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View Full Version : Claiborne gives birth to a four on the Wonderlic



polamalubeast
04-03-2012, 10:00 AM
The NFL has kept the Wonderlic results under tighter wraps than usual this year. Or maybe the media has had enough other things to keep itself occupied.

Regardless, the first eye-opening score has leaked from the 2012 edition of the 50-question Wonderlic test. Per multiple league sources, LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne scored a four.

Yes. A four. Out of 50.


read more

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/claiborne-gives-birth-to-a-four-on-the-wonderlic/

Bluecoat96
04-03-2012, 10:03 AM
Geez...what did he do, answer every question with the word, "potato?"

suitanim
04-03-2012, 10:08 AM
Look, statistically speaking, it's really not possible to get much less than a 10-12. This is a multiple choice test, and you have 12 minutes to answer 50 questions, so if you just mark "A" you should get 10-12 right.

I said the same thing for Vince Young when he scored a 6...this guy is, most likely, illiterate. Look at the evidence. About half (yes, HALF) the people in Detroit are functionally illiterate. The schools sucks, and they just pass kids through....Detroit is hardly alone in this. Texas is a decent school, but LSU is hardly the University of Chicago. They probably had some other person take his tests for him and let it slide because he's a stud on the gridiron.

My guess is that when young got to the NFL, they taught him to read, and they'll do the same with this guy. But it's a sad situation. On another note, I've taken a Wonderlic, and it ain't all that hard. IQ tests are much, much more difficult.

zulater
04-03-2012, 02:43 PM
I think it's really unfair to potential draft prospects that the NFL lets Wonderlic scores slip out. That information should only be available to the teams. If it slips out then if the source is found out the offending party and team should be subject to severe disciplinary actions by the league including fines, suspensions, and loss of draft choices.

Chidi29
04-03-2012, 03:35 PM
It is so much more complicated than Player "X" got a "Y" on his test so we can determine "Z".

1. I'd be willing to bet the score is incorrect. This happens all the time. Terrelle Pryor was reported to get a 7. That was false. Greg McElroy was aaid to have gotten a 48. That was false. I don't know why PFT keeps reporting Wonderlic scores when they are chroncily incorrect.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/31/report-pryor-scored-a-seven-on-the-wonderlic/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/28/greg-mcelroy-gets-a-48-on-the-wonderlic/

And yes, while they're pulling those reports after other beat writers report it, it doesn't make it acceptable. How many times must someone be punched in the face before they put up their hands?

2. We know the Wonderlic scores are closely guarded. I believe they are adminstered by GMs only. For example, Kevin Colbert gave Terrelle Pryor his test. Scouts don't have knowledge of the test scores. Greg Gabriel of National Football Post wrote today,


The League has stated that the scores are to be kept private and, in many cases, the scouts at most clubs don’t know the scores.

3. Claiborne has a learning disabiilty. This was also backed up by Gabriel.


When Claiborne came out of high school, the schools that recruited him knew he had a learning disability. I don’t know much about his disability other than it has to do with reading. Everyone I have talked to tells me that Claiborne has great character and is a great kid. He knows and understands his disability and uses all the resources that LSU has available to control it and to help him get by in the classroom

And now he is splashed all over the media, getting killed for being an idiot over something he can't control. While the learning disability is a legitimate concern, teams already knew that. I bet no one was expecting him to get 40 on it.

4. He started on one of the best defenses facing SEC compeition. Unless he has to figure out how at what time two trains will meet at Omaha on the football field, I could really care less.

I'm usually not one to complain about the media but it has really made me feel sick and disgusted lately. There are some good guys out there like Gabriel but the overwhelming majority don't care about doing their homework. I saw a report a few days before William Gay signed with the Cardinals that the Steelers were out of the running. When all you had to go was go to his Twitter and see that he listed the Steelers as one of the final four candidates. Unreal.

Chidi29
04-03-2012, 03:55 PM
It takes about two minutes to find that he had a 2.5 GPA and a score of 20 on his ACT (which is pretty poor). So we already knew that he wasn't the best test taker. If the report is false, and it probably is, and he really got a 15, that would be expected. So it's much ado about nothing.

Here's a link to the GPA and ACT info. It's on Scout and Rivals. I'm sure if I had an insider pass to Scout, I could find an article talking about the disability

http://louisianastate.scout.com/a.z?s=107&p=8&c=1&nid=3860877&pg=4

86WARD
04-03-2012, 03:58 PM
I think it's really unfair to potential draft prospects that the NFL lets Wonderlic scores slip out. That information should only be available to the teams. If it slips out then if the source is found out the offending party and team should be subject to severe disciplinary actions by the league including fines, suspensions, and loss of draft choices.

This!

Also think that if someone has a learning disability or whatever and doesn't think
They will
Do well, just skip the test for crying out loud...

ALLD
04-03-2012, 04:20 PM
He couldn't spell "LSU" if you spotted him the "L" and the "U".

suitanim
04-03-2012, 05:01 PM
C'mon.

These guys are "paid" to play football. Nobody gives a shit if they can read.

zulater
04-03-2012, 05:28 PM
C'mon.

These guys are "paid" to play football. Nobody gives a shit if they can read.

