Pats getting spanked!

[SteelerFanInStl]

Buffalo is tearing apart that weak defense. 21-0 and the first quarter isn't even over. :lol:

[fansince'76]

Prediction: Buffalo lays down the rest of the game, NE pulls it out in the 4th quarter and Disney Channel II knobslobs Brady endlessly for another week. :zzz:

[SMR]

Go Buffs!!!!!!

[SteelerFanInStl]

Of course Buffalo is already blowing it. No defense at all on the last two Pats possessions. 21-14 now.

[7willBheaven]

Reminds me of last week Miami up 17-0 and NE comes back.

I just started watching and that so called personal foul for hitting Brady on the INT return...wow...even the announcer was like WTF...but its Brady so hahah.

[Chidi29]

Reminds me of last week Miami up 17-0 and NE comes back.

I just started watching and that so called personal foul for hitting Brady on the INT return...wow...even the announcer was like WTF...but its Brady so hahah.

Rules are clear...don't touch the QB if he isn't involved in the play on a turnover. Simple restraint and you don't get called for it.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Did you see that penalty they just called on the Bills after the Brady int? That pretty much proves that you're absolutely not allowed to even touch Brady. The Bills player simply pushed Brady during the return and he got flagged for a 15 yard penalty for "unnecessarily driving the player into the turf". What a fucking joke! The Bills had prime field position before that bullshit penalty.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Rules are clear...don't touch the QB if he isn't involved in the play on a turnover. Simple restraint and you don't get called for it.

Bullshit. There's no such rule. A QB is the same as any other player after he throws an interception. The officials just proved that they're protecting Brady.

That bullshit penalty just cost the Bills at least 3 points.

[7willBheaven]

Bullshit. There's no such rule. A QB is the same as any other player after he throws an interception. The officials just proved that they're protecting Brady.

That bullshit penalty just cost the Bills at least 3 points.

Thats the way I understood it too...he becomes a football player after a turnover like that. I mean if a QB tries to make a tackle on your guy your just going to let him? No...you can block him and prevent him from making a play/etc.

[fansince'76]

Defenseless players cannot be hit in the head or neck area with the helmet, face mask, forearm or shoulder. The definition of such players now includes those throwing a pass; attempting or completing a catch without having time to ward off or avoid contact; a runner whose forward progress has been stopped by a tackler; kickoff or punt returners while the ball is in the air; kickers or punters during a kick or a return; a quarterback during a change of possession; a player who receives a blindside block from a blocker moving toward his own end zone.

Didn't see it as I'm not watching the game, but if the defender didn't hit Brady in the head or neck area, it shouldn't have been flagged. But it's the Golden Boy, so, you know...

[GodfatherofSoul]

Rules are clear...don't touch the QB if he isn't involved in the play on a turnover. Simple restraint and you don't get called for it.

Is this a new rule? Defensive players have always been taught to get a freebie whack on the QB on an INT return.

[7willBheaven]

Didn't see it as I'm not watching the game, but if the defender didn't hit Brady in the head or neck area, it shouldn't have been flagged. But it's the Golden Boy, so, you know...

Nope wasnt to the head or neck...it was just a shove.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Didn't see it as I'm not watching the game, but if the defender didn't hit Brady in the head or neck area, it shouldn't have been flagged. But it's the Golden Boy, so, you know...

All the defender did was push Brady away from the play. It's not like as if Brady was just standing there and got blind-sided. It was a complete joke of a penalty, especially the description of driving him into the ground.

[fansince'76]

Nope wasnt to the head or neck...it was just a shove.


All the defender did was push Brady away from the play. It's not like as if Brady was just standing there and got blind-sided. It was a complete joke of a penalty, especially the description of driving him into the ground.

IOW, business as usual in the "new," "safer" and "improved" NFL. Which is exactly WHY I'm not watching...

[SteelerFanInStl]

IOW, business as usual in the "new," "safer" and "improved" NFL. Which is exactly WHY I'm not watching...

Yea, pretty much. I'm just watching to cheer against the Pats and because of all of the playoff implications. It sickens me to see crap like that called.

[fansince'76]

Is this a new rule? Defensive players have always been taught to get a freebie whack on the QB on an INT return.

Especially if he tries to tackle the defender returning the INT. In that case, the returning team has every right to knock him on his ass as he's then a defender.

[Chidi29]

Is this a new rule? Defensive players have always been taught to get a freebie whack on the QB on an INT return.

