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View Full Version : Rocky Bleier's thoughts on the playoff loss



stillers4me
01-14-2012, 08:17 AM
I have been pretty quiet most of this season on the play of the Steelers, but now I have to add my two cents, to how the season ended.

I know how difficult it is to play this game when you are hurting and I know how difficult it is when you are not at your optimum strength, but what would’ve, could’ve, should’ve, happened just didn’t get done.

It has been said that age and wisdom will be beat youth and enthusiasm all the time. That was proven wrong Sunday.............

Read more: http://www.rockybleier.com/commerce/mywords/mywords.asp?reqdate=1%2F13%2F2012&nsid=1

GBMelBlount
01-14-2012, 11:27 AM
Steelers played that first half with a sense of entitlement without the lack of conviction in getting the job done

They played that way most of the season in my opinion and won 12 games largely due to superior talent.


Again what could’ve, should’ve happen, as we have come to expect in games like this, didn’t.

We saw the bandages unravel, only to reveal how far the cancer had spread.

Sometimes an early death is the most humane remedy...they shoot horses, don’t they!

The cancer was apathy.

This team needs a serious kick in the ass next year starting with training camp...as that sets the tone for the entire season.

The lack of physical and mental preparation this year was embarrassingly evident starting with the abusive treatment we suffered at the hands of the ravens in the first game of the season.

st33lersguy
01-14-2012, 11:46 AM
They played that way most of the season in my opinion and won 12 games largely due to superior talent.



The cancer was apathy.

This team needs a serious kick in the ass next year starting with training camp...as that sets the tone for the entire season.

The lack of physical and mental preparation this year was embarrassingly evident starting with the abusive treatment we suffered at the hands of the ravens in the first game of the season.

I would agree with you that apathy was a problem. Other than the New England game, they did not seem to be playing with a lot of fire. They just went through the motions

Devilsdancefloor
01-14-2012, 12:18 PM
i am just wonder how much of the new CBA and limiting practices in pads hurt a team like the steelers, but i agree with him 100%

Shoes
01-14-2012, 12:33 PM
I would agree with you that apathy was a problem. Other than the New England game, they did not seem to be playing with a lot of fire. They just went through the motions

Which is strange because Mike T is such a great motivator.....there is something missing. Maybe a lack of personal discipline and accountability on the players/coaches? I don't like the cheats a bit but do admire their discipline on the field even in a loss. I do feel our player/coaches have made themselves to "equal" and too "friendly" if you will. This is why I loved Chuck Noll...he wasn't a fire spitting dragon nor an on going mouth of metaphors. The players had a great respect and healthy fear of him. I do not think this atmosphere exist today. I like Mike T and really hope he will make the needed changes for the long haul.

smokin3000gt
01-14-2012, 01:32 PM
i am just wonder how much of the new CBA and limiting practices in pads hurt a team like the steelers, but i agree with him 100%

Everyone still playing in the post season had the same new CBA and limited practices as we did. Like it was said, it seemed like the Steelers went through the motions for a lot of the games. I hope the loss hit the team hit the team especially hard because next year they need to come out and turn it on for the entire game, not the last half of the 4th qtr. They need to hate losing as much as b-hole chin hates losing.

katmandu
01-14-2012, 03:21 PM
Which is strange because Mike T is such a great motivator.....there is something missing.

Maybe a lack of personal discipline and accountability on the players/coaches? The Offense lack of productivity is an easy one. Way too much plug and play and swapping around positions led to a lack of consistency and adhesiveness.

The Defense is more perplexing. I did look at lot like they were resting on their laurels. NOT hungry and lacked aggressiveness.

Edman
01-14-2012, 05:15 PM
The mentality of the team was evident the first game of the season when they let Baltimore push them around like nothing. I don't care if it was in Baltimore. We played them tough there in years past win or lose. The game was not only not close, it was never competitive. It reeked of the 2006 disaster there, and that's probably a dangerous parallel between that team and the 2011 Team.

The team read their offseason press clippings and figured they would win games just by showing up. That coupled with Ben's carelessness with the ball at times (At least a turnover a game this year) leading up to -13 Turnover Ratio. Ben's preseason promises of "Lighting up the Scoreboard" and the "MVP" talk came up empty, and we trotted out the same old mediocre scoring offense in years past.

The Defense is not a perplexing situation. It just got old and teams caught onto the scheme. The New England game was the only game this year where the Steelers looked Championship material. They were fast, decisive, and relentless. Then they followed that great effort with losing to Bert Flacco on a 92-yard drive. That there should've been prime evidence of the problems with this team.

katmandu
01-14-2012, 06:06 PM
The Defense is not a perplexing situation. It just got old... .....sticks fingers in ears and yells...."lalalalalalalalalalalala! I can't hear you!"

:toofunny:

smokin3000gt
01-14-2012, 06:24 PM
Defense loses a game, they're old.
#1 Defense in the league, eh.. maybe they're not old. What a great defense!
Defense has bad game.
They're OLD and washed up!

Rinse and repeat

NCSteeler
01-15-2012, 12:05 AM
He never said they were washed up, but you have to admit at many times this season the Defense looked it's age. I just hope the young guys come back better next year.

smokin3000gt
01-15-2012, 03:41 AM
Yes but I have seen the offense look flat in the same games, so it can't all be age related.

Butch
01-15-2012, 06:00 AM
I noticed this last year in the playoffs we only played 1/2s not whole games and it came back to bite us in the ass in the superbowl. It was the same all year this past season and allowed teams to stick close when they should have been blown out. That is the most upsetting trend of all if you ask me.

ALLD
01-15-2012, 10:10 AM
It all comes down to when it changed in 1969. Joe Greene absolutely hated losing more than he liked winning. That often carried the team to victory in difficult situations, plus it motivated others to give their best.

tube517
01-15-2012, 10:22 AM
I noticed this last year in the playoffs we only played 1/2s not whole games and it came back to bite us in the ass in the superbowl. It was the same all year this past season and allowed teams to stick close when they should have been blown out. That is the most upsetting trend of all if you ask me.