They're also human beings and you can bet they hear about this from their friends.

suitanim
04-03-2012, 06:48 PM
They're also human beings and you can bet they hear about this from their friends.

My response was directed more towards the apologists saying that "This simply cannot be!".

Of course it can. This stuff still goes on...athletes get special treatment from about 6th grade on...

st33lersguy
04-03-2012, 07:00 PM
Either Claiborne is dumber than dirt or he put forth no effort and randomly guessed everything.

ShutDown24
04-03-2012, 07:11 PM
Wonderlic scores are garbage. That said, I doubt he got a 4. Anyone who has listened to Claiborne talk knows he's not stupid. He's probably just bad at tests. I don't put much stock in written tests or exams. I think they are a poor way to judge a persons intellect and are one of the larger reasons a lot of the most successful people in this country did not attend college. Claiborne is an amazing prospect. Has the best instincts of anyone in this draft class, is a complete corner and carries himself well & speaks well. If any team were to pass on him due to this score, accurate or inaccurate, they'll be regretting that mistake for a very long time.

Godfather
04-03-2012, 07:12 PM
The report has to be wrong. A 20 on the ACT is nothing special, but you only need a 17 to play college football and the national average is something like 21 or 22. Based on all known information he's slightly below average.

No way did he score that low.

suitanim
04-03-2012, 08:03 PM
Wonderlic scores are NOT "garbage". It's been around since 1936, and has literally been used millions of times in hundreds of professions as a gauge of aptitude and intelligence. As in any case wher a standardized test is used, there are variables that might mitigate scores, but, by and large, these things are pretty reliable at judging relative intelligence.

Do the naysayers really believe that the NFL uses this test for no reason at all?

ShutDown24
04-03-2012, 09:09 PM
Wonderlic scores are NOT "garbage". It's been around since 1936, and has literally been used millions of times in hundreds of professions as a gauge of aptitude and intelligence. As in any case wher a standardized test is used, there are variables that might mitigate scores, but, by and large, these things are pretty reliable at judging relative intelligence.

Do the naysayers really believe that the NFL uses this test for no reason at all?

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how far Claiborne falls then, huh?

suitanim
04-04-2012, 05:29 AM
He probably won't fall at all. He's a cornerback, not a quarterback. His job is to react.

This isn't about his relative retardation or (much more likely) illiteracy, this goes back to the hypocrisy that many college football programs have nothing at all to do with education.

And if the wonderlic is useless, I ask, why does the NFL still use it?

Bluecoat96
04-04-2012, 06:38 AM
He probably won't fall at all. He's a cornerback, not a quarterback. His job is to react.

This isn't about his relative retardation or (much more likely) illiteracy, this goes back to the hypocrisy that many college football programs have nothing at all to do with education.

And if the wonderlic is useless, I ask, why does the NFL still use it?

If it is true that he has a LD, and hasn't been completely coddled throughout his schooling, then I give him serious props for excelling in his chosen field. I have been a teacher for a good while now, and have seen many children who severely struggle in academics excell in their non-core classes, like mine. I'm not tooting my own horn or anything, I teach music for a living and see "special need" kids do well all the time. Everybody can learn, it's just a matter of how and how fast.

86WARD
04-04-2012, 07:46 AM
Wonderlic scores are NOT "garbage". It's been around since 1936, and has literally been used millions of times in hundreds of professions as a gauge of aptitude and intelligence. As in any case wher a standardized test is used, there are variables that might mitigate scores, but, by and large, these things are pretty reliable at judging relative intelligence.

Do the naysayers really believe that the NFL uses this test for no reason at all?

It's not taken seriously by most of these potential draft picks...do therefore, it gets knocked as not having a lot of credibility. Also the results are supposed to be private...obviously, they never are...

suitanim
04-04-2012, 08:29 AM
Luck reportedly scored a 41.

Anyway, the test is 80 years old, and is used by hundreds of companies in their hiring process, INCLUDING the NFL. It obviously serves a purpose, whether some MB ham-n-eggers believe it or not.

I get back to the fact that some schools are obviously just passing their best athletes through. College football is big business. That also makes the accomplishments of schools like Notre Dame and Stanford (the latter especially) who hold and KEEP their entrance standards very, very high all the more impressive.

steeldevil
04-04-2012, 08:36 AM
Anyone think SEC football players do any of their schoolwork? I mean really...

The SEC wont suspend guys or punish schools for academic reasons, and the NCAA wont hurt it's current cash cow by doing anything about it. UK basketball is the exact same too.

ShutDown24
04-04-2012, 08:53 AM
He probably won't fall at all. He's a cornerback, not a quarterback. His job is to react.

This isn't about his relative retardation or (much more likely) illiteracy, this goes back to the hypocrisy that many college football programs have nothing at all to do with education.

And if the wonderlic is useless, I ask, why does the NFL still use it?

If it's not useless, I ask, why will he "probably not fall at all". You just proved my point for me. It's garbage.

suitanim
04-04-2012, 08:54 AM
Because he's a cornerback. Probably the position requiring the LEAST intellect on the whole team.

Would you draft a quarterback who scored a 4?

I would not. Because it most likely is a strong indicator that the guy will not even be able to read the playbook.

Chidi29
04-04-2012, 10:06 AM
Luck reportedly scored a 41.