Which is likely the reason why the rule was implemented.

[Chidi29]

Bullshit. There's no such rule. A QB is the same as any other player after he throws an interception. The officials just proved that they're protecting Brady.

That bullshit penalty just cost the Bills at least 3 points.

The rule does exist as '76 just pointed out.

[SteelerFanInStl]

The rule does exist as '76 just pointed out.

It doesn't exist as you stated it. Brady wasn't a 'defenseless player' on that play. He was tracking the ball and was close to the play, which makes him the SAME AS EVERY OTHER PLAYER.

For you to even try to defend that call is completey ridiculous.

[Chidi29]

It doesn't exist as you stated it. Brady wasn't a 'defenseless player' on that play. He was tracking the ball and was close to the play, which makes him the SAME AS EVERY OTHER PLAYER.

For you to even try to defend that call is completey ridiculous.

It was at the near the end of the play, Brady was a good five to seven yards away and was in a half-jog. Clearly it wasn't a defender trying to make a good block on a player, it was looking for a shot at the QB.

[Edman]

Thus, Pats are let off the hook because the Bills suck. It's always been that way for years. Patriots benefit from mediocre competition from their division, while the AFC North battles it out for seeding and home playoff games.

Fuck New England.

[SteelerFanInStl]

It was at the near the end of the play, Brady was a good five to seven yards away and was in a half-jog. Clearly it wasn't a defender trying to make a good block on a player, it was looking for a shot at the QB.

Looking for a shot? :lol: He gave him a little shove to get him away from the ball. It was a pathetic call.

[SteelerFanInStl]

And now the Pats have scored 35 straight points. The league has clearly gotten what they wanted.

[Chidi29]

Looking for a shot? :lol: He gave him a little shove to get him away from the ball. It was a pathetic call.

Why even bother tempting it by making the hit in the first place? It's just a dumb idea and no good is going to come from it.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Why even bother tempting it by making the hit in the first place? It's just a dumb idea and no good is going to come from it.

Because it's FOOTBALL! This isn't golf.

[XxKnightxX]

If youre gonna get flagged go for the fucking Kill shot. Im watching Phins and Jets and Bess just probably got his knee blown out by Bart Scott. I just finished tweeting with Polamalus brother in Law saying how its all about $afety and liability over lawsuits.

[Chidi29]

Because it's FOOTBALL! This isn't golf.

If you know it's against the rules and what you're doing may look like an illegal hit, don't even do it. It's just a selfish play.

[fansince'76]

If youre gonna get flagged go for the fucking Kill shot.

This is where I'm at. There are certain players, and we all know who they are, who have been deemed "untouchable" and it's pretty much an automatic 15 yards, and most likely a fine, for getting their little uniform dirty, so if you are going to make contact with them, knock the living shit out of them and make it worth it.

[XxKnightxX]

Cant touch the QB but the Quaterback can play safety and go at peoples knees. Really fair.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQl9tFLxy_E

[Chidi29]

Cant touch the QB but the Quaterback can play safety and go at peoples knees. Really fair.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQl9tFLxy_E

You can touch the quarterback.

Every defensive player can do that to a runner, too.

[SteelerFanInStl]

If you know it's against the rules and what you're doing may look like an illegal hit, don't even do it. It's just a selfish play.

You just don't get it. What the defensive player did was 100% LEGAL!!!!! It was a bullshit penalty. There was nothing even close to illegal about it.

[X-Terminator]

You can touch the quarterback.

Every defensive player can do that to a runner, too.

He's saying that you can't touch the QB during an INT/fumble return, but the QB is allowed to make a tackle. How the hell is that remotely fair? If a defender can't touch the QB in that situation, then the QB shouldn't be allowed to make a play.

[Nadroj 20]

I'm going to have to wait to see the play for my opinion, but it does sound questionable at the very least.

[Chidi29]

You just don't get it. What the defensive player did was 100% LEGAL!!!!! It was a bullshit penalty. There was nothing even close to illegal about it.

For a guy who didn't even know the rule existed twenty minutes ago, you sure have claimed to become a sudden expert.

[Chidi29]

He's saying that you can't touch the QB during an INT/fumble return, but the QB is allowed to make a tackle. How the hell is that remotely fair? If a defender can't touch the QB in that situation, then the QB shouldn't be allowed to make a play.

No, you can you touch the QB on those plays. It just can't be a hit to the shoulders or above.