Yes, good point. This year, all the "old" leaders weren't on the field alot. Who is the real leader of the defense? In year's past, somebody was the leader. This year, no so much.

fansince'76
01-15-2012, 12:09 PM
Rocky's right. I sensed a general malaise with the team as a whole all year. I kept hoping they'd snap out of it, and they did - for the games against the Pats, Titans and the second Bengals game. I hope they play with more urgency next year. I think this team is a whole lot better than they showed for the majority of this past season.

smokin3000gt
01-15-2012, 12:31 PM
It all comes down to when it changed in 1969. Joe Greene absolutely hated losing more than he liked winning. That often carried the team to victory in difficult situations, plus it motivated others to give their best.

I agree. This team needs to hate losing a little more then they do. I was glad to hear Tomlin's voice shaking during the post game interview and I wouldn't mind seeing him fired up every once in a while.

suitanim
01-16-2012, 05:51 AM
He's wrong. Everyone knows this is all Arians, or Arians and Ben's relationship. If we JUST had a better OC, we'd be scoring 100 points a game!

Dino 6 Rings
01-16-2012, 08:28 AM
Playoff Loss...

Summed up right here:

Steelers get 2 scoring drives against the Broncos in their first 2 possessions....kick FGs, go up 6-0 allowing Denver to stay in the game.

Patriots get 2 scorring drives against the Broncos in their first 2 possessions...Score Touchdowns, go up 14-0 putting Denver into a deep hole and making them change their game plan.

Patriots won, Steelers lost...

To Deny that our Offense was the FCKING PROBLEM all Season when we had the TOP DEFENSE is a fckign Head in the Sand, Ben and Bruce can do no wrong Slobber fest and refusing to recognize that the Offense is the FCKING PROBLEM!

Just saying...I watched it this weekend. Is Brady that much better than Ben that he can take a clearly less talented Receiver Core against the same Defense and shred them? Or is the Play Calling for his Offense just that much better?

But ok...lets get back to how "awesome" Bruce is. Even though his statistics suck and the defensive statistics are pretty awesome every year.

Dino 6 Rings
01-16-2012, 08:31 AM
He's wrong. Everyone knows this is all Arians, or Arians and Ben's relationship. If we JUST had a better OC, we'd be scoring 100 points a game!

If we had an OC that could call plays that got points inside the 30 yardline of the other team maybe we'd still be in the playoffs?

Coach Dad's defense does have bad games, but Bruce and Ben together have an entire Season of ineptness inside the 30 yard line. Its fact.

suitanim
01-16-2012, 08:46 AM
If we had an OC that could call plays that got points inside the 30 yardline of the other team maybe we'd still be in the playoffs?

Coach Dad's defense does have bad games, but Bruce and Ben together have an entire Season of ineptness inside the 30 yard line. Its fact.

So why didn't Blier spend even one WORD on that "theory"? How deep does the conspiratorial rabbit hole go? The FO, the coaches, the players, and even the ex-players ALL know less than you Arians haters?

86WARD
01-16-2012, 06:05 PM
i am just wonder how much of the new CBA and limiting practices in pads hurt a team like the steelers, but i agree with him 100%

Not like every team didn't have to go through that.

O'Malley
01-16-2012, 09:09 PM
I for one haven't had many good things to say about Bruce.. Still don't, IMO a new OC would be a good thing.. Charlie Batch would be better then Bruce.. JMO. I'd go for Batch hanging up the cleats and putting on a headset.. He knows the offense as well as anybody, and when he was in we put points on the board...

The Duke
01-16-2012, 09:21 PM
I for one haven't had many good things to say about Bruce.. Still don't, IMO a new OC would be a good thing.. Charlie Batch would be better then Bruce.. JMO. I'd go for Batch hanging up the cleats and putting on a headset.. He knows the offense as well as anybody, and when he was in we put points on the board...

I don't doubt Batch can be a good coach one day, but you're not given a job like that the moment you retire. I mean maybe the browns would do that but not anyone else

He's a few five years (or more) from being an OC. I do hope he stays on the team after he retires as some sort of offensive assistant. Hopefully it's this year too

GBMelBlount
01-16-2012, 09:24 PM
So why didn't Blier spend even one WORD on that "theory"? How deep does the conspiratorial rabbit hole go? The FO, the coaches, the players, and even the ex-players ALL know less than you Arians haters?

You don't think the play calling has anything to do with our low red zone efficiency?

Devilsdancefloor
01-16-2012, 10:08 PM
Not like every team didn't have to go through that.

most t4eams are not physical like the steelers are. i m not talking time off due to lock out i mean they dont have to practice in pads i think that carried over to games

suitanim
01-17-2012, 05:27 AM
You don't think the play calling has anything to do with our low red zone efficiency?

No.

GBMelBlount
01-17-2012, 06:30 AM
So when they would lhave first and goal on the one or two yard line and just try to pound it up the middle and end up settling for a field goal what would you say is the most likely reason?

suitanim
01-17-2012, 07:47 AM
So when they would lhave first and goal on the one or two yard line and just try to pound it up the middle and end up settling for a field goal what would you say is the most likely reason?

Poor offensive line is, of course, a giant factor. That actually only happened a couple of times, and one that I know of for sure was against the Browns, who I believe ranked 30th or 31st against the run. The excuse of poor playcalling is simply hindsight being 20/20, akin to Preachers preseason post about fans hating whatever call he makes only AFTER it doesn't work. Chidi had a nice breakdown of our RZ offense in another thread. It showed pretty balanced running versus passing. We have also beat the dead horse of lack of TO's, field position differential and other factors to death (so I'm not going to get into that again)....it just doesn't hold water to me that the playcalling that is good enough to get us all the way down the field (with our super crappy average starting field position) suddenly becomes bad when we get closer to the EZ. It's simply that it gets harder to score when you get closer to the endzone, and the margin for error increases. NFL defenses are based on creating offensive attrition, and a poor executing offense is going to break down sooner rather than later. The fact that we moved the ball as well as we did demonstrates that it ours actually broke down LATER rather than sooner...