Anyway, the test is 80 years old, and is used by hundreds of companies in their hiring process, INCLUDING the NFL. It obviously serves a purpose, whether some MB ham-n-eggers believe it or not.

I get back to the fact that some schools are obviously just passing their best athletes through. College football is big business. That also makes the accomplishments of schools like Notre Dame and Stanford (the latter especially) who hold and KEEP their entrance standards very, very high all the more impressive.

Say it with me, suit. Learning disabiilty. There's a reason why the score is low.

And like I said. It's very likely higher than a four.

suitanim
04-04-2012, 10:20 AM
Say it with me, suit. Learning disabiilty. There's a reason why the score is low.

And like I said. It's very likely higher than a four.

Yeah....did you read further? That learning disability centers around............say it with me now..........................HIS ABILITY TO READ.

People who can't read are called "illiterate". Say it with ME now. People who can't read, or have difficulty reading, are I-L-L-I-T-E-R-A-T-E.

Why does every fucking thing I post here end up in an argument? If this kid was a football stud, he's be working as a landscaper...LSU walked him through.

SteelMember
04-04-2012, 10:23 AM
If his learning disability is reading comprehension, then his score could be much improved if he had an "exception" and took the test verbally. I have heard of people doing that with the SAT. Regardless, at this point he's probably not too worried about tests anymore. He seems to understand arithmetic, and he knows what top 10 equals.

zulater
04-04-2012, 10:26 AM
Whatever his score, it should be a private matter. I was listening to ESPN radio yesterday afternoon and Doug Gottlieb was just brutalizing this poor kid with one dumb joke after another.

I get it that the kid is coming in for a nice pay day soon enough. But really getting slammed all over the air and internet for being a supposed dummy has got to cut to the bone.

Outside of testing poorly this kid did nothing I've heard of to bring this sort of ridicule on himself.

If I were an agent of a can't miss non qb prospect I would probably tell the people at the NFL combine to shove the wonderlic test right up their ass( not let my client take the test) and tell them this sort of incident is exactly why.

SteelMember
04-04-2012, 10:29 AM
I agree the leak should be plugged, and the offender penalized.

This probably happened from a team who has interest, but is not in position for the pick. They're thought being they could possibly scare another team away releasing the info.

zulater
04-04-2012, 10:38 AM
Luck reportedly scored a 41.

Anyway, the test is 80 years old, and is used by hundreds of companies in their hiring process, INCLUDING the NFL. It obviously serves a purpose, whether some MB ham-n-eggers believe it or not.

I get back to the fact that some schools are obviously just passing their best athletes through. College football is big business. That also makes the accomplishments of schools like Notre Dame and Stanford (the latter especially) who hold and KEEP their entrance standards very, very high all the more impressive.


Or maybe not.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/story/_/id/7770388/2012-nfl-draft-morris-claiborne-top-cb-prospect-scored-4-wonderlic-sources-say


A 2009 study by professors from Fresno State University, the University of Georgia and Towson State found no connection between Wonderlic scores and performance during the first three years of a player's NFL career. The group studied 762 players from the 2002, 2003 and 2004 draft classes.

John W. Michel, an assistant professor at Towson University who co-authored the study, told The Washington Post: "We found in no cases was cognitive ability related to [football] performance. We did find a negative relationship for tight ends and defensive backs. For defensive backs, it was the most pronounced; basically, the lower you scored on the Wonderlic, the better you performed."

suitanim
04-04-2012, 10:55 AM
Or maybe not.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/story/_/id/7770388/2012-nfl-draft-morris-claiborne-top-cb-prospect-scored-4-wonderlic-sources-say


A 2009 study by professors from Fresno State University, the University of Georgia and Towson State found no connection between Wonderlic scores and performance during the first three years of a player's NFL career. The group studied 762 players from the 2002, 2003 and 2004 draft classes.

John W. Michel, an assistant professor at Towson University who co-authored the study, told The Washington Post: "We found in no cases was cognitive ability related to [football] performance. We did find a negative relationship for tight ends and defensive backs. For defensive backs, it was the most pronounced; basically, the lower you scored on the Wonderlic, the better you performed."


Well, then there is the 26-27-60 thing I posted elsewhere. But, you know, whatever...

Point STILL is, these kids get a pass through high school and college. The SEC is bad in this regard...most of the schools are bottom-of-the-barrel academically. I guess it's un-PC to point it out openly, though...

86WARD
04-04-2012, 10:56 AM
Rod Woodson said he blew the test off...worked out well for him too...

X-Terminator
04-04-2012, 11:20 AM
Point STILL is, these kids get a pass through high school and college. The SEC is bad in this regard...most of the schools are bottom-of-the-barrel academically. I guess it's un-PC to point it out openly, though...

WVU could not get into the SEC, so as bad as they apparently are, they must have some academic standards.

suitanim
04-04-2012, 11:30 AM
WVU could not get into the SEC, so as bad as they apparently are, they must have some academic standards.

There are some really good schools in the SEC. Vanderbilt is a top-notch school. Florida and Georgia are really good schools. I think Bama ain't bad either. But I remember there was a LOT of talk about this a year or two ago when the rapid expansion was going on, particularly in regard to the SEC vs. the Big Ten. The standards for the Big Ten are such that only a handful of SEC schools could qualify. The bottom-of-the-barrel SEC schools are pretty bad.