I'm not positive exactly where the Bills' defender hit him, but it was high enough to make it look bad. My point is that there's no reason to even hit Brady there because no good will come from it.

[SteelerFanInStl]

He's saying that you can't touch the QB during an INT/fumble return, but the QB is allowed to make a tackle. How the hell is that remotely fair? If a defender can't touch the QB in that situation, then the QB shouldn't be allowed to make a play.

Exactly. If you don't want your precious QBs to get touched, then they shouldn't be allowed to make a tackle after the turnover.

[XxKnightxX]

Exactly. If you don't want your precious QBs to get touched, then they shouldn't be allowed to make a tackle after the turnover.

There you go, thats how you settle that situation. There is no argument whatsoever that this rule is completely one sided. If a QB is gonna throw a pic, be ready to suffer the consequences of having a wall of hungry savages coming to get you. Just lie down on the ground the minute you throw it.

[Chidi29]

You guys aren't understanding the rule. You're allowed to block/touch the QB!

[SteelerFanInStl]

For a guy who didn't even know the rule existed twenty minutes ago, you sure have claimed to become a sudden expert.

Didn't know the rule existed? :lol: WTF are you talking about? Brady was NOT a defenseless player like you said. He was following the ball, which means that he was involved. If he doesn't want to get hit, then he should just run off the field.

[Chidi29]

Didn't know the rule existed? :lol: WTF are you talking about? Brady was NOT a defenseless player like you said. He was following the ball, which means that he was involved. If he doesn't want to get hit, then he should just run off the field.

You said it yourself.

Bullshit. There's no such rule. A QB is the same as any other player after he throws an interception. The officials just proved that they're protecting Brady.

[X-Terminator]

No, you can you touch the QB on those plays. It just can't be a hit to the shoulders or above.

I'm not positive exactly where the Bills' defender hit him, but it was high enough to make it look bad. My point is that there's no reason to even hit Brady there because no good will come from it.

OK, I see. You can block him, but you can't hit him high. Got it now.

[The Patriot]

Ha! I was at this game. Buffalo just quit.

[vader29]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suREIsMSZ6s

[st33lersguy]

No way in hell that is called if the QB was wearing a black and gold uniform and the #7 on his chest

[LLT]

If you know it's against the rules and what you're doing may look like an illegal hit, don't even do it. It's just a selfish play.

Only one thing wrong with this statement....When blocking a player, you dont take time to look at their number or the name on their back!!!!....you are looking to block any player in an opposing uniform who is in pursuit of your teammate with the ball.

You want to get someone hurt? Keep making idiotic rules like this that will make players hesitate on the field.

Just another stupid rule from that loses EVERYTHING in actual application because those who made it have never played the game at a REAL level.

[tube517]

The QB becomes a "defenseless player" on an INT/fumble. So, if they didn't hit Marsha in the head or neck, no penalty should've been called. I didn't see the play but if he just shoved Brady and got a penalty, that's BS.

[LLT]

It was at the near the end of the play, Brady was a good five to seven yards away and was in a half-jog. Clearly it wasn't a defender trying to make a good block on a player, it was looking for a shot at the QB.

Sorry Chidi...your wrong on this one on two counts. Take a look at the replay....the block was legal and there is NO WAY that he was 5-7 yards from the runner. He was about 6 ft from the man with the ball when he is blocked....NOT 21 feet!!!!!

The blocker had every right to initiate contact...he did it legally and he did it close to the action.

[The Patriot]

Wow, that call was a total joke. But it's a league-wide problem. Of course nobody posts the video of the Pats being flagged 15 yards for hitting a "defenseless" Bills receiver.

[LLT]

Wow, that call was a total joke. But it's a league-wide problem. Of course nobody posts the video of the Pats being flagged 15 yards for hitting a "defenseless" Bills receiver.

You are exactly correct. I wrote an editorial before this season started in which I predicted that the new rules...which demand officials make "determinations" on instantaneous bang bang plays...would lead to arbitrary rulings and penalties. The ineptness of our commisioner and his lack of football intellect, would fall on the shoulders of the officials who are being put into a no-win situation.

In short....they are stuck between the wrath of the fans and the total cluelessness of our commisioner.

[43Hitman]

You are exactly correct. I wrote an editorial before this season started in which I predicted that the new rules...which demand officials make "determinations" on instantaneous bang bang plays...would lead to arbitrary rulings and penalties. The ineptness of our commisioner and his lack of football intellect, would fall on the shoulders of the officials who are being put into a no-win situation.

