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fansince'76
03-29-2012, 01:14 PM
By Ed Bouchette / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Palm Beach, FLA -- Ben Roethlisberger has a new coordinator, a new playbook and a new language to speak Steelers offense with his teammates.

At age 30, Roethlisberger must learn a completely new system for the first time in his nine-year career. How he takes to that task could signal the success or failure of Todd Haley in Pittsburgh.

Since his rookie season in 2004, Roethlisberger has had nothing but a succession of in-house coordinators -- Ken Whisenhunt and Bruce Arians -- each of whom maintained the offense of his predecessor with some modifications.

Haley will throw out Arians' playbook in favor of his own, with one concession: He will keep line coach Sean Kugler's blocking schemes.

Read more: On The Steelers: Offense will play by the (new) book (http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/on-the-steelers-offense-will-play-by-the-new-book-628653/)

suitanim
03-29-2012, 01:27 PM
Hmmmmm....I'm sure somehow it will become my fault simply for saying this, but weren't we told that they were keeping the old playbook and tweaking it?

What gives? Rooney fires Arians, then suddenly it was really Tomlin (even though Rooney REALLY just let his contract expire), now we keep the old playbook, but we are also throwing it out and starting fresh.

I wonder, will people even remember that we WERE going to keep the old playbook? Until we weren't?

ALLD
03-29-2012, 02:36 PM
Old Playbook-
Play #1: Hand the ball to the RB up the middle.
Play #2: Hand the ball to the RB around the edge.
Play #3: Everybody up front block so a WR can get down the field and Ben throws as far as he can.
Play #4: Punt.

suitanim
03-29-2012, 02:57 PM
Old Playbook-
Play #1: Hand the ball to the RB up the middle.
Play #2: Hand the ball to the RB around the edge.
Play #3: Everybody up front block so a WR can get down the field and Ben throws as far as he can.
Play #4: Punt.

That MIGHT make sense if those plays weren't already in every football playbook ever printed. You're confusing the plays with the play caller...although I'm sure you probably feel that Araisn doesn't know how to draw up and design plays either.

Regardless, my beef is with all this disinformation coming out of the FO. Ward, Arians, playbook...it's unusual.

Count Steeler
03-29-2012, 03:47 PM
Makes sense to me. New OC, experienced OC, why wouldn't he have his own play book.

Is Peyton going to keep Tebow's?

SteelerEmpire
03-29-2012, 05:37 PM
Haley: Had the # 1 rushing offense last year. Had the # 2 passing offense the year before. Sorry Ben, did't bring in Haley to be # 15 + in those areas again.

SteelGhost
03-29-2012, 06:38 PM
I think the change will make Ben and the whole offense better :thumbsup:

steelerdude15
03-29-2012, 07:26 PM
I have a feeling Haley will help with some of the issues on offense. Let's just hope it does.

steelreserve
03-29-2012, 08:03 PM
Palm Beach, FLA -- Ben Roethlisberger has a new coordinator, a new playbook and a new language to speak Steelers offense with his teammates.

"Hey, I know why the offense is out of sync. The playbook is written in German!"

SteelerFanInStl
03-29-2012, 09:26 PM
I think the change will make Ben and the whole offense better :thumbsup:

I think so too and I'm looking forward to it.

NCSteeler
03-29-2012, 11:52 PM
I believe it was posted way back then that his verbiage is similar enough, but no one ever said we were keeping the playbook.

suitanim
03-30-2012, 08:53 AM
We're doing it again here...revising history.

First off, it's important to note that the Steelers have had the same playbook for years, long before Arians arrived. In fact, Arians even pointed out that he would KEEP the old Cowher playbook and build on it. As far as I can determine, that playbook has been with the Steelers through 4 OC's now, including Whis (who has somehow managed to polish his legacy with Steelers fans who were disgruntled with him), so this is a MAJOR change. In fact, I believe the playbook dated back from Erhardt in 1992. So, let's be clear that this is a MONUMENTAL change for the Steelers. We're talking 20 years of offense.

I'd also like to point out that no less than Charlie Batch said emphatically that Arians designed HIS playbook based on Ben, and plays to his strengths. It is BEN'S offense, not Arians (rather was), so this will be a huge change in that regard as well.

I'm going to proceed carefully here, and use quotes and stuff because people will just attack me and call me an asshole if they percieve that I'M the one telling them they are wrong. So, here goes:

"He's been able to break down the playbook to exactly what Ben likes," Steelers backup quarterback Charlie Batch said of Arians. "This offense is Ben's offense ...
"People always are going to have flak because of the way the offense performs, but Ben is the first one to step up and say, 'This offense goes how I go. If I play well, we win. If I don't, we lose.' "


Read more: http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/12020/1204705-87-0.stm#ixzz1qbkGorDt

suitanim
03-30-2012, 08:54 AM
In fact, I found a WEALTH of stuff about this...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/apr/6/20070406-124126-6225r/?page=all

Former coach Bill Cowher changed coordinators five times during his 15 seasons, and each time the playbook was expanded rather than replaced.

“The playbook was six or seven languages hodge-podged together,” said Arians, the receivers coach the past three years under Ken Whisenhunt. “We’re going to streamline it into one language, and I hope to simplify it for our players.”