But Texas is a good school, and they probably passed Vince Young right through, too. I think it's a problem that isn't only endemic to the south or the SEC.

zulater
04-04-2012, 11:31 AM
Well, then there is the 26-27-60 thing I posted elsewhere. But, you know, whatever...

Point STILL is, these kids get a pass through high school and college. The SEC is bad in this regard...most of the schools are bottom-of-the-barrel academically. I guess it's un-PC to point it out openly, though...

I wouldn't mind this being brought to the forefront if the athletes names were hidden and this was simply being used to bring light to the SEC or any other conferences lack of academic standards. I just don't like the personal nature this takes on when an athletes name is exposed.

atlsteelers
04-04-2012, 11:43 AM
The SEC is bad in this regard...most of the schools are bottom-of-the-barrel academically. I guess it's un-PC to point it out openly, though...

i believe OSUs "student" athlete terrelle pryor scored a 7 the first time he took it.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128838323.html

suitanim
04-04-2012, 11:52 AM
i believe OSUs "student" athlete terrelle pryor scored a 7 the first time he took it.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128838323.html

That's basically another version of the "Bu-bu-bu-Bush" diversionary tactic.

Our schools suck? "Hey! Wait....look over THERE!"

Anyway, Pryor is a dummy....not disputing that. But I think the accurate number was a 21 or 22.

Chidi29
04-04-2012, 01:34 PM
Yeah....did you read further? That learning disability centers around............say it with me now..........................HIS ABILITY TO READ.

People who can't read are called "illiterate". Say it with ME now. People who can't read, or have difficulty reading, are I-L-L-I-T-E-R-A-T-E.

Why does every fucking thing I post here end up in an argument? If this kid was a football stud, he's be working as a landscaper...LSU walked him through.

But who says who got a pass? Who says he can't read? Obviously he struggles and likely takes longer than others. That's not going to help you out when you have a timed 50 question test with the pressure the NFL Draft brings, with a GM of a football team adminstering the test.

You're point is that LSU passed him through school. Says who? From what Gabriel said, he was a hard working kid who did try. I'm sure he sought out help, tutoring, special needs, whatever, but it doesn't mean that the school just blindly let him make a mockery out of education because he played on the football team.

suitanim
04-04-2012, 04:29 PM
The Wonderlic isn't applied by people from LSU who have a dog in the hunt and something to protect. It's an NFL thing, administered in an unbiased fashion and with complete transparency. This is what shines a light on these problems.

And apologists like you are what occults these problems.

oneforthetoe
04-04-2012, 04:52 PM
He couldn't spell "LSU" if you spotted him the "L" and the "U".

Hollywood Henderson, is that you? ;)

Count Steeler
04-04-2012, 05:33 PM
You're point is that LSU passed him through school. Says who? From what Gabriel said, he was a hard working kid who did try. I'm sure he sought out help, tutoring, special needs, whatever, but it doesn't mean that the school just blindly let him make a mockery out of education because he played on the football team.

Now you are presuming? Just because you would do it, does not mean everyone else would. I would hope he did, but don't presume.

Chidi29
04-04-2012, 08:07 PM
Now you are presuming? Just because you would do it, does not mean everyone else would. I would hope he did, but don't presume.

I base that off Gabriel's statement,

He knows and understands his disability and uses all the resources that LSU has available to control it and to help him get by in the classroom

So yes, I'll presume when I have evidence to back it up. Once there's evidence that LSU let the kid walk through because he's an athlete, he can presume just as much.

Chidi29
04-04-2012, 08:08 PM
The Wonderlic isn't applied by people from LSU who have a dog in the hunt and something to protect. It's an NFL thing, administered in an unbiased fashion and with complete transparency. This is what shines a light on these problems.

And apologists like you are what occults these problems.

What problem? That he has a disability? We already knew that. Did anyone expect him to do well on a written test?

ShutDown24
04-04-2012, 11:16 PM
Because he's a cornerback. Probably the position requiring the LEAST intellect on the whole team.

Well if it's useless for cornerbacks, then why does the NFL insist they take the test? You're shooting your own argument in the foot. The wonderlic is garbage.

ShutDown24
04-04-2012, 11:20 PM
These guys are "paid" to play football. Nobody gives a shit if they can read.

Then why say this?


Do the naysayers really believe that the NFL uses this test for no reason at all?

Count Steeler
04-05-2012, 05:26 AM
I base that off Gabriel's statement,

He knows and understands his disability and uses all the resources that LSU has available to control it and to help him get by in the classroom

So yes, I'll presume when I have evidence to back it up. Once there's evidence that LSU let the kid walk through because he's an athlete, he can presume just as much.

That is why I found the wording of your post weird. You don't usually presume. Thanks for clearing that up.

suitanim
04-05-2012, 05:31 AM
Nobody in college cares. They walk these kids through.

Dumb argument anyway. They (the NFL) apply the wonderlic test to EVERYONE at the combine. Now you suggest they should start profiling? "Well, you're a black CB, nobody cares what you score anyway...you don't have to take it". Stupid. And probably grounds for a lawsuit.

If this was a 19 year old black girl with a 1.8 GPA who scored a 19 on her ACT, NOBODY at LSU would give a shit. He got special treatment (and who knows what else) because he's an athlete. Period.