In short....they are stuck between the wrath of the fans and the total cluelessness of our commisioner.

I saw something yesterday with Bill Parcells where he found that one particular officiating crew had 800 yards more in personal foul penalties than the next closest crew. If that doesn't show the inconsistencies that arise when officials have to make judgment calls I don't know what will.

[tube517]

Wow, that call was a total joke. But it's a league-wide problem. Of course nobody posts the video of the Pats being flagged 15 yards for hitting a "defenseless" Bills receiver.

Even worse, he will get fined because Marsha was technically "defenseless". Such a joke.

[GBMelBlount]

If it wasn't for those damn 49 unanswered points...

[fansince'76]

Wow, that call was a total joke. But it's a league-wide problem. Of course nobody posts the video of the Pats being flagged 15 yards for hitting a "defenseless" Bills receiver.

Yes, absolutely it's a league-wide problem.

[X-Terminator]

Having seen the replay, I can't see how that was called a penalty, even taking the rule into account. There was no hit to the head or neck, it was to the shoulder and wasn't really all that hard a shot. If you can't do that to the QB when he is relatively close to the returner, then he should just run off the field and definitely should not be allowed to get in on the tackle.

[43Hitman]

Having seen the replay, I can't see how that was called a penalty, even taking the rule into account. There was no hit to the head or neck, it was to the shoulder and wasn't really all that hard a shot. If you can't do that to the QB when he is relatively close to the returner, then he should just run off the field and definitely should not be allowed to get in on the tackle.

Exactly. I remember us having this exact same discussion when we played Philly in preseason game #3. After a Vick interception where Harrison pulled up on Vick, didn't hit him, and Vick preceded to take out the ball carrier at his knees.

[Chidi29]

Sorry Chidi...your wrong on this one on two counts. Take a look at the replay....the block was legal and there is NO WAY that he was 5-7 yards from the runner. He was about 6 ft from the man with the ball when he is blocked....NOT 21 feet!!!!!

The blocker had every right to initiate contact...he did it legally and he did it close to the action.

You're right that it was closer than what I originally thought, but it is still a good three yards away (Barnett at the 39, Brady hit at the 42). Brady was slowing up on the play and was not going to even try and tackle Barnett.

I never said I was certain the hit was illegal. I said there was no reason to even tempt it by hitting Brady when he wasn't involved on the play. Quarterbacks are under a watchful eye with the rule change and no good is going to come from getting to hit Brady.

[LLT]

You're right that it was closer than what I originally thought, but it is still a good three yards away (Barnett at the 39, Brady hit at the 42). Brady was slowing up on the play and was not going to even try and tackle Barnett.

I never said I was certain the hit was illegal. I said there was no reason to even tempt it by hitting Brady when he wasn't involved on the play. Quarterbacks are under a watchful eye with the rule change and no good is going to come from getting to hit Brady.

3 yards is a diving tackle. Even at the high school level I would demand that my players block anyone within 5-10 yards of the ballcarrier...regardless of wether they were jogging or running at full steam.

Back to my original point that the players are not on the field reading numbers or seeing if it says "Brady" on the back of the jersey. The player blocked an opponant within the area of play.

[Dino 6 Rings]

Brady took a huge Dive on that play! HA! That's classic!

That was a bad call on the Penalty. Pretty funny.

[Chidi29]

3 yards is a diving tackle. Even at the high school level I would demand that my players block anyone within 5-10 yards of the ballcarrier...regardless of wether they were jogging or running at full steam.

Back to my original point that the players are not on the field reading numbers or seeing if it says "Brady" on the back of the jersey. The player blocked an opponant within the area of play.

The day Brady makes a three yard diving tackle from that angle is the day I pick a fight with James Harrison.

Florence saw it was Brady the whole time. He stopped turned, saw other players like Welker in pursuit but chose to hone in on Brady.

Jarius Byrd was smart enough on the play to start to block Brady right between the numbers and then pulled up and looked for someone else.

[Dino 6 Rings]

I think the rule about hitting the QB after an interception was put in place after guys on Defense started using the int as an opportunity to take a free hit on the QB because they were "blocking" him. There were some pretty brutal hits put on QBs with Crack Black Blind Side "Blocks" when the QB was in "pursuit" of the guy who made the INT.

You pretty much just need to get in the QB's way these days and not really block him. A guy like Ben, or I'd say even Cam Newton or Josh Freeman or