In addition to trimming the playbook, Arians plans to feature looks rarely seen before from the Steelers. Pittsburgh, long known as a conservative run-oriented offense, sometimes will use four wideouts on first-and-10.
“The butt part of it won’t change, but I love four wideouts,” Arians said. “I like a better running game out of four wideouts where we can utilize them on first and second down rather than just being in a shotgun and throwing it all the time [on third down].”
Some of Arians’ ideas come from Indianapolis, where he was Peyton Manning’s position coach during the standout quarterback’s first three seasons.
“When you think of the Colts, you think of a finesse offense, but when they came down the stretch in the [2006] playoffs, they had 100 to 150 yards rushing in every game,” Arians said. “It’s just a different style. You don’t have to line up with two tight ends and two backs to run the football. Rushing yards are rushing yards.”

suitanim
03-30-2012, 08:58 AM
Then I found some quotes form another board where many of the same people who post here now posted. Wow, some GREAT stuff from back in '07 when we promoted Arians to replace Whis:

"But I like what Arian's is saying. He's not putting down the old regime but instead he's looking to build on his own understanding, recognizing the talent he has, and putting it to good use. I'm excited to see what he does with the slimmed down model!!!"

(This from preacher)
"2. They will be able to make more/different adjustments. Go to Baltimore... they keeping sacking Ben after 3 seconds? Great. Throw 2 yard patterns out of 4 wide. When they back off into a zone, give it to willie. Line up 4 wide and run willie down the middle as a 5th receiver. etc. etc. So many more adjustments. Furthermore, we have BLOCKING RECEIVERS. So you can line up 5 wide, with Heath as a Wide out. Then bring him in motion, and have him go up the middle as a Full back with Willie behind him. Run Hines out of the slot, on a cross, to pick up the LB. This kind of thinking leaves SO MANY OPTIONS.

3. Lining up 4 and 5 wide takes pressure off of our O Line... cause either Ben has an open man to throw to, or the line only has 3 or 4 men to block.

4. JEROME BETTIS IS GONE. So let's scheme for the future... not the past."

(Another poster)

You hit the nail on the head! This maybe a big assumption but I too hope this means Heath will take on a bigger role in the passing game as the 4th receiver. Based on the Indy model, I think this is a gain for the running attack as well. If you don't remember take a look at SB XLI again; Dallas Clark was extremely effective blocking as the inside receiver. Similar to Clark, Heath (candy bars http://www.steelersfever.com/forums/images/smilies/wink02.gif) would pose a big problem for most LB's to cover. I think we'll see him exploit the soft areas in zone coverage and force defenses to keep honest and not throw 8 or nine in the box. Which means more space for fast Willie too.

I like it, I like it a lot! "

suitanim
03-30-2012, 09:05 AM
More...(this is fun!)

I like what Arians is saying!!!!! With the capabilities we have in the passing game PLEASE USE THEM!!!!! Mix up the play calling and simplify for the players, AWESOME!!!!

We can do more than just line up and RUN IT EVERY FIRST DOWN. Ben is the man and he can handle it!! I know he can. ROCK ON!!!!!

(Here's my favorite....and a constant reminder of why I have grumpy Steelerdude on Ignore)
"big difference between o'donnell and BR. i can't see BR ever getting the hang of seeing 4 to 5 WRs on the field. he has enough trouble with 2. "

(From Arians Feb 8, 2007)
"We have an elite quarterback -- or someone who can be elite -- and we need to get him to that level," said Bruce Arians, who was promoted to replace Ken Whisenhunt as offensive coordinator.


And my favorite post of all, considering that Whis had JUST moved on to Arizona...

"I like this move. We have just been too predictable the last few years. It will be interesting to see which 4 WRs line up."

fansince'76
03-30-2012, 10:33 AM
This last season was so poorly called the defenses new what we were going to do 90% of the time.

This was a post dated February 7, 2007 from the same thread (http://steelersfever.com/forums/showthread.php?p=215540#post215540) cited above. And here I thought Whiz was a such a playcalling genius. Déjà vu, anyone?

I still say six games. Tops. Fewer if the team stumbles out of the gate and gets off to a slow start.

suitanim
03-30-2012, 10:41 AM
Besides calling attention to the extremely faulty (and revisionist) memory of some, what really stands out about this is that we are scrapping a playbook that has evolved over TWENTY YEARS. Regardless of where you stand on that, it is a HUGE deal.

I'm certainly not saying it's not going to work. Haley is obviously a capable and successful coordinator. But there is going to be some transitioning time here...and if we struggle on offense at all this year, I'm quite sure it will be all the same people who HAVE FOR YEARS AND MULTIPLE OC'S who lead the charge to shitcan Haley, too...

Bluecoat96
03-30-2012, 11:11 AM
http://i.qkme.me/af.jpg

Bluecoat96
03-30-2012, 11:13 AM
http://theawesomer.com/photos/2011/08/081511_internet_argument_bingo_1.jpg

steelerdude15
03-30-2012, 11:15 AM
This was a post dated February 7, 2007 from the same thread (http://steelersfever.com/forums/showthread.php?p=215540#post215540) cited above. And here I thought Whiz was a such a playcalling genius. Déjà vu, anyone?

I still say six games. Tops. Fewer if the team stumbles out of the gate and gets off to a slow start.. Wait a second.... Are you saying the Steelers are only going to win six games this year? I hope I'm reading this wrong.

steelerdude15
03-30-2012, 11:16 AM
http://i.qkme.me/af.jpg :rofl2:

Bluecoat96
03-30-2012, 11:16 AM
. Wait a second.... Are you saying the Steelers are only going to win six games this year? I hope I'm reading this wrong.

I think he means 6 games until the masses start clamoring for Haley's head as OC.

vtw8lftr
03-30-2012, 11:20 AM
Besides calling attention to the extremely faulty (and revisionist) memory of some, what really stands out about this is that we are scrapping a playbook that has evolved over TWENTY YEARS. Regardless of where you stand on that, it is a HUGE deal.

