st, Marvel Smith-2nd, Kendall Simmons 1st, Starks -3rd and then looked for talent like Hartings(1st round pick) and Wayne Gandy in free agency??

The line has been ignored for quite a while until using a 3rd on Urbik, a 1st on Pouncey and a 2nd on Gilbert. I think we will see some more attention paid to it this draft, since there is a decent amount of talent available.

The way things seem to be playing out I would expect a OG in the 3rd round, maybe the second depending on what happens with the DTs. Then maybe an OT with 5 or 6. Anyone else getting the same feeling?

suitanim
04-10-2012, 08:01 AM
No one is trying to be a dick, but if you're going to try a go-to-the-research type of argument you need to have your stuff together. I'm not even disagreeing with what you're trying to say because, quite frankly, I don't understand whatever argument you are attempting to make. But skewing the stats to support your theories isn't going to work around here - too many knowledgeable people.

Are you fucking kidding me? You're going to pull the "I'm more intelligent than you" card again?

I did a quickey look-up...adding a couple more OL picks (especially late round picks) that I missed in in no way impugns or discredits what I was trying to show, which is that we CLEARLY neglect OL in the draft. Basically, you just follow behind my posts now and try to punch holes in them. Duly noted.

steelerdude15
04-10-2012, 08:47 AM
I could see the Steelers drafting a guard or tackle in the second round. I believe guard is more important to upgrade, but I wouldn't be offended if we took a tackle in the second, I really like what I see out of Bobby Masie from Auburn. Big guy with good hands and footwork and has the potential to be moved to guard if needed.

ShutDown24
04-10-2012, 10:34 AM
Are you fucking kidding me? You're going to pull the "I'm more intelligent than you" card again?

I did a quickey look-up...adding a couple more OL picks (especially late round picks) that I missed in in no way impugns or discredits what I was trying to show, which is that we CLEARLY neglect OL in the draft. Basically, you just follow behind my posts now and try to punch holes in them. Duly noted.

Whatever. Like I said, no one is trying to be a dick. But it only took a couple of seconds to find the correct info - so yeah, it pretty much does look like you were leaving things out on purpose. I'm not really accusing you of that, but if you're going to take the time to type out a point, might as well do it right. You shouldn't post blatantly inaccurate information about the Steelers and not expect to be corrected.

LLT
04-10-2012, 10:42 AM
Lets drop the pissing contest and get back on track...good discussion....just drop the personal insults and the internalizing.

Fair enough?

suitanim
04-10-2012, 10:44 AM
Whatever. Like I said, no one is trying to be a dick. But it only took a couple of seconds to find the correct info - so yeah, it pretty much does look like you were leaving things out on purpose. I'm not really accusing you of that, but if you're going to take the time to type out a point, might as well do it right. You shouldn't post blatantly inaccurate information about the Steelers and not expect to be corrected.

Oh, I expect to be corrected all right...

It's irrelevant. Plus, part of my problem is I'm not a cut-n-paste Google expert. I do a lot of this stuff off the top of my head...and I don't have an eidetic memory. It hardly matters that I got the round of Urbik wrong, or missed a couple late round scrap-heap picks that crashed and burned. The salient point is that the Steelers neglect their offensive line...being nitpicky and trying to flame me over a nothing issue does nothing to change that.

ShutDown24
04-10-2012, 10:49 AM
Oh, I expect to be corrected all right...

It's irrelevant. Plus, part of my problem is I'm not a cut-n-paste Google expert. I do a lot of this stuff off the top of my head...and I don't have an eidetic memory. It hardly matters that I got the round of Urbik wrong, or missed a couple late round scrap-heap picks that crashed and burned. The salient point is that the Steelers neglect their offensive line...being nitpicky and trying to flame me over a nothing issue does nothing to change that.

I think it's fairly obvious I'm not trying to flame you. No need to sit here and go back & forth over some issue that is non-existent. Let's take LLT's advice and continue the discussion.

I think the team is doing what it needs to. Addressing the line with a couple of picks depending on value each draft. If we select another linemen in the early rounds this year, that gives us some great talent up front. What would you suggest should be done differently?

suitanim
04-10-2012, 11:07 AM
Spend 30% of the draft on OL. That means we should select at least 3 OL this draft, and preferably not all in rounds 5-7.

ShutDown24
04-10-2012, 11:13 AM
Spend 30% of the draft on OL. That means we should select at least 3 OL this draft, and preferably not all in rounds 5-7.

So you would suggest selecting an offensive linemen in rounds 1, 3, 4 or 1, 2, 4 or 2, 3, 4 - some variation like that?

I think that ignores other needs far too much. To me, Ben can handle the offensive without a strong line... But the defense is what make the Steelers tick. I would be more concerned with keeping the defense up to par. I would select one offensive linemen in the early rounds and one in the later rounds, as the team has been doing. I feel that is the responsible way to go about it.

suitanim
04-10-2012, 11:27 AM
How about 2, 4 and 5? Or 1,3 and 6?