GBMelBlount
01-17-2012, 08:17 AM
Poor offensive line is, of course, a giant factor. That actually only happened a couple of times, and one that I know of for sure was against the Browns, who I believe ranked 30th or 31st against the run. The excuse of poor playcalling is simply hindsight being 20/20, akin to Preachers preseason post about fans hating whatever call he makes only AFTER it doesn't work. Chidi had a nice breakdown of our RZ offense in another thread. It showed pretty balanced running versus passing. We have also beat the dead horse of lack of TO's, field position differential and other factors to death (so I'm not going to get into that again)....it just doesn't hold water to me that the playcalling that is good enough to get us all the way down the field (with our super crappy average starting field position) suddenly becomes bad when we get closer to the EZ. It's simply that it gets harder to score when you get closer to the endzone, and the margin for error increases. NFL defenses are based on creating offensive attrition, and a poor executing offense is going to break down sooner rather than later. The fact that we moved the ball as well as we did demonstrates that it ours actually broke down LATER rather than sooner...

You made a point earlier in the season that you noticed we seemed to do better on running plays when we had receivers in a more spread formation.

I agreed with your point because I had noticed that as well...

I think when you line everybody tight and try to run it down their throats it can become a bit of a cluster fook.

This is just ONE example, but my broader thought is that they could have been more creative (and less predictable) in many situations and it likely would have helped.

suitanim
01-17-2012, 08:52 AM
You made a point earlier in the season that you noticed we seemed to do better on running plays when we had receivers in a more spread formation.

I agreed with your point because I had noticed that as well...

I think when you line everybody tight and try to run it down their throats it can become a bit of a cluster fook.

This is just ONE example, but my broader thought is that they could have been more creative (and less predictable) in many situations and it likely would have helped.

But, conversely, I've also heard complaints that when we "get creative", Arians is getting to fancy and should simplify things.

Bottom line is we just don't execute well enough. The difference between ONE key block on a running play could be the difference between a 75 yard TD run and a 3 yard loss. If player A makes the key block on the play, Arians looks like a genius. If same player A whiffs, Arians looks like an idiot. I suggest that he is neither genius nor idiot, just a pretty good coordinator who has some player performance issues that decrease his performance results.

suitanim
01-17-2012, 09:06 AM
Another problem I have is with some of the false notions that people are operating under One is that Arians is somehow lazy, or doesn't gameplan each week. That's nonsense. He probably spends 50-60 hours a week on the gameplan, just like every other OC does. He watches film, looks for weaknesses to exploit, holes in the defense, etc, etc...then builds a gameplan to suit. When we come out passing against a team that is supposedly strong against the pass, THAT IS being creative. He's damned if does, and damned if he doesn't. When he runs against the Browns with their shitty run defense, and it doesn't work, he gets the blame. When he runs against a team trying to surprise them and it doesn't work, he gets the blame. When he actually DOES surprise the other team, he almost always gets short changed on the credit side and the players get the accolades.

Then there is this notion that he controls who plays. WRONG. That's Tomlin's call. The OC doesn't set line-ups, the HC does.

That also ties into my final complaint. The OC does NOT have complete autonomy. He doesn't just get to make-up gameplans and run whatever he wants, that stuff has to be cleared and vetted by Tomlin.

These are all factors that need to be figured in before people just reflexively start heaping derision on Arians every time we lose a football game.

Chidi29
01-17-2012, 11:31 AM
One semi-random side note. Bob Bratkowski, the former Bengals' OC that drew the ire of fans for years, is back to being an OC for Jacksonville after just one year.

Just goes to show that these guys are typically more competent than fans make them out to be.

zulater
01-17-2012, 11:41 AM
One semi-random side note. Bob Bratkowski, the former Bengals' OC that drew the ire of fans for years, is back to being an OC for Jacksonville after just one year.

Just goes to show that these guys are typically more competent than fans make them out to be.

Either that or teams are too lazy to unearth better candidates. Easier and cheaper to go to the old scrap heap and get a retread. :heh:

fansince'76
01-17-2012, 11:51 AM
Another problem I have is with some of the false notions that people are operating under One is that Arians is somehow lazy, or doesn't gameplan each week. That's nonsense. He probably spends 50-60 hours a week on the gameplan, just like every other OC does. He watches film, looks for weaknesses to exploit, holes in the defense, etc, etc...then builds a gameplan to suit.

Pishaw! He recycles the same predictable grab bag every week!

http://royalsblog.kansascity.com/files/images/grabbag.preview.jpg

:chuckle:

suitanim
01-17-2012, 12:16 PM
I remember reading an article in my local paper about what went into J.D. Brookhart's offensive gameplan from week to week when he was the HC at Akron (Pitt fans probably remember him as their OC during the Fitzgerald era). He was also wearing the OC hat during his stint here, and he was spending AT LEAST 40 hours JUST on his offensive plan each week. It was quite intense, involving watching tons of film on their opponent from not just their last game, but against teams from seasons past who ran similar offenses to Akron. There was a LOT to it, and he did this each week for every opponent, and this was just a mid-major college team. I'm quite sure there's a whole stratosphere of higher pressure and intensity at the pro level.

I really wish I would have saved it...

Chidi29
01-17-2012, 01:14 PM
I was watching NFL Matchup this week and Merril Hoge said he watched 36 hours of film that week to prepare for the show.

It's fair to assume that Arians is spending 50 hours a week minimum preparing and that probably includes sleeping in his officer Sunday through Tuesday to get the gameplan ready.

Side note: NFL Matchup should really be on in a better timeslot.

suitanim
01-17-2012, 04:06 PM
I was watching NFL Matchup this week and Merril Hoge said he watched 36 hours of film that week to prepare for the show.

It's fair to assume that Arians is spending 50 hours a week minimum preparing and that probably includes sleeping in his officer Sunday through Tuesday to get the gameplan ready.

Side note: NFL Matchup should really be on in a better timeslot.

This is a big reason why I am very hesitant to ever resort to knee-jerk overreactions. I researched and wrote up a long piece on Arians path to Steelers OC job a few years ago (can't seem to find that, either) and it was an impressive journey. He certainly has earned the status of being above reproach by the average ham-n-egger fan, which is exactly why I appear to be such a supporter (although I admit he does things I question from time-to-time) in my posts. What it really is is respect for the resume the guy has built and the hours he's put in, not to mention the fact that he has managed to continually be retained by what I consider to be the finest organization in all of sports.