I'm certainly not saying it's not going to work. Haley is obviously a capable and successful coordinator. But there is going to be some transitioning time here...and if we struggle on offense at all this year, I'm quite sure it will be all the same people who HAVE FOR YEARS AND MULTIPLE OC'S who lead the charge to shitcan Haley, too...

Maybe... just maybe... Tomlin AND Rooney felt that after using the same playbook for 20 years that some defenses were becoming adept at defending it... so now it is time to scrap it all and start over.

fansince'76
03-30-2012, 11:21 AM
I think he means 6 games until the masses start clamoring for Haley's head as OC.

Yup, yup.

steelerdude15
03-30-2012, 11:43 AM
Yup, yup.. Okay, just checking. :)

NCSteeler
03-30-2012, 11:45 AM
In fact, I found a WEALTH of stuff about this...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/apr/6/20070406-124126-6225r/?page=all

Former coach Bill Cowher changed coordinators five times during his 15 seasons, and each time the playbook was expanded rather than replaced.

“The playbook was six or seven languages hodge-podged together,” said Arians, the receivers coach the past three years under Ken Whisenhunt. “We’re going to streamline it into one language, and I hope to simplify it for our players.”

In addition to trimming the playbook, Arians plans to feature looks rarely seen before from the Steelers. Pittsburgh, long known as a conservative run-oriented offense, sometimes will use four wideouts on first-and-10.
“The butt part of it won’t change, but I love four wideouts,” Arians said. “I like a better running game out of four wideouts where we can utilize them on first and second down rather than just being in a shotgun and throwing it all the time [on third down].”
Some of Arians’ ideas come from Indianapolis, where he was Peyton Manning’s position coach during the standout quarterback’s first three seasons.
“When you think of the Colts, you think of a finesse offense, but when they came down the stretch in the [2006] playoffs, they had 100 to 150 yards rushing in every game,” Arians said. “It’s just a different style. You don’t have to line up with two tight ends and two backs to run the football. Rushing yards are rushing yards.”


So which is it "I believe the playbook dated back from Erhardt in 1992" or “The playbook was six or seven languages hodge-podged together,” said Arians, the receivers coach the past three years under Ken Whisenhunt. “We’re going to streamline it into one language, and I hope to simplify it for our players.”

Steeldude
03-30-2012, 07:04 PM
I think he means 6 games until the masses start clamoring for Haley's head as OC.


With how angry the Arians lovers get it might be sooner

86WARD
03-30-2012, 07:56 PM
Makes sense to me. New OC, experienced OC, why wouldn't he have his own play book.

Is Peyton going to keep Tebow's?

Never makes sense. Why wouldn't one person learn to change his language opposed to 26 people trying to learn a new language and apply it to his playbook?

Count Steeler
03-30-2012, 08:01 PM
Never makes sense. Why wouldn't one person learn to change his language opposed to 26 people trying to learn a new language and apply it to his playbook?

He's the boss. He has to teach and get everyone on his page. It's his ass on the line.

Hindes204
03-30-2012, 08:08 PM
I have mixed feelings, but I'd like to give Haley the benefit of the doubt, he is a very good coordinator and I'm excited to see what he brings to the table

Count Steeler
03-30-2012, 08:09 PM
If the Steelers wanted status quo, they would have given Arians another contract. Tomlin did not bring in Haley for status quo.

sgtrobo
03-30-2012, 08:30 PM
my beef is with all this disinformation coming out of the FO. Ward, Arians, playbook...it's unusual.

Do you feel that the front office owes you an accurate, timely description of their plans for individual coaching staff members?
Do you feel that the front office owes you an explanation about what we will do with our playbook?

If the answer to either of those is "yes", I'd like to ask "why"?

pepsyman1
03-31-2012, 02:17 AM
The "history" of all this doesn't matter anymore. Our offense was no longer effective on any type of consistent basis, regardless of how much talent we have on the field. We need change, we've got change period. Stop worrying about what was said and what so and so's opinion of the last coordinator's Playbook because it DOESN'T MATTER. We have a new OC with a new Playbook, let's hope Ben embraces it and this offense starts reaching its potential.

GBMelBlount
03-31-2012, 07:37 AM
I am not going to use one example with Bubby Brister to blast this decision yet.

Is there significant evidence that bringing in an outside OC who installs a brand new play book usually has bad results?

TomlinSteelTribe
03-31-2012, 04:48 PM
I'm excited to see what Haley brings to the table. His track record shows he adapts to his personnel as good as anyone. Arians probably took more heat than he deserved, but the fact remains: the offense was underachieving with him at the helm. I don't think that can really be disputed. As Steeler fans we've been dreaming for a few years now about fielding a high-powered offense. Hasn't happened yet and that's partly on Arians. Redzone efficiency was paltry. Until we get a legit OL (work in progress) again, we're going to have to be very creative in finding ways to get into the endzone consistently.

Regarding the claim that the playbook hasn't changed much since Ron Erhardt (RIP), I have serious doubts.

suitanim
04-01-2012, 09:10 AM
This is ALL about how the same fans who hated Erhardt and hated Gailey and hated Whisenhunt and hated Arians will also hate Haley. Many Steelers fans are spoiled petulant children, and many of them, even if they knew 10,000 times as much as they THOUGHT they knew about football, would still only know 1/10th as they ACTUALLY DO.

Game 4 for me. 76 has 6. There MAY be rumblings, though, as early as preseason...Trying to make this about me missing Arians is diversionary bullshit. I'm done with that. This is about hypocrisy and revisionist history...