I just don't want to see one guy selected in round 6. that's how we got into this mess in the first place.

In order of importance (but not necessarily draft order)
1. OG
2. ILB
3. NT

Then S, TE, RB, QB...etc, etc...

I'd like to see an OG, an OT, and a NT and ILB all in the first 5 rounds. I'm hoping we sign Kitchen from Kent State as an UDFA. That gives us two NT prospects.

Edit: And I hope we trade out of the pick in the first with the Rams if Hightower, Poe and DeCastro are all gone, or our second pick with the Dolphins if we don't trade up in the first. As LLT has already pointed out, this draft is solid rounds 2-4 at everything BUT ILB, and we have more needs than I can remember in recent years...

I also wish there was something we could do about ILB via free agency.

ShutDown24
04-10-2012, 11:43 AM
I'd like to see an OG, an OT, and a NT and ILB all in the first 5 rounds. .

I can buy that, but as far as addressing the offensive line near those rounds, I don't really think that's too far off from what the team has been doing.

Steelers selected an Olinemen

2011: 2nd, 6th

2010: 1st, 5th

2009: 3rd, 7th

Maybe not exactly what you're suggesting, but that's quite a number of quality picks spent on the offensive line. Maybe what you're suggesting isn't too far off from what is happening?

I think it's important to remember that these picks were probably based off of value. Maybe if things had fallen differently, an offensive linemen would have been BPA in earlier rounds.

LLT
04-10-2012, 12:13 PM
I'd like to see an OG, an OT, and a NT and ILB all in the first 5 rounds.

another good reason to trade out of the 1st...

Trading our 1st away with a team like Seattle, for instance, will give us their #43, #75, and trading our #119 for thier #106.

That would give us a draft of #43...#56...#75...#86...#106...#159 in the first 5 rounds. That might actually meet all our needs and place us in the portion of this draft where the value lies.

suitanim
04-10-2012, 12:37 PM
another good reason to trade out of the 1st...

Trading our 1st away with a team like Seattle, for instance, will give us their #43, #75, and trading our #119 for thier #106.

That would give us a draft of #43...#56...#75...#86...#106...#159 in the first 5 rounds. That might actually meet all our needs and place us in the portion of this draft where the value lies.


We actually trade up (and down) more than people think. We traded up for Troy and Santo, and we traded a 2 and a 4 for two 3's in 2009 (and Got Urbik [who we should have kept] and Mike Wallace). Almost every draft over the last 10 years we've traded some picks, usually in the middle or later rounds. I really don't see us moving up, but we have so many needs...

LLT
04-10-2012, 12:38 PM
We actually trade up (and down) more than people think. We traded up for Troy and Santo, and we traded a 2 and a 4 for two 3's in 2009 (and Got Urbik [who we should have kept] and Mike Wallace). I really don't see us moving up, but we have so many needs...

Agreed...perfect year to trade out of either the 1st or 2nd rounds to gather a few more mid round picks.

Texasteel
04-10-2012, 01:37 PM
Agreed...perfect year to trade out of either the 1st or 2nd rounds to gather a few more mid round picks.


Personally, I would like to see us drop out of the 1st round, and try to pick up Zeitler, and Chapman. Then grab ILBer Johnson in the 3rd. We should end up with another 4th rounder as well, there are a few 4th round players I like a lot. As much as I like Hightower, I think this could make for a better draft.

But then I've said this for the last 3 year and it hasn't happened yet.

ShutDown24
04-10-2012, 01:48 PM
But then I've said this for the last 3 year and it hasn't happened yet.

Yeah, trading down always seems like a great idea yet the Steelers never seem to jump. I think they just like lining up and making their picks. And maybe it's for the better. The Patriots always try and do the trade down for value thing and it rarely seems to work out (With a few obvious exceptions). Now, I think the Steelers have better scouting personnel, but all the same - maybe it's best just not to overthink things. I don't know, just a thought.

LLT
04-11-2012, 02:23 PM
Personally, I would like to see us drop out of the 1st round, and try to pick up Zeitler, and Chapman. Then grab ILBer Johnson in the 3rd. We should end up with another 4th rounder as well, there are a few 4th round players I like a lot. As much as I like Hightower, I think this could make for a better draft.

But then I've said this for the last 3 year and it hasn't happened yet.

True...but we did trade out of the 2nd two years ago. That would still work for me. If the 2nd round is the target area in which we are going to trade down for more picks, Im hoping Worthy or Poe is our first round pick.

ALLD
04-11-2012, 02:25 PM
Do we have intact a line that can produce or not? Looking for some feed-back.

Yes, the current formation performs plenty of sacks and backfield RB tackles for the other team, but makes up for it with several unnecessary holding calls.