NCSteeler
01-17-2012, 11:58 PM
This is a big reason why I am very hesitant to ever resort to knee-jerk overreactions. I researched and wrote up a long piece on Arians path to Steelers OC job a few years ago (can't seem to find that, either) and it was an impressive journey. He certainly has earned the status of being above reproach by the average ham-n-egger fan, which is exactly why I appear to be such a supporter (although I admit he does things I question from time-to-time) in my posts. What it really is is respect for the resume the guy has built and the hours he's put in, not to mention the fact that he has managed to continually be retained by what I consider to be the finest organization in all of sports.

I guess the commissioner isn't above reproach though. And you would knee jerk react to anything he does right? He has quite a resume and continues to be retained by 31 organizations and 1 of the finest.

NCSteeler
01-17-2012, 11:59 PM
One semi-random side note. Bob Bratkowski, the former Bengals' OC that drew the ire of fans for years, is back to being an OC for Jacksonville after just one year.

Just goes to show that these guys are typically more competent than fans make them out to be.

Being hired again doesn't make the guy any better. For several years people be moaned Dan Hennignin NC and he quickly got hired by the Phins, pretty sure he got run out of town there too.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 12:12 AM
Being hired again doesn't make the guy any better. For several years people be moaned Dan Hennignin NC and he quickly got hired by the Phins, pretty sure he got run out of town there too.

He's obviously doing something to put him in a coordinator job for so long, no?

suitanim
01-18-2012, 05:32 AM
I guess the commissioner isn't above reproach though. And you would knee jerk react to anything he does right? He has quite a resume and continues to be retained by 31 organizations and 1 of the finest.

I showed you an apple.

You showed me a rotted piece of dogshit.

Its a cute tactic to keep trying to compare Goodell and Arians, however, it's also completely irrelevant,not to mention diversionary. The difference between how I feel about Goodell and you feel about Arians is one opinion (mine) is informed opinion, based on sound empirical data, and the other on blind, myopic hatred.

zulater
01-18-2012, 08:11 AM
This is a big reason why I am very hesitant to ever resort to knee-jerk overreactions. I researched and wrote up a long piece on Arians path to Steelers OC job a few years ago (can't seem to find that, either) and it was an impressive journey. He certainly has earned the status of being above reproach by the average ham-n-egger fan, which is exactly why I appear to be such a supporter (although I admit he does things I question from time-to-time) in my posts. What it really is is respect for the resume the guy has built and the hours he's put in, not to mention the fact that he has managed to continually be retained by what I consider to be the finest organization in all of sports.

Kordell Stewart was "retained" by the finest organization in sports for quite a while too. :heh:

NCSteeler
01-18-2012, 08:24 AM
I showed you an apple.

You showed me a rotted piece of dogshit.

Its a cute tactic to keep trying to compare Goodell and Arians, however, it's also completely irrelevant,not to mention diversionary. The difference between how I feel about Goodell and you feel about Arians is one opinion (mine) is informed opinion, based on sound empirical data, and the other on blind, myopic hatred.

Empirical data? Where's your ratings stats, how about earnings, how about differences between commissioners fines or penalties? I've followed all the Goodell threads and you shout about how bad he is about how he ruining the game, sounds knee jerk and over blown to me, I don't see this Empirical Data.

I can't believe someone of your intelligence does not see how the two arguments are very much the same

suitanim
01-18-2012, 09:02 AM
Empirical data? Where's your ratings stats, how about earnings, how about differences between commissioners fines or penalties? I've followed all the Goodell threads and you shout about how bad he is about how he ruining the game, sounds knee jerk and over blown to me, I don't see this Empirical Data.

I can't believe someone of your intelligence does not see how the two arguments are very much the same

When the captain of the Titanic sped up to run into the iceberg, the ship wasn't broken...it, in fact, sped up on command. The ship was still doomed, however, no matter how optimally it was running prior to the collision. What Goodell is doing to the NFL is akin to what happened to NASCAR. I'd like to point out that before it's popularity waned, and TV ratings tanked, it was the fastest growing sport in the World. The NFL is running on auto-pilot and still manages massive TV ratings, but it will not if he continues to water down the game. That is irrelevant to the Steelers situation, because they are utterly unrelated. One is based on reality, the other based on a combination of frustration and a lack of understanding of the subtleties of the game by a portion of the fanbase.

suitanim
01-18-2012, 09:15 AM
In fact, let me give you an example of something Goodell does that is so irrational as to defy logic, and you try to show me an example of equally inexplicable analogous behavior on the part of Arians: Roger Goodell sanctions and approves of routinely FINING players for hits that aren't even illegal.

What does Arians do that even remotely equates to that kind of mental retardation?

zulater
01-18-2012, 09:20 AM
In fact, let me give you an example of something Goodell does that is so irrational as to defy logic, and you try to show me an example of equally inexplicable analogous behavior on the part of Arians: Roger Goodell sanctions and approves of routinely FINING players for hits that aren't even illegal.

What does Arians do that even remotely equates to that kind of mental retardation?

Going with an empty back set in the red zone on first down when time isn't a factor.

Nothing like tipping your hand and making the defense's job that much easier. :doh:

btw I get that sometimes the empty set is employed to take advantage of defensive personell groupings, and occasionally you even force a defensive time out. But overall I cringe when they come out with that, and usually the results aren't there.

suitanim
01-18-2012, 10:00 AM
Going with an empty back set in the red zone on first down when time isn't a factor.

Nothing like tipping your hand and making the defense's job that much easier. :doh:

btw I get that sometimes the empty set is employed to take advantage of defensive personell groupings, and occasionally you even force a defensive time out. But overall I cringe when they come out with that, and usually the results aren't there.

I anticipated that answer. I've seen the Saints do it. The Pats do it. The Cards do it. The Pack do it. Even the BROWNS do it.

That dog don't hunt, because in this day and age, EVERY TEAM runs empty sets in all situations. So, to say that the Steelers doing something that every other team is doing is equal to Goodell's stupidity...sorry, that just doesn't hold any water.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 12:00 PM
Going with an empty back set in the red zone on first down when time isn't a factor.