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-01-2012, 10:07 AM
I actually liked Erhardt, Gailey, Whiz, but not so much Sherman or Arians. I'm optimistic about Haley and looking forward to his offense.

suitanim
04-03-2012, 10:55 AM
I've been reading a lot of old posts at other boards. It's great fun to see the things people used to say, compared to what they are saying now. One that I had to chuckle at was all the people clamoring for us to run the ball a lot more, AND to run the no-huddle for most of, or all of, the games. BA had this to say about the no-huddle:
We don't try to throw the ball. It's just, in some cases, Ben likes to run the no-huddle and, when you run the no-huddle, you add probably about 10-15 more attempts to your passing plays. So, when he throws 20-25 times, add 10-15 more attempts by doing the spread huddle.

Another favorite was seeing a prominent poster compare Mike Wallace to.....................Nate Washington?

And I actually saw a post form 2010 claiming that.................Arians ran too much, and that he needed to call more...........................bubble screens!

As for Whisenhunt, there was an old post bashing him because he ran a reverse on the goalline...and it didn't work. I can't even begin to imagine what the hater crowd would have said if BA had attempted that.

Comedy Gold, Jerry!

X-Terminator
04-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Game 4 for me. 76 has 6. There MAY be rumblings, though, as early as preseason...

I say after the first incompletion in the first game of the season. He'll get the benefit of the doubt in the preseason.

O'Malley
04-06-2012, 01:10 PM
I don't see what the big deal is... Five years of the same OC and it's time to move on to a new one.. I have nothing but possitive thoughts about Haley, think he will fit in just fine, and bring the offense to the next level.

suitanim
04-06-2012, 04:35 PM
I don't see what the big deal is... Five years of the same OC and it's time to move on to a new one.. I have nothing but possitive thoughts about Haley, think he will fit in just fine, and bring the offense to the next level.

No big deal?

For better or for worse, the Steelers are throwing a 20 year old playbook in the trashcan! It's a HUUUUUUUGE deal.

GBMelBlount
04-06-2012, 04:42 PM
Ben only lost 1 regular season game his rookie year when he didn't even know what a play book was.

Psycho Ward 86
04-06-2012, 06:01 PM
No big deal?

For better or for worse, the Steelers are throwing a 20 year old playbook in the trashcan! It's a HUUUUUUUGE deal.

time to update, lol?

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-06-2012, 06:54 PM
time to update, lol?
I think the sky is falling cat needs to be made aware that a 20 year old playbook has been thrown in the trashcan. Sound the alarm bells, get the pitchforks ready, the Steelers are daring to try and improve their offense from its #24 scoring status.

Oh, the horror!

Psycho Ward 86
04-06-2012, 07:27 PM
I think the sky is falling cat needs to be made aware that a 20 year old playbook has been thrown in the trashcan. Sound the alarm bells, get the pitchforks ready, the Steelers are daring to try and improve their offense from its #24 scoring status.

Oh, the horror!

:lol:

suitanim
04-07-2012, 08:36 AM
Well, all sarcasm and ignorance aside, when you have playbook that survives two head coaches and, what? FIVE offensive coordinators, the day that's gone, LOVE IT OR HATE IT, it's dismissive and wrong-headed to just cavalierly toss it off as no big deal.

If you understand the fact that it was the offensive playbook for a team that had as much success as any franchise for two decades, that resulted in 14 playoffs appearances, 10 division championships, four conference championships, and two super bowl titles, you might be slightly maudlin about it's demise for a moment or two, and give the playbook the proper respect it's due.

Or not...whatever....Hey, look! Jersey Shore is on!

ShutDown24
04-07-2012, 09:56 AM
Hey, look! Jersey Shore is on!

I bet Ronnie could be a decent tailback

Bluecoat96
04-07-2012, 10:04 AM
I think the sky is falling cat needs to be made aware that a 20 year old playbook has been thrown in the trashcan. Sound the alarm bells, get the pitchforks ready, the Steelers are daring to try and improve their offense from its #24 scoring status.

Oh, the horror!

Here you go.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/sky-is-falling.jpg

You're welcome. lol

suitanim
04-07-2012, 01:36 PM
The sky isn't falling...and change isn't bad. But have little respect.

Psycho Ward 86
04-07-2012, 02:42 PM
The sky isn't falling...and change isn't bad. But have little respect.

respect? you can start by not accusing supporters of Haley of turning their backs against him as soon as he messes up. you could start by not viewing our offense with an inferiority complex and believing the 22nd ranked scoring team is all we are capable of. you could start by giving haley a chance.

you backed off from your typical "rant mode" on this subject quickly. i hope its because you get it now. look at arians', resume, look at haley's, there's legitimate production there. Haley has left every team he's been with with at least a probowl receiver or probowl RB or probowl QB under his watchful eye or a combination or 2 or 3 of those (Keyshawn Johnson, Marty Booker, T.O, Tony Romo, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Kurt Warner, Edgerrin James, Matt Cassel, Jamaal Charles, Dwayne Bowe). Albeit, some of these players were talented before Haley got there, but look closer and you'll see that most of these guys had either some of their best years under Haley, had a great comeback year, or just flat out killed it after being drafted/signed under Haley. A lot of these guys fizzled out as well once Haley left the building. The production from his offenses as a whole speak for themselves.

tube517
04-07-2012, 02:55 PM
I actually liked Erhardt, Gailey, Whiz, but not so much Sherman or Arians. I'm optimistic about Haley and looking forward to his offense.

No love/hate/pitchfork for Mularkey?