Finally, the NFL actually accommodates people with earning disabilities for this test. All you have to do is ask...

suitanim
04-05-2012, 10:19 AM
Found some interesting stuff about this. Apparently, slapping a "learning disablity" tag on a player is a common way to get then out of attending class.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/091215&sportCat=nfl

In the past two decades, there's been a race to the bottom, in which many football-factory schools have lowered academic standards for football and men's basketball, dropping any pretense of education in pursuit of wins. (NCAA strictures govern whether a player can become a college athlete; colleges or conferences generally impose their own rules about whether athletes, once admitted, remain eligible; some big universities now define a football player taking a half-load of courses pass/fail as a "college student.") Here (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=4737281), "Outside the Lines" details how, at Florida State, a suspiciously high percentage of football players have been classified as learning disabled, which creates exemptions from already lax academic requirements. The lowering of standards in pursuit of wins is incredibly cynical on the part of big universities -- not only do hardly any of the players at colleges that don't focus on educating athletes advance to careers in the NFL, the recruiting pitch could be, "Come here and we'll never make you go to class."

suitanim
04-05-2012, 10:24 AM
If you click the link in that paragraph, you'll fine THIS story: (On a side note, I know someone who went to a Big East school [which shall remain nameless] and basically played this role for football players, reading to them, taking their tests, going to class for them)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=4737281

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- As the learning specialist working with the most academically challenged athletes at Florida State, Brenda Monk was confronted each year with recruits who would seem to have little chance of surviving on a college campus. Their deficiencies were laid out in transcripts and psycho-educational reports submitted during the admissions process.
Sometimes, the athletes knew exactly what they were up against. She recalls a conversation with one such player in her office at Doak Campbell Stadium.
"You might as well know right off the bat, I can't read," he told her.
"Then how are we going to get through these college classes?" she asked.


"It's easy," he responded. "You get to read to me."

That's where Monk set up camp, working on papers and other assignments with what she estimates were about 65 learning disabled athletes. She tells "Outside the Lines" that more than a third of the football team, and three-quarters of the basketball team, had learning disabilities. FSU spokesman Rob Wilson did not respond to requests by "Outside the Lines" for information on the number of learning disabled athletes who were in the program when Monk left.
By comparison, experts estimate that 5 to 10 percent of the general adult population has a learning disability.
Fred Rouse, a former Seminoles receiver, attributes the prevalence of learning disabled athletes to an awareness of the resources available to those with such a diagnosis. He says some players are just lazy and looking for someone else to do their academic work.

"I think it's bull----," says Rouse, who started as a freshman in 2006. "You [as a high school athlete] have all of this time to prepare [academically] before you get to this level, and then when you get here, you play this punk role as, you know, 'I have a learning disability,' when that's not the case."

Chidi29
04-05-2012, 12:50 PM
Suit,

I know it's an issue on a large scale. And to think that teams/athletes don't take advantage of the learning disability to any extent is naive.

But we're talking about a specific situation with a specific player. To automatically write him off as one of those guys who are just cheating the system is simply wrong. Because there ARE people, athletes out there that have a legitimate learning disability. You can't blindly lump them in with everyone else.

And the report I linked said that Claiborne was diagnosed with the learning disability in high school. It didn't magicaly appear once he showed up on LSU's campus.

suitanim
04-05-2012, 03:42 PM
This "specific player" obviously had taken advantage of every "learning disability" perk and short-cut at LSU. There is help available at the combine for this test. Or did he JUST NOW discover he had a learning disability?

Maybe he did?

That doesn't wash. How does one NOT know they can't read? Having a standardized test be the way you're outed is pretty pathetic. Maybe THIS is the role the wonderlic serves for the NFL? Outing the illiterate?

The funny thing is, the longer the people who are wrong in this thread argue that they are right, the more ironic it becomes. There will be more and more kids like this in the future because the high schools are only getting worse, and there will be many more, not less, illiterate kids passed through high school and college solely based on their ability to play a child's sport, and the apologists will only bury their heads deeper in the sand as it happens.

Chidi29
04-05-2012, 03:50 PM
This "specific player" obviously had taken advantage of every "learning disability" perk and short-cut at LSU. There is help available at the combine for this test. Or did he JUST NOW discover he had a learning disability?

Maybe he did?

That doesn't wash. How does one NOT know they can't read? Having a standardized test be the way you're outed is pretty pathetic. Maybe THIS is the role the wonderlic serves for the NFL? Outing the illiterate?


The funny thing is, the longer the people who are wrong in this thread argue that they are right, the more ironic it becomes. There will be more and more kids like this in the future because the high schools are only getting worse, and there will be many more, not less, illiterate kids passed through high school and college solely based on their ability to play a child's sport, and the apologists will only bury their heads deeper in the sand as it happens.

I'm not doubting you have it, but where have you read that there is help for players that have a disability at the Combine?

And no, he did not JUST find out about his disability. Go back and reread what I said. Or, since you're not willing to do that, look at the actual article I referred to.