Nothing like tipping your hand and making the defense's job that much easier. :doh:

btw I get that sometimes the empty set is employed to take advantage of defensive personell groupings, and occasionally you even force a defensive time out. But overall I cringe when they come out with that, and usually the results aren't there.

How many draw plays out of shotgun have we run in the red zone?

zulater
01-18-2012, 12:59 PM
How many draw plays out of shotgun have we run in the red zone?

It's not a matter of wanting to run draw plays. It's a matter of holding a safety and possibly a linebacker at bay by presenting the threat of a running play. And why the hell do I want to go shotgun on first and 10 inside the redzone anyway?

zulater
01-18-2012, 01:04 PM
I anticipated that answer. I've seen the Saints do it. The Pats do it. The Cards do it. The Pack do it. Even the BROWNS do it.

That dog don't hunt, because in this day and age, EVERY TEAM runs empty sets in all situations. So, to say that the Steelers doing something that every other team is doing is equal to Goodell's stupidity...sorry, that just doesn't hold any water.

I still think it's a losing proposition in the red zone. The defensive backs jobs have already been made easier by having less territory to defend. Now by going empty back set you insure the safeties will can be deployed to stop the pass as well. Blitz or cover, but no need to worry about the possibility of the run.

Though I will admit one time we brought the slot receiver ( I think it was Brown) across the formation for the draw and it worked for a big play.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 01:10 PM
It's not a matter of wanting to run draw plays. It's a matter of holding a safety and possibly a linebacker at bay by presenting the threat of a running play. And why the hell do I want to go shotgun on first and 10 inside the redzone anyway?

You're side-stepping the question.

If we never run a draw, defenses can very reasonably expect a pass. Yes, there is still an outside shot of a run play, but the defense is still playing the pass first and will react to run.

SteelMember
01-18-2012, 01:37 PM
You're side-stepping the question.

If we never run a draw, defenses can very reasonably expect a pass. Yes, there is still an outside shot of a run play, but the defense is still playing the pass first and will react to run.

From this statement, it sounds to me like you're in agreement. Since he did say he was against the empty set backfield/5wide in that situation.

It's probably pretty difficult to feign a draw when there is nobody there to begin with.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 01:52 PM
From this statement, it sounds to me like you're in agreement. Since he did say he was against the empty set backfield/5wide in that situation.

It's probably pretty difficult to feign a draw when there is nobody there to begin with.

No, I'm saying that even if we line up with a back in the backfield and never run out of the formation, then defenses are going to assume pass anyway. Based on tendencies, there's no reason to expect run.

zulater
01-18-2012, 01:58 PM
No, I'm saying that even if we line up with a back in the backfield and never run out of the formation, then defenses are going to assume pass anyway. Based on tendencies, there's no reason to expect run.

Why can't you run on first and 10 down in the redzone? Have they made it illegal? To me you should run inside the 20 on first and 10 around 45% of the time over the course of a season.

Obvious exception being lack of clock.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 02:01 PM
Why can't you run on first and 10 down in the redzone? Have they made it illegal? To me you should run inside the 20 on first and 10 around 45% of the time over the course of a season.

Obvious exception being lack of clock.

I'm not saying what we should or should not do. I'm saying what we have done.

Your premise is that the mere fact of putting a RB in the backfield will force the defense to respect the chance of a run. Mine is that if we rarely or never run the draw, they're not going to respect it and essentially treat the play as a pass.

SteelMember
01-18-2012, 02:06 PM
No, I'm saying that even if we line up with a back in the backfield and never run out of the formation, then defenses are going to assume pass anyway. Based on tendencies, there's no reason to expect run.

You could maybe assume tendency, but there is still a possibility. That is the threat of the formation.

SteelMember
01-18-2012, 02:08 PM
I'm not saying what we should or should not do. I'm saying what we have done.

Your premise is that the mere fact of putting a RB in the backfield will force the defense to respect the chance of a run. Mine is that if we rarely or never run the draw, they're not going to respect it and essentially treat the play as a pass.

Why does it have to be a draw? Why can't it be a simple dive play?

zulater
01-18-2012, 02:12 PM
I'm not saying what we should or should not do. I'm saying what we have done.

Your premise is that the mere fact of putting a RB in the backfield will force the defense to respect the chance of a run. Mine is that if we rarely or never run the draw, they're not going to respect it and essentially treat the play as a pass.

I'd say we run around 25-30% of the time on first and 10 in the redzone. So if there's a back there they've got to at least respect him somewhat?

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 02:12 PM
Why does it have to be a draw? Why can't it be a simple dive play?

Well when he says empty set, I think all but one this year we've run that out of the shotgun. So I'm still assuming shotgun with a back riding sidecar.

We have run plenty of dives on 1st down in the red zone. That isn't zu's issue.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 02:13 PM
You could maybe assume tendency, but there is still a possibility. That is the threat of the formation.

If we've passed 50 times and run twice, the runs are barely on the radar of the defense. Coaches look for these tendencies for a reason.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 02:14 PM
I'd say we run around 25-30% of the time on first and 10 in the redzone. So if there's a back there they've got to at least respect him somewhat?

Where do you think you're getting that figure from?

zulater
01-18-2012, 02:15 PM
Well when he says empty set, I think all but one this year we've run that out of the shotgun. So I'm still assuming shotgun with a back riding sidecar.

We have run plenty of dives on 1st down in the red zone. That isn't zu's issue.

I'm saying I'd usually prefer we stay away from empty back sets on first and 10 in the red zone. The exception being if you complete a play and see the defensive personell on the field that couldn't match up with that set, and can get the play off in time for them not to adjust.

zulater
01-18-2012, 02:17 PM
Where do you think you're getting that figure from?

Just a guestimate? I don't have time to go through it now, but I know Mendenhall seems to get his carries in the redzone.

zulater
01-18-2012, 02:19 PM
Getting back to suit's retarded premise. I seem to remember a game in Cleveland where we went empty back set on 3rd and 1 about 3 straight times, failing miserably in each instance to convert the first down.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Getting back to suit's retarded premise. I seem to remember a game in Cleveland where we went empty back set on 3rd and 1 about 3 straight times, failing miserably in each instance to convert the first down.