O'Malley
04-07-2012, 03:44 PM
respect? you can start by not accusing supporters of Haley of turning their backs against him as soon as he messes up. you could start by not viewing our offense with an inferiority complex and believing the 22nd ranked scoring team is all we are capable of. you could start by giving haley a chance.

you backed off from your typical "rant mode" on this subject quickly. i hope its because you get it now. look at arians', resume, look at haley's, there's legitimate production there. Haley has left every team he's been with with at least a probowl receiver or probowl RB or probowl QB under his watchful eye or a combination or 2 or 3 of those (Keyshawn Johnson, Marty Booker, T.O, Tony Romo, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Kurt Warner, Edgerrin James, Matt Cassel, Jamaal Charles, Dwayne Bowe). Albeit, some of these players were talented before Haley got there, but look closer and you'll see that most of these guys had either some of their best years under Haley, had a great comeback year, or just flat out killed it after being drafted/signed under Haley. A lot of these guys fizzled out as well once Haley left the building. The production from his offenses as a whole speak for themselves.

BOOM^

fansince'76
04-07-2012, 06:27 PM
you can start by not accusing supporters of Haley of turning their backs against him as soon as he messes up.

Sorry, but many will - just as surely as the sun will rise in the East tomorrow. Seen it happen too many times in the past to believe that Haley will be somehow immune to unfair, inaccurate and over-the-top criticism. This is not meant as an indictment of anyone in particular, but it WILL happen.

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-07-2012, 08:15 PM
I bet Ronnie could be a decent tailback
Do you think Snookie could play FB if Haley decides to use one??


Here you go.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/sky-is-falling.jpg

You're welcome. lol

I love that cat. Thanks Man!! :rofl2:

It still needs to let me know how so called "Cowherball" and the Arians-nation playbooks are the same as the past 20 years. I thought one was ground 'n pound and the other was chuck n' duck.???

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-07-2012, 08:22 PM
No love/hate/pitchfork for Mularkey?

Mularkey I didnt mind too much either. I think at times he used too many gadget plays per game. At first it was a surprising change of pace from the usual physical Steelers offense and it was great!! Then, I am sure teams started preparing for more of them and he went to the well too often when he probably didnt need to.

suitanim
04-08-2012, 06:37 AM
respect? you can start by not accusing supporters of Haley of turning their backs against him as soon as he messes up. you could start by not viewing our offense with an inferiority complex and believing the 22nd ranked scoring team is all we are capable of. you could start by giving haley a chance.

you backed off from your typical "rant mode" on this subject quickly. i hope its because you get it now. look at arians', resume, look at haley's, there's legitimate production there. Haley has left every team he's been with with at least a probowl receiver or probowl RB or probowl QB under his watchful eye or a combination or 2 or 3 of those (Keyshawn Johnson, Marty Booker, T.O, Tony Romo, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Kurt Warner, Edgerrin James, Matt Cassel, Jamaal Charles, Dwayne Bowe). Albeit, some of these players were talented before Haley got there, but look closer and you'll see that most of these guys had either some of their best years under Haley, had a great comeback year, or just flat out killed it after being drafted/signed under Haley. A lot of these guys fizzled out as well once Haley left the building. The production from his offenses as a whole speak for themselves.


Absolutely NOTHING in this post addresses the playbook. And you are WAY off base accusing ME of bashing Haley. I'll support the new OC, and probably exponentially more than 95% of the other petulant babies who think we should win every game 100-0 and score on every play. You can't have it both ways. You're trying to call me a malcontent and a lemming at the same time...IF I would have started bashing Haley, you'd have a point. But I've pretty consistently stated that I expect to be one of about 10 people who support him after the other people start trashing him the first time we run on 3rd and 6 and fail.

Look, this isn't even a prediction, it's already a fact based on 30 years of observed behavior. MOST Steelers fans will hate Haley within a very short time. Why? Because Steelers fans hate their offensive coordinators. They like OTHER OC's, even ones who pass too much or run too much or both (and I only wish that was a contradiction, but, sadly, it's not...there is a poster in this very thread who once said we need to run the ball a lot more AND run the no-huddle a lot more even though the no-huddle results in about 40% MORE passing). The grass always has been, is, and always will be greener on the other side of the fence.

Anyway, I was just mourning the passing of an old friend, the 20 year-old ridiculously successful STEELERS offensive playbook.

Not Arians playbook.
Not Erhardt's playbook.
Not Mike Tomlin's playbook.
Not Bill Cowher's playbook.

The STEELERS offensive playbook for the last twenty years.

I look forward to another twenty years of success. But the bar has been set pretty damn high.

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-08-2012, 08:49 AM
This is all about your love of Arians and sour grapes over his "retirement". I don't see any other posters here playing Nostradamus in predicting the failure of the new offense.

Nobody here has ever played the drama queen role :drama: in the mourning the loss of physical Steelers Offensive football.

ShutDown24
04-08-2012, 09:14 AM
This is ridiculous. Even if the "playbook" was the "same" one used for the last "twenty years" that doesn't mean it was exactly the same under Arians as it had been under Mularkey or whoever else - it changed. Things were added and things were removed dependent on the play caller. So much drama over something so insignificant.

Count Steeler
04-08-2012, 10:03 AM
By whatever measure you would like to use, our offense for the last 20 years has been "adequate" at best. And had it not been coupled with one of the best defenses every year, we would be mediocre at best.

However, we are the Steelers. Defense IS our identity. Offense is the necessary evil to allow our defense to rest. If the offense happens to score 21 points, we are very likely to win. Of course the defense chips in on scoring once in a while as well.

Perhaps what I am missing is that the playbook is absolutely stellar, but our players and their lack of execution, makes the playbook look merely "adequate".

Pristas
04-08-2012, 10:46 AM
By whatever measure you would like to use, our offense for the last 20 years has been "adequate" at best. And had it not been coupled with one of the best defenses every year, we would be mediocre at best.

However, we are the Steelers. Defense IS our identity. Offense is the necessary evil to allow our defense to rest. If the offense happens to score 21 points, we are very likely to win. Of course the defense chips in on scoring once in a while as well.