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-you-should-know-about-Claibornes-test-score.html
"When Claiborne came out of high school, the schools that recruited him knew he had a learning disability"

It's been known since high school. Like I said, not something that magically appeared. He knew he had the disability and that obviously made him struggle on the test (though again, I highly doubt it's a 4). There's a 99% chance teams knew about it. The Wonderlic tells us nothing about him. And obviously, this hasn't affected his football player that much or he wouldn't have been a starting corner int he SEC.

Love that everything comes down to "apologists" and those that are "right". Those are the only two categories that exist in your world.

zulater
04-05-2012, 03:57 PM
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has sent a memo to all 32 teams threatening "significant discipline" to anyone caught leaking confidential information gathered on draft prospects to the public.

The Associated Press obtained the memo, which was sent on Wednesday night after reports that LSU defensive back Morris Claiborne allegedly scored poorly on the Wonderlic test. The exam is used by NFL teams to try to gauge a prospect's intelligence, problem-solving ability and cognitive skills.

Claiborne scored a 4 out of 50 on the test administered at the NFL scouting combine in February, sources confirmed to ESPN.

League rules prohibit officials from disclosing the results, but scores have routinely been leaked for years, both of the very poor and very high variety.

In his memo, Goodell stresses that Wonderlic scores, personal and family histories and drug tests are to be kept strictly confidential.

"You should be reminded that disclosure of inappropriate private or confidential information concerning draft-eligible players is conduct detrimental to the league and will be met with significant discipline when a violation can be established," Goodell wrote.

Much of the information is collected at the annual combine in February. But every year, as the draft gets closer, some teams and officials leak certain information in part to possibly influence how the draft plays out. A poor Wonderlic score or a failed drug test could significantly hurt a player's stock and change the perception of that player with the fan base of the team that chooses him.

"Bear in mind that the publicly disclosed information is frequently inaccurate, incomplete or misleading, and often results from an effort of an individual to advance a self-interested goal," Goodell wrote.

"What is lost in the pursuit of that goal is concern for the reputation and well-being of the young men who have worked so hard to reach their own goal of becoming an NFL player and concern for the reputation of the NFL and our game."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/story/_/id/7778915/2012-nfl-draft-roger-goodell-warns-teams-wonderlic-leaks

suitanim
04-05-2012, 04:11 PM
I'm not doubting you have it, but where have you read that there is help for players that have a disability at the Combine?

And no, he did not JUST find out about his disability. Go back and reread what I said. Or, since you're not willing to do that, look at the actual article I referred to.


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-you-should-know-about-Claibornes-test-score.html
"When Claiborne came out of high school, the schools that recruited him knew he had a learning disability"

It's been known since high school. Like I said, not something that magically appeared. He knew he had the disability and that obviously made him struggle on the test (though again, I highly doubt it's a 4). There's a 99% chance teams knew about it. The Wonderlic tells us nothing about him. And obviously, this hasn't affected his football player that much or he wouldn't have been a starting corner int he SEC.

Love that everything comes down to "apologists" and those that are "right". Those are the only two categories that exist in your world.


I'm tired of looking up sources only to be told that I'm still wrong. I believe something like 65 other players have sought out this help. What does it matter, though? There are always more excuses. The kid will do fine in the NFL, so this will swept under the rug. You and yours will be vindicated as being "right" because yet another kid who can't read gets to be a millionaire, and we all get to enjoy our bread and circus...

I see Goodell took a bold stance..."How dare you leak another score proving yet another kid can't read!"

Bullshit. This is exactly why this problem will only get worse.

Chidi29
04-05-2012, 04:21 PM
I'm tired of looking up sources only to be told that I'm still wrong. I believe something like 65 other players have sought out this help. What does it matter, though? There are always more excuses. The kid will do fine in the NFL, so this will swept under the rug. You and yours will be vindicated as being "right" because yet another kid who can't read gets to be a millionaire, and we all get to enjoy our bread and circus...

I see Goodell took a bold stance..."How dare you leak another score proving yet another kid can't read!"

Bullshit. This is exactly why this problem will only get worse.

All I'm asking you to do is to provide a link to your claim. I never said you were wrong. Heck, I said I figured you had a source. But if you aren't willing to take two seconds to link it (something I've been doing with my info) then don't bother making the argument.

First, it's illegal to disclose any Wonderlic score. Good or bad. Greg McElroy's original score of 48 last year was leaked...only to be proven incorrect. And like Goodell said, often times these leaks are incorrect. It's very possible, and as I've maintained, likely, that Claiborne did not get a four. That he got a 10 or 15.

Again, this particular issue has nothing to do with colleges being diploma mills. It's about a kid with a learning disability who is getting unfairly and harshly criticized for something he can't control.

ShutDown24
04-05-2012, 11:16 PM
The kid will do fine in the NFL, so this will swept under the rug.

Again, you kill your own argument. If he'll be a successful player then why does the league insist the draftees take the wonderlic? According to you, they wouldn't if it had any use, right? Your running circles around your own statements.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 05:44 AM
The point continues to be that the big college football mills are nothing more than a FREE feeder league for the NFL. Situations like this only highlight that point. When something like this leaks out, rather than look a little deeper at the uncomfortable truth, most people do what is quick and painless and easy: "Who cares what his score is? Can he play?"