And also failed miserably trying to run the ball on 3rd and 1.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 02:31 PM
Just a guestimate? I don't have time to go through it now, but I know Mendenhall seems to get his carries in the redzone.

If you have the time later on or whenever, I'd be interested in seeing how that stacks up to the actual numbers.

suitanim
01-18-2012, 03:52 PM
Getting back to suit's retarded premise. I seem to remember a game in Cleveland where we went empty back set on 3rd and 1 about 3 straight times, failing miserably in each instance to convert the first down.

RETARDED premise?

You're currently getting schooled by Chidi here, because you're talking out your ass, and you're calling ME retarded?

Listen. I watch a lot of football. This Arians hating nonsense grates, because it's very, very stupid. I find myself noticing other teams duplicating what Arians does ALL THE FUCKING TIME, including running empty sets in the redzone, and having success. The problem here isn't the playcalling, it's the myopic hatred of Arians haters conveniently forgetting every instance of success and obsessively dwelling on the failure.

Your own POST calls attention to the problem. You're complaining about passing in the redzone against Cleveland. You left out a couple factors: Like dropped passes. And bad passes. Yet, you'll also certainly complain when we RUN against Cleveland in the Redzone. The commonality has nothing to do with the actual playcalling, it has to do with the RESULT! This goes right back to Preach's preseason post about second guessing every decision that fails, and ignoring anything that works.

If you step back and analyze YOURSELF instead of Arians, you'll find that you are weighing failure with much more gravity than success. A little more objectivity is probably in order here...

fansince'76
01-18-2012, 04:46 PM
Please keep it civil, folks. Thanks.

zulater
01-18-2012, 05:54 PM
RETARDED premise?

You're currently getting schooled by Chidi here, because you're talking out your ass, and you're calling ME retarded?

Listen. I watch a lot of football. This Arians hating nonsense grates, because it's very, very stupid. I find myself noticing other teams duplicating what Arians does ALL THE FUCKING TIME, including running empty sets in the redzone, and having success. The problem here isn't the playcalling, it's the myopic hatred of Arians haters conveniently forgetting every instance of success and obsessively dwelling on the failure.

Your own POST calls attention to the problem. You're complaining about passing in the redzone against Cleveland. You left out a couple factors: Like dropped passes. And bad passes. Yet, you'll also certainly complain when we RUN against Cleveland in the Redzone. The commonality has nothing to do with the actual playcalling, it has to do with the RESULT! This goes right back to Preach's preseason post about second guessing every decision that fails, and ignoring anything that works.

If you step back and analyze YOURSELF instead of Arians, you'll find that you are weighing failure with much more gravity than success. A little more objectivity is probably in order here...

I wasn't calling you retarded. I was only referencing your prior usage of the word in this thread. My fault, I should have put the word in quotations.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

zulater
01-18-2012, 06:14 PM
And also failed miserably trying to run the ball on 3rd and 1.

I hate when we tip our hand with our formations period. I hate when we line up with a 3 tight end heavy formations just as much as I hate an empty set on first down in the red zone . When we try to impose our will, we almost always fail. We need to keep our option's open, or more to the point keep our opponents guessing, at least to some degree anyway.

And before this goes any further, I don't hate Arians. I'm not wild about him obviously, but I realize he's above average at his job, and he's helped Ben immensly in his development. That said I think we may have come to a point where he's brought Ben as far along the road as he's capable of, and a new voice might take Ben and this offense to greater heights. In other words I think the status quo could be bringing about stagnation or worse yet regression.

Change would come with risk no doubt. Things obviously could get worse. But in my opinion it's a risk worth taking, and the right hire could prove extremely beneficial.

Now of course I have no say in such matters. And I wont argue the people making the decision have a sound track record, and as a fan in the end I'll always defer to them.

But this is a message board, and damned if I don't have the right to say my piece. Particularly in the offseason.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 06:25 PM
I hate when we tip our hand with our formations period. I hate when we line up with a 3 tight end heavy formations just as much as I hate an empty set on first down in the red zone . When we try to impose our will, we almost always fail. We need to keep our option's open, or more to the point keep our opponents guessing, at least to some degree anyway.

And before this goes any further, I don't hate Arians. I'm not wild about him obviously, but I realize he's above average at his job, and he's helped Ben immensly in his development. That said I think we may have come to a point where he's brought Ben as far along the road as he's capable of, and a new voice might take Ben and this offense to greater heights. In other words I think the status quo could be bringing about stagnation.

Change would come with risk no doubt. Things obviously could get worse. But in my opinion it's a risk worth taking, and the right hire could prove extremely beneficial.

Now of course I have no say in such matters. And I wont argue the people making the decision have a sound track record, and as a fan in the end I'll always defer to them.

But this is a message board, and damned if I don't have the right to say my piece. Particularly in the offseason.

Like I've said in the past, just because you have a good idea of run or pass doesn't mean you know everything. Obviously, and I know you realize this, the game is a lot more complicated than just "run" or "pass". So I don't mind those formations. Imposing your will is what good teams do.

I recognize you don't hate Arians as much as some others do. I'm not talking to you to gauge your dislike for him. I'm talking about one piece of the argument. All feelings set aside.

I'm just curious, do you have anyone in mind as to who a better OC would be? I'm not being critical if you don't, just wondering who you would like. I still think Fitchner will become the next OC and he has a similar style to Arians (installed the spread at Memphis, for example).

zulater
01-18-2012, 06:27 PM
Dang you Rocky Bleier and your argument provoking opinions!!!!:rant:




:wink02:

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 06:32 PM
Dang you Rocky Bleier and your argument provoking opinions!!!!:rant:




:wink02:

He's tearing the board apart!

Vote for SOPA!

zulater
01-18-2012, 06:39 PM
Like I've said in the past, just because you have a good idea of run or pass doesn't mean you know everything. Obviously, and I know you realize this, the game is a lot more complicated than just "run" or "pass". So I don't mind those formations. Imposing your will is what good teams do.


It's what great units do! At times our defense has been able to impose it's will, particularly against other teams running games. Back in the day we could impose our will on the ground. But then the Bus retired and the line deteriorated. Right now our offense can't impose it's will on virtually anyone. We need to use at least some form of deception. In other words we can't tip our hand because we aren't a great offense!