Perhaps what I am missing is that the playbook is absolutely stellar, but our players and their lack of execution, makes the playbook look merely "adequate".


Quoted for truth. Even with all of the talent we have on offense, we are still a defense first team. I'd love to see the offense reach up to the heights the defense plays every year...

Psycho Ward 86
04-08-2012, 11:27 AM
This is ridiculous. Even if the "playbook" was the "same" one used for the last "twenty years" that doesn't mean it was exactly the same under Arians as it had been under Mularkey or whoever else - it changed. Things were added and things were removed dependent on the play caller. So much drama over something so insignificant.

Exactly. Jesus christ suitanim, you don't know what goes on in there. You talk about this damn playbook like you've actually had it in your hands and studied it before. We are all too oblivious to say much on the matter. Everybody here.

O'Malley
04-08-2012, 11:43 AM
Exactly. Jesus christ suitanim, you don't know what goes on in there. You talk about this damn playbook like you've actually had it in your hands and studied it before. We are all too oblivious to say much on the matter. Everybody here.

The thing I don't get, maybe it's just me.. If you have the same playbook for twenty years, how do you ever move the ball?.. Let alone score? You'd think that teams would be able to figure it out after twenty years of the same thing... For this simple fact I can't believe the Steelers had the same playbook for twenty years... Let alone the last 10 years.. IMO the playbook has done a complete 180 since Ben came in.. But I have not seen the playbook personally so I have no idea one way or the other.

ShutDown24
04-08-2012, 12:05 PM
The thing I don't get, maybe it's just me.. If you have the same playbook for twenty years, how do you ever move the ball?.. Let alone score? You'd think that teams would be able to figure it out after twenty years of the same thing... For this simple fact I can't believe the Steelers had the same playbook for twenty years... Let alone the last 10 years.. IMO the playbook has done a complete 180 since Ben came in.. But I have not seen the playbook personally so I have no idea one way or the other.

Well, you see, in 1992 Ron Erhardt had a dream in which he saw the future. So he was able to implement 5 wide packages, the no-huddle, that play where Ben punts the ball... All kinds of things specific to Steelers personnel throughout the last twenty seasons. It's really quite impressive. It has allowed for the team to keep the exact same playbook since without making any changes whatsoever. The offensive coaching staff is going to be lost without it.

O'Malley
04-08-2012, 12:31 PM
Well, you see, in 1992 Ron Erhardt had a dream in which he saw the future. So he was able to implement 5 wide packages, the no-huddle, that play where Ben punts the ball... All kinds of things specific to Steelers personnel throughout the last twenty seasons. It's really quite impressive. It has allowed for the team to keep the exact same playbook since without making any changes whatsoever. The offensive coaching staff is going to be lost without it.

I see.. This sounds like it's going to be terrible for the new OC and the offense as a whole.. I wonder if they'll be able to get a first down this season... Without the playbook blueprinting the every move of the offense I think they will be screwed.. Haley must have used a version of the playbook in Arizona with coach Wiz... That must be why he was so effective there.. Then taken it to KC, to turn them around from the laughing stock to a playoff caliber team.. It all make sense now..

suitanim
04-08-2012, 05:59 PM
I usually get a good laugh at some of the junk you guys post, but this thread is a DEFINITE keeper!

Thanks!

The playbook is a culmination of several offensive coordinators and two head coaches. It evolved. If it wasn't a big deal to change it, they would have....perhaps many times. If it wasn't a big deal to get rid of, they wouldn't have mentioned it. MY R.I.P. had NOTHING to do with Arains. He's gone. Unfortunately, the ignorant masses of idiot fans who actually THINK they know 1/1000th of what ANY NFL offensive coordinator knows, even the worst OC ever, remain in full force. The proof is in this thread. My support of OC's is based not on any great knowledge of my own, rather the realization that to reach the level of NFL OC one needs to know a LOT about offenses. By a LOT, I mean more than everyone in this thread combined to the power of 10.

That's why it's no great prediction to know that all you same offensive genius guru's will be bashing Haley in a few months. It has nothing to do with me, or Arians, or Haley, but everything to do with your own arrogance and ignorance. Ignorance at not knowing that you don't know, and arrogance because you actually don't know that you don't know what you think you know.

I find it all absurd.......but hilarious.

Count Steeler
04-08-2012, 06:07 PM
I usually get a good laugh at some of the junk you guys post, but this thread is a DEFINITE keeper!

Thanks!

We aim to please. You are most welcome.

X-Terminator
04-08-2012, 07:31 PM
The thing I don't get, maybe it's just me.. If you have the same playbook for twenty years, how do you ever move the ball?.. Let alone score? You'd think that teams would be able to figure it out after twenty years of the same thing... For this simple fact I can't believe the Steelers had the same playbook for twenty years... Let alone the last 10 years.. IMO the playbook has done a complete 180 since Ben came in.. But I have not seen the playbook personally so I have no idea one way or the other.

When Arians took over, he said he was going to "streamline" the playbook because it had become so cumbersome with multiple coordinators adding to it. So in a way, yes, they have been using the same playbook for the past X number of years...it's just that the coordinators have put their own stamp on it. Haley is taking that and throwing it all out in favor of his own playbook, which is his right, but I'm not expecting the New Orleans Saints offense right out of the gate because of the learning curve that comes with implementing a new offensive scheme. And other Steelers fans shouldn't either, but I suspect that they will.

suitanim
04-09-2012, 05:43 AM
When Arians took over, he said he was going to "streamline" the playbook because it had become so cumbersome with multiple coordinators adding to it. So in a way, yes, they have been using the same playbook for the past X number of years...it's just that the coordinators have put their own stamp on it. Haley is taking that and throwing it all out in favor of his own playbook, which is his right, but I'm not expecting the New Orleans Saints offense right out of the gate because of the learning curve that comes with implementing a new offensive scheme. And other Steelers fans shouldn't either, but I suspect that they will.