I believe the illiteracy rate in Detroit is 50%. Just read a report that it's HIGHER than that in East Cleveland (although I don't have a source, so I MUST be making it up, right?). But nobody wants to talk about that, so when a kid comes along that clearly can't read, we need to fire up the old excuse machine and find a way to pass him through to the NFL...and APOLOGIZE TO HIM because he can't read.

World gone mad.

(Here's a source...it's PFT, but it's quoting the combine president):
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/04/combine-president-says-an-accommodation-i-available-for-the-wonderlic/

Jeff Foster, president of National Scouting and the National Invitational Camp (otherwise known as the Scouting Combine), explained to PFT by phone on Wednesday the procedure used when a player has a learning disability. Foster said that, in such cases, the player communicates the existence of the disability in advance of the test. Then, documentation of the disability is obtained from the athlete’s school, and research is done regarding the accommodations provided to the player when taking tests at his college.

Once the learning disability is confirmed, Wonderlic will authorize an “untimed accommodation.” Under this approach, the player takes the 50-question test within the 12-minute allotment. That effort is scored separately, and the player is then permitted to continue taking the test for as long as he needs to complete it. The Wonderlic people later apply a formula to determine the score based on the answers supplied during the 12-minute window and the answers coming thereafter.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 05:45 AM
Which begs the question: Did this kid just NOW discover he had a learning disability? Or was the NFL unable to verify the LD? Or is it that the kid just can't read?

Steeldude
04-06-2012, 06:06 AM
I doubt it was a 4, that seems a little high :wink02:

So he has a learning disability? Is that the excuse for "not paying attention in school for 12+ years"?

Why shouldn't the scores be made public? They allow scores from their physical tests to be released to the public.

fansince'76
04-06-2012, 06:17 AM
Why shouldn't the scores be made public? They allow scores from their physical tests to be released to the public.

Exactly. Goodell cited this (typically ridiculous) reason for not releasing Wonderlic scores:


Much of the information is collected at the annual combine in February. But every year, as the draft gets closer, some teams and officials leak certain information in part to possibly influence how the draft plays out. A poor Wonderlic score or a failed drug test could significantly hurt a player's stock and change the perception of that player with the fan base of the team that chooses him.

Well, wouldn't the same hold true for a subpar 40 time for a WR or a poor number of bench presses for a lineman? "Change the perception of the player with the fan base of the team that chooses him?" Are you kidding me? If the kid turns out to be a stud, the "fan base" isn't going to give a rat's ass if he got popped on a piss test or what his Wonderlic score was.

Count Steeler
04-06-2012, 06:32 AM
Which begs the question: Did this kid just NOW discover he had a learning disability? Or was the NFL unable to verify the LD? Or is it that the kid just can't read?

It would seem from Chidi29's link that he was working on his disability through school.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 08:36 AM
It would seem from Chidi29's link that he was working on his disability through school.

Then it falls on HIM (and maybe on his agent as well) to take responsibility for his own disability and ask for the help that the NFL clearly offers.

Even if this kid does have a legitimate LD, that hardly changes the fact that the football factories are passing through kids because of their ability to put butts in seats and sell jerseys. It would simply make him the exception, rather than the rule. And NONE of this changes my original assertion that the kid can't read. In fact, the debate has simply produced more evidence that he can't, not less. Call it a learning disability if you like, but the fact remains that the kid can't read, and, by definition, illiterate. I can also pretty much guarantee that just about ANY other average kid that doesn't play a sport and couldn't read would be rejected from college, or at least remediated for a couple years. This kid got a pass because he could play the Hell out of football, pure and simple. The wonderlic did it's job by culling that fact out. Goodell did his usual, and drew attention to the wrong part of this story.

Chidi29
04-06-2012, 08:36 AM
Which begs the question: Did this kid just NOW discover he had a learning disability? Or was the NFL unable to verify the LD? Or is it that the kid just can't read?

I think I've made that answer clear about three times on this thread. Obviously, you're not reading anything I'm writing (no wonder we're going in circles).

But thanks for the link.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 08:43 AM
I think I've made that answer clear about three times on this thread. Obviously, you're not reading anything I'm writing (no wonder we're going in circles).

But thanks for the link.

No, you've actually obfuscated and diverted attention from the fact that it was, is, and will always be the latter. HE CAN'T READ.

It actually doesn't even matter why. The salient point is that he cannot read. This is like arguing over why a person with no legs can't walk, even though none of the arguments change the fact that he can't walk. The fact is, whether he's paralyzed, or bedridden, or a double amputee, he cannot walk. What you're trying to argue here is essentially saying "Well, he CAN walk, even though he's paralyzed".

No, he can't. He can't walk BECAUSE he's paralyzed....but he still can't walk.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 09:36 AM
The Japanese have words for truth, and the facade of truth. The "Tatemae" (the facade) in this case would be the fact that Claiborne has explosive and impressive football skills, and most likely be a big star CB in the NFL, make millions, and be a fan favorite.

The "Honne" is the uncomfortable truth that can't be discussed, which is that this kid has been fast-tracked through secondary and post-secondary education without being able to read, all because he can play football. I guess Tatemae would apply to the explanation that he can't read being based on a learning disability...which is still a bit more palatable than just calling an ace and ace and saying the kid is illiterate.

Chidi29
04-06-2012, 09:51 AM
No, you've actually obfuscated and diverted attention from the fact that it was, is, and will always be the latter. HE CAN'T READ.