I recognize you don't hate Arians as much as some others do. I'm not talking to you to gauge your dislike for him. I'm talking about one piece of the argument. All feelings set aside.

I don't hate him even a little bit. I respect what he's done for Ben and our offense. But I'm not sure if he's too close to Ben personally to get him to take those final few steps needed to authentic greatness? Sometimes the carrot gets better results than the stick, and other times the stick yields the highest return. I just got a feeling Ben needs less friend and more coach to take that last step.

I'm just curious, do you have anyone in mind as to who a better OC would be? I'm not being critical if you don't, just wondering who you would like. I still think Fitchner will become the next OC and he has a similar style to Arians (installed the spread at Memphis, for example).

I don't pretend to know. Just as I had no idea who Mike Tomlin was before they hired him. I'm sure if the Steelers conducted a search they could find the right guy.

zulater
01-18-2012, 06:58 PM
BTW Arians was a good hire, or rather promoting him was the right thing to do at the time.

I hope he, Ben, and the offense can get the things they need to straighten out straightened out during OTA's, and training camp.

When the time actually comes that they replace Bruce, I hope they go off the reservation. That is unless we see a much more efficient unit in the season(s) ahead. Be that the case, then obviously you'll be able to make a strong case to promote from within.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 07:02 PM
I don't know if you saw my post the other day, but I put very few of the red zone problems on Bruce. If we can play at the level we're capapable of in the red area, we'll be a top seven offense at worst. Which means you'll have to go along with a 4000 yard passer, near 1000 yard rusher, two 1100 yard receviers, a great 3rd down percentage, and a team that is constantly successful each year.

Any other team and he isn't even in the conversation about being fired.

zulater
01-18-2012, 07:07 PM
I don't know if you saw my post the other day, but I put very few of the red zone problems on Bruce. If we can play at the level we're capapable of in the red area, we'll be a top seven offense at worst. Which means you'll have to go along with a 4000 yard passer, near 1000 yard rusher, two 1100 yard receviers, a great 3rd down percentage, and a team that is constantly successful each year.

Any other team and he isn't even in the conversation about being fired.

Reduce the turnovers and sacks and increase the points and there wont be any conversation here either.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 07:18 PM
Reduce the turnovers and sacks and increase the points and there wont be any conversation here either.

I will tell Bruce to make sure he tells the players extra nicely to stop fumbling the ball.

:chuckle:

BlacknGoldBabe
01-18-2012, 07:32 PM
This is just ONE example, but my broader thought is that they could have been more creative (and less predictable) in many situations and it likely would have helped.

Predictability is the key word here. If Arians is staying, then he'd better come up with something that isn't like taking Milk of Magnesia and looking at your watch for the outcome.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 07:37 PM
Predictability is the key word here. If Arians is staying, then he'd better come up with something that isn't like taking Milk of Magnesia and looking at your watch for the outcome.

When did the predictability happen?

zulater
01-18-2012, 07:44 PM
I will tell Bruce to make sure he tells the players extra nicely to stop fumbling the ball.

:chuckle:

Ben's the biggest offender when it comes to fumbling. I think some of Ben's fumbles can be attributed to play calling, lack of discipline, and poor situational awareness. You believe Arians has no culpability in Ben's fumbling? Well consider this. In Ben's first 3 seasons combined he had a total of 5 fumbles. Those were the years Whisenhunt was his OC. In Arians 5 seasons Ben has fumbled 33 times.

Another way of saying it...he averages more in a season now ( over 6 per) than he accumulated in total in his 3 season under Whiz.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 07:55 PM
Ben's the biggest offender when it comes to fumbling. I think some of Ben's fumbles can be attributed to play calling, lack of discipline, and poor situational awareness. You believe Arians has no culpability in Ben's fumbling? Well consider this. In Ben's first 3 seasons combined he had a total of 5 fumbles. Those were the years Whisenhunt was his OC. In Arians 5 seasons Ben has fumbled 33 times.

Another way of saying it...he averages more in a season now ( over 6 per) than he accumulated in total in his 3 season under Whiz.

First, I only count 21 fumbles. A small part of that has to do with Ben simply passing more so fumbles are going to occur more often (though looking at the averages,, they are more frequent under Arians than Whiz).

It's hard to say who is blame and dagerous to paint it with a broad brush. How did the fumbles occur? Was Ben running and fumbled? Was it a mistake along the offensive line (such as Dumervil's late in the game where we couldn't pick up a simple stunt)? Something else?

And when you look at Ben's development, the pros of Arians greatly outweighs the negatives. You said it yourself that Arians has been a help for Ben and getting him to where he is now (a top 5 QB in the minds of the vast majority of football fans).

zulater
01-18-2012, 08:08 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5536/ben-roethlisberger

Says here 38 career fumbles, 33 in the last 5 years.

We could go round and round here, I understand the principles of your argument, and don't necessarily disagree with them. But in the end Ben needs to practice better ball security than he has been. If that takes the OC getting in his grill when he's been particularly careless so be it. Ben obviously disliked Whisenhunt greatly. But I tell you what, he sure as hell played good for him. Rewatch the 05 playoffs. Ben did things a second year quarterback shouldn't be able to do.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 08:19 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5536/ben-roethlisberger

Says here 38 career fumbles, 33 in the last 5 years.

We could go round and round here, I understand the principles of your argument, and don't necessarily disagree with them. But in the end Ben needs to practice better ball security than he has been. If that takes the OC getting in his grill when he's been particularly careless so be it. Ben obviously disliked Whisenhunt greatly. But I tell you what, he sure as hell played good for him. Rewatch the 05 playoffs. Ben did things a second year quarterback shouldn't be able to do.

Since you said 5 fumbles in his first three years, I assumed you were going off fumbles lost. Since that lines up with what it says on Yahoo.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6770/career;_ylt=AhbuSXrKEjOOrIWF0o9paJX.uLYF

According to your link, half of his fumbles have come from rushing.

GBMelBlount
01-18-2012, 10:28 PM
First, I only count 21 fumbles. A small part of that has to do with Ben simply passing more so fumbles are going to occur more often (though looking at the averages,, they are more frequent under Arians than Whiz).