It was almost certainly time for a change...I was merely stating that the last playbook had a good run. Of course the Steelers rely on defense, but most teams are ether very good defensively, and average (or worse) offensively, or vice-versa. This playbook got a very average offense with a couple good lineman and only a few quality skill players to a Super Bowl in 95, and actually managed to win with Kordell Steward at QB. It also got us to 3 Super Bowls in the last 7 years with the 3 worst offensive lines in Super Bowl history. It also was good enough to get a couple OC's HC gigs.

This will always, for me, come down to fan arrogance. It's one thing to second guess, say, a baseball manager pulling a pitcher who has pitched 8 innings, only giving up 2 hits, 1 walk, and striking out 10 with a three run lead and the closer BLOWING the 3 run lead (which is exactly what Manny Acta did on the Indians opening day fiasco). THAT is a mistake, and was bad management. But it was only one decision. Second guessing an OC is ridiculous because the equation is so complicated. On any given play, there are HUNDREDS of variables. These guys spend their whole lives living and breathing the game. They spend a hundred hours a week preparing gameplans, breaking down film, etc, etc. Then the casual fan comes along, sees that a play or a series of plays doesn't work, and starts calling the OC an idiot.

Anyway, it's always been that way in Pittsburgh (and not just here), and it always will be that way. Bad mouthing the messenger just because the truth hurts only adds a comic element to an sad and sorry situation.

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-09-2012, 08:57 AM
"It's been fun. He is very flexible and very sound in his approach," Tomlin said of Haley....."We've had awesome discussions in terms of building it, but as I always say, and it will be the case, we are going to build our attack around the strengths of our men. Ben Roethlisberger is a talented guy. We have talented receivers. We have an interesting group of running back prospects. We are putting together an offensive line.


From the above comments, it appears that Tomlin thinks of the change as a positive thing. I am not sure where all the naysayers and doomsday prognosticators find all their material for fear mongering in this new playbook. I cant wait to see what good things will come from this step forward.

suitanim
04-09-2012, 09:39 AM
"It's been fun. He is very flexible and very sound in his approach," Tomlin said of Haley....."We've had awesome discussions in terms of building it, but as I always say, and it will be the case, we are going to build our attack around the strengths of our men. Ben Roethlisberger is a talented guy. We have talented receivers. We have an interesting group of running back prospects. We are putting together an offensive line.


From the above comments, it appears that Tomlin thinks of the change as a positive thing. I am not sure where all the naysayers and doomsday prognosticators find all their material for fear mongering in this new playbook. I cant wait to see what good things will come from this step forward.

How can you characterize me as a naysayer or doomsday prognosticator? I'm simply predicting that the same know-it-all arm chair Monday morning OC's who delusionally think that they know better than an NFL OC how to actually run an NFL offense.

Now I WILL predict that the same jackasses who always bash the OC will bash this OC. That's based on 30 years of experience across more than half a dozen OC's. If you're going to stay in that club for this OC, then you'll be addressed as such at that time. But my naysaying is pointed at the ignorant fans who think they know better, not at the OC himself. I think Haley will do fine. We will not, and I repeat, we will NOT be a top 5 scoring offense, because we aren't built to be. We don't have the OL for it, and I'm making an educated guess that while our TOP will be solid, we won't be a quick-strike, pile-up-the-points offense because we will run the ball slightly more than we have.

I don't understand the fascination with people deliberating mischaracterizing what it is I'm posting about.

ShutDown24
04-09-2012, 09:41 AM
"The same playbook." LOL.

X-Terminator
04-09-2012, 10:43 AM
"It's been fun. He is very flexible and very sound in his approach," Tomlin said of Haley....."We've had awesome discussions in terms of building it, but as I always say, and it will be the case, we are going to build our attack around the strengths of our men. Ben Roethlisberger is a talented guy. We have talented receivers. We have an interesting group of running back prospects. We are putting together an offensive line.


From the above comments, it appears that Tomlin thinks of the change as a positive thing. I am not sure where all the naysayers and doomsday prognosticators find all their material for fear mongering in this new playbook. I cant wait to see what good things will come from this step forward.

It's not the coordinator or Tomlin. It's the fact that Steelers fans are never happy with the OC no matter who it is. The late Ron Erhardt was the only one I can remember who wasn't second-guessed constantly by the armchair OCs in our fan base, whether it was deserved or not. I personally believe Haley will do a fine job and like that he will use all of the weapons at his disposal. The guy has a track record of success...I just worry about how the fans will react the first time he runs a play they don't like.


"The same playbook." LOL.

You might want to clarify who this was directed at, because I think I made a pretty fair point about the "old" playbook.

suitanim
04-09-2012, 10:46 AM
And to clarify before anyone starts bellyaching, my comment about being a jackass was a general one, directed towards people who hate ALL of the Steelers OC's. Like asking little kids "who did it?", no one will directly lay claim to such a thing, so I'm off the hook for it being a personal attack, but such people not only exist, they are prevalent.

O'Malley
04-09-2012, 02:04 PM
And to clarify before anyone starts bellyaching, my comment about being a jackass was a general one, directed towards people who hate ALL of the Steelers OC's. Like asking little kids "who did it?", no one will directly lay claim to such a thing, so I'm off the hook for it being a personal attack, but such people not only exist, they are prevalent.