It actually doesn't even matter why. The salient point is that he cannot read. This is like arguing over why a person with no legs can't walk, even though none of the arguments change the fact that he can't walk. The fact is, whether he's paralyzed, or bedridden, or a double amputee, he cannot walk. What you're trying to argue here is essentially saying "Well, he CAN walk, even though he's paralyzed".

No, he can't. He can't walk BECAUSE he's paralyzed....but he still can't walk.

But it's not because, by all accounts, the fact he doesn't want to learn. Or the fact that he isn't trying.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 10:16 AM
But it's not because, by all accounts, the fact he doesn't want to learn. Or the fact that he isn't trying.

That we will never know. That does not, in any way, affect the larger argument.

Also, if I took 4 years of German, then had to take a test in German to prove that I could speak the language before I went to Germany, I'd tell someone that I didn't actually know how to speak German before I took the test, or would refuse to take the test at all. That is only applicable, of course, based on the assumption that the ability to read is a prerequisite the NFL still deems important. Perhaps it's not.

In which case my whole argument crumbles....because if the schools don't care, and the colleges don't care, and the NFL doesn't care, and the fans don't care, then what difference does it make?

Chidi29
04-06-2012, 10:18 AM
That we will never know. That does not, in any way, affect the larger argument.

Also, if I took 4 years of German, then had to take a test in German to prove that I could speak the language before I went to Germany, I'd tell someone that I didn't actually know how to speak German before I took the test, or would refuse to take the test at all. That is only applicable, of course, based on the assumption that the ability to read is a prerequisite the NFL still deems important. Perhaps it's not.

We have reports that say he was hard worker who attempted to learn. There isn't any evidence he did not care and just skated on by because he was a football player.

While it doesn't change the larger argument, my point is that he should not become the posterchild for college football mills when his situation is different than a lot of others who are actually exploiting it.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 10:30 AM
Are any of those reports from any source that ISN'T self-serving or doesn't have an agenda?

Chidi29
04-06-2012, 10:31 AM
Are any of those reports from any source that ISN'T self-serving or doesn't have an agenda?

Yes (though I'm sure you'll call it self-serving anyway).

It's all from Greg Gabriel from NFP, the guy I've been linking the entire time.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 10:41 AM
Yes (though I'm sure you'll call it self-serving anyway).

It's all from Greg Gabriel from NFP, the guy I've been linking the entire time.

The guy who said "Everyone I've talked to"?

Maybe he talked to the kids mom? Or Les Miles? I mean, honestly, what are these people going to say? "No, he's a dummy who can't read and is lazy and we passed him through"?

Look, I know you're never going to change your position on this, and that is fine, but as inner-city illiteracy rates continue to rise, this is going to become much more of a problem in the future, not less. Just like in the FSU article where it stated that basically 2/3rd's of the basketball team had a "learning disability" when the rest of the population only has between a 5-10% rate, there will be excuses made, and things will be swept under the rug, and people will decide not to face the root causes and the deeper issues at stake here. That's hard. Watching your team filled with illiterate super stars win basketball and football games is easy...

suitanim
04-06-2012, 10:45 AM
Just to keep this discussion in context, check this out:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2012/03/awful_literacy_stats_make_the.html?utm_source=dlvr .it&utm_medium=twitter

There are five levels of national literacy standards, with Level 1 being the lowest. Those same standards have defined literacy as an ability to read for knowledge, write coherently and think critically about the written word.
Experts say that to function successfully in 21st-century life requires at least Level 3 literacy skills. Only persons at Level 3 or above are deemed capable of using that bus schedule or writing that simple letter.
According to the CWRU findings, 43.8 percent of Cuyahoga County residents 16 and older lack those skills.

In Cleveland, 65 percent of the population has Level 1 or Level 2 skills. In East Cleveland, it's 78.9 percent.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 10:47 AM
Do they all have learning disabilities?

I bet that all the kids who are great at basketball and football conveniently do...

ALLD
04-06-2012, 02:35 PM
A mind is a terrible thing.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c3c_1256950752

Chidi29
04-06-2012, 03:42 PM
The guy who said "Everyone I've talked to"?

Maybe he talked to the kids mom? Or Les Miles? I mean, honestly, what are these people going to say? "No, he's a dummy who can't read and is lazy and we passed him through"?

Look, I know you're never going to change your position on this, and that is fine, but as inner-city illiteracy rates continue to rise, this is going to become much more of a problem in the future, not less. Just like in the FSU article where it stated that basically 2/3rd's of the basketball team had a "learning disability" when the rest of the population only has between a 5-10% rate, there will be excuses made, and things will be swept under the rug, and people will decide not to face the root causes and the deeper issues at stake here. That's hard. Watching your team filled with illiterate super stars win basketball and football games is easy...

Gabriel has been in the business for 29 years and was the Director of College Scouting for nine. I'm going to trust he knows who to talk to and who is being reliable.

I'm not saying that the term "learning disability" is one that is being overused and exploited on the whole. I see your point. But let's not make Claiborne the posterchild for it because he may very well not fit into that category.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 04:31 PM
A mind is a terrible thing.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c3c_1256950752

A classic...I've referenced it many times, and no one ever gets it.

"My helmets....and my shouldem pads".

Good stuff!