It's hard to say who is blame and dagerous to paint it with a broad brush. How did the fumbles occur? Was Ben running and fumbled? Was it a mistake along the offensive line (such as Dumervil's late in the game where we couldn't pick up a simple stunt)? Something else?

And when you look at Ben's development, the pros of Arians greatly outweighs the negatives. You said it yourself that Arians has been a help for Ben and getting him to where he is now (a top 5 QB in the minds of the vast majority of football fans).

GREATLY?

What has so significantly improved?

In fact, his quarterback rating was better his first two years in the league with little experience than his last two years....

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 10:37 PM
Really?

Tell me aobut these great positives Chidi?

What has so significantly improved?

In fact, his quarterback rating was better his first two years in the league with little experience than his last two years....

Yes, because quarterback rating is the all-important factor you look at when talking about how good a QB is.

Ben's game has clearly progressed, especially the past two years. From a mental and maturity standpoint, he's grown by leaps and bounds. I've shown examples of that multiple times the past two seasons.

GBMelBlount
01-18-2012, 10:42 PM
Yes, because quarterback rating is the all-important factor you look at when talking about how good a QB is.

Ben's game has clearly progressed, especially the past two years. From a mental and maturity standpoint, he's grown by leaps and bounds. I've shown examples of that multiple times the past two seasons.

Gottya. From a mental and maturity stand point.

I feel much better now....especially with there being multiple examples. :chuckle:

Seriously though Chidi. I only threw QB rating in for perspective.

I know you know your stuff.

It is just frustrating when there is so much talent and less than expected results from the offense.

Chidi29
01-18-2012, 11:26 PM
Gottya. From a mental and maturity stand point.

I feel much better now....especially with there being multiple examples. :chuckle:

Seriously though Chidi. I only threw QB rating in for perspective.

I know you know your stuff.

It is just frustrating when there is so much talent and less than expected results from the offense.

Last Year

- I thought Ben did a lot better in regards to checking down against the blitz and hitting his hot read. Big area of struggle for him last year, and one aspect that has really been holding him back from being an elite QB. Couple examples of this:

- 2nd and 8, 7:17 left in the first: It's supposed to be a block and release by Spaeth. He can't get off clean and ends up falling down. Ben has two defenders coming at him, but knowing where his checkdown is, throws a swing pass to Mendenall who fights his way for a couple of yards.

- His TD to Ward. Heavy blitz, no way we pick it up with only six guys. Ben throws it to Ward on an in route, who was actually running the wrong route. Probably a product of him and Ben being able to read the same thing, heavy blitz by the defense, and making the needed adjustments. Especially great to see in the red zone. We left so many points on the board with turnovers/failed opportunites there last year. Look at nearly any of our "bad" losses, and you'll see multiple mistakes in the red zone.

- Loved what Ben did maybe more than what Ward did on his TD. Blitz right in his face but Ben isn't fazed, doesn't try to escape the defender; he just makes a stick throw on the out route and lets Ward do the rest.

- 4th and 2 play after the fumble. Good job by Ben to go through his progressions and find Johnson. Certainly not his first target.

- Late in the first quarter. 3rd and 3. Empty set versus a similar blitz as you'll see in Sack #1 listed below. Ben gets the ball out by the end of his drop and Sanders runs a shorter route while getting his head around. Unfortuantely, the pass was tipped at the line. But it shows blitz recognition and I'll show examples of that throughout the post. Very impressed and encouraged by that.

- Another blitz read: Empty set, blitz, Wallace on slant. Hall had a good play on the ball and broke up the pass but a good job from Ben to seeing the blitz and get the ball out of his hand.

- Just playing a little pitch and catch on Wallace's TD because of Ben's and Wallace's ability to read coverage. They see the corner blitz, Wallace gets his head around immediately, and Ben hits him.

- Ben did a really good job of manipulating Carolina's defense. Exploited blitzes, got the defense to tip their hand, and drew them offsides. Again, I'm impressed of what Ben is doing mentally.

- Another instance of Ben and the WR being on the same page. Play before the two minute warning. Panthers had eight in the box, heavy blitz look. Sanders is on the outside with the corner playing off. Almost right after the snap, Manny gets his head around and Ben hits him on the slant. Down at the one foot line.

This Year

- Ben still able to read hot at times, just not consistently enough which has always been my biggest complaint. Hit a slant to Wallace on an Ed Reed blitz, 3rd down drag to Sanders on Baltimore's "A" gap blitz.

- Great example of Ben being forced to read quick and read defenses because of the foot injury. Wants to hit a slant on a 3 step drop, sees the safety ready to jump it so Ben seamlessly moves to his second option David Johnson for a short gain.

http://i55.tinypic.com/11h6u11.png

- On the 2 minute drill that ended in Finnegan's interception, we see Ben get the ball out either hot or by the end of his drop on nearly every single play. Titans started to dial up blitzes and Ben knew he had to get the ball out. He should act like every dropback is in the 2 minute drill. Have that sense of urgency.


- Great show of discipline by Ben on a 3rd and 8. Sees the safety coming in free off the blitz and so he tries to get the ball out into the flats. The pass ended up being tipped by the safety but it shows that "live to fight another day, let the player make a play" mentality you sometimes need to have. Just like last year against the Ravens when he read hot to Redman.

- Ben doing his thing again. Nods to Ward on his second TD. Motions him to a narrower split because of the FS blitz. If Ward stays outside, the safety is probably going to knock down any wider slant.

- Ben obviously did a great job reading hot on his first drive.

- Ben routinely going through his progessions, hitting his 3rd/4th reads. Did so on Brown's TD. Looks like that was his 4th read

- Congrats to Wes Saunders for his first career touchdowns. Another example of Ben's smarts/going through progressions. Saunders not 1st, 2nd, and even probably 3rd read on play but Ben knew where to find him. Great pass and catch.

- The last TD of the game that went to Wallace on the screen. Screen to Wallace versus the near side LB blitz. Great read, YAC from Ben and Wallace. Actually had screens on both sides. Brown probably would've scored had we gone the other way but Ben correctly took the quicker screen and the one that wouldn't blindside him from the LB coming in free.

- As he's done all year, much to my pleasure, Ben getting the ball out hot and reading the blitz well.