Are you calling me a jackass? Damn it I'm not a jackass...:stirthepot: Just kidding.. Some take too much out of nothing, just making light of the situation..:drink: I do believe however the offense under Haley has a good shot at being in the top 5 if not top 10 in scoring... The guy is not built to be a HC he is an OC, and a great one at that... IMO he will get the most bang for the buck out of the offense... Call it blind faith, or possitive thinking, but I believe this is a change for the best.

Bluecoat96
04-09-2012, 02:23 PM
Are you calling me a jackass? Damn it I'm not a jackass...:stirthepot: Just kidding.. Some take too much out of nothing, just making light of the situation..:drink: I do believe however the offense under Haley has a good shot at being in the top 5 if not top 10 in scoring... The guy is not built to be a HC he is an OC, and a great one at that... IMO he will get the most bang for the buck out of the offense... Call it blind faith, or possitive thinking, but I believe this is a change for the best.

I'm definitely the eternal optimist as well. I think of Wade Phillips as an example. The job he did in Houston after his stint of mediocrity in Dallas was awesome.

suitanim
04-09-2012, 04:09 PM
Are you calling me a jackass? Damn it I'm not a jackass...:stirthepot: Just kidding.. Some take too much out of nothing, just making light of the situation..:drink: I do believe however the offense under Haley has a good shot at being in the top 5 if not top 10 in scoring... The guy is not built to be a HC he is an OC, and a great one at that... IMO he will get the most bang for the buck out of the offense... Call it blind faith, or possitive thinking, but I believe this is a change for the best.

We'll never be top 5 without a dedication to the offensive line. We are a defensive team first. And that's the way it should be. That's why we were one win away from homefield advantage throughout the playoffs last year despite have the worst offensive line in the NFL.

O'Malley
04-09-2012, 04:53 PM
We'll never be top 5 without a dedication to the offensive line. We are a defensive team first. And that's the way it should be. That's why we were one win away from homefield advantage throughout the playoffs last year despite have the worst offensive line in the NFL.

I agree the Steelers are a defense first team, I wouldn't have it any other way!!!!! But IMO the weapons they have on offense can produce a top 5 scoring team!!!! The weapons just have to be used properly(plus there are some really good prospects for O-Line in the draft this year!)... IMO Haley is just the guy to do it.. He got the most out of his offense in Arizona, and KC when they were healthy..

suitanim
04-09-2012, 05:38 PM
I agree the Steelers are a defense first team, I wouldn't have it any other way!!!!! But IMO the weapons they have on offense can produce a top 5 scoring team!!!! The weapons just have to be used properly(plus there are some really good prospects for O-Line in the draft this year!)... IMO Haley is just the guy to do it.. He got the most out of his offense in Arizona, and KC when they were healthy..

I'm optimistic, too...always am. But I'm also a pragmatic realist. We don't even need to be in the top 15 in scoring if we can maintain defensive dominance.

O'Malley
04-09-2012, 05:51 PM
I'm optimistic, too...always am. But I'm also a pragmatic realist. We don't even need to be in the top 15 in scoring if we can maintain defensive dominance.

Would be nice to see the offense put games away though!! I believe they will improve this year in the redzone... Putting games out of reach by scoring in the redzone.. The defense should be as dominant as always.. If they can get it done on both sides of the ball the sky is the limit!

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-09-2012, 06:06 PM
How can you characterize me as a naysayer or doomsday prognosticator? I'm simply predicting that the same know-it-all arm chair Monday morning OC's who delusionally think that they know better than an NFL OC how to actually run an NFL offense.

Now I WILL predict that the same jackasses who always bash the OC will bash this OC. That's based on 30 years of experience across more than half a dozen OC's. If you're going to stay in that club for this OC, then you'll be addressed as such at that time. But my naysaying is pointed at the ignorant fans who think they know better, not at the OC himself. I think Haley will do fine. We will not, and I repeat, we will NOT be a top 5 scoring offense, because we aren't built to be. We don't have the OL for it, and I'm making an educated guess that while our TOP will be solid, we won't be a quick-strike, pile-up-the-points offense because we will run the ball slightly more than we have.

I don't understand the fascination with people deliberating mischaracterizing what it is I'm posting about.

I was really referencing the media that comes up with the crap about this being such a drastic change and that Ben may not buy into this offense........but if you want to make this all about you, then go ahead. Par for the course.

GBMelBlount
04-09-2012, 06:29 PM
I'm optimistic, too...always am. But I'm also a pragmatic realist. We don't even need to be in the top 15 in scoring if we can maintain defensive dominance.

Sooooo.....if our defense is dominant again you will be satisfied if we are around 20th in scoring?

SteelGhost
04-09-2012, 07:36 PM
By whatever measure you would like to use, our offense for the last 20 years has been "adequate" at best. And had it not been coupled with one of the best defenses every year, we would be mediocre at best.

However, we are the Steelers. Defense IS our identity. Offense is the necessary evil to allow our defense to rest. If the offense happens to score 21 points, we are very likely to win. Of course the defense chips in on scoring once in a while as well.

Perhaps what I am missing is that the playbook is absolutely stellar, but our players and their lack of execution, makes the playbook look merely "adequate".

Ding ding ding.

suitanim
04-10-2012, 07:43 AM
Sooooo.....if our defense is dominant again you will be satisfied if we are around 20th in scoring?

Absolutely. We were one blown defensive stand away from homefield throughout. We outscored teams about 25-13 at home last year. We were a completely different team at home then we were on the road. I don't really care about the stats, I care about winning. I really don't care if we win every game 9-6, as long as we win every game.

And you have to remember who you're talking to here. I will be the last person to jump on the OC hating bandwagon, so Haley is not likely to get ANY criticism from me at all. Unless, of course, we DO start running the ball 75% of the time and we start LOSING games 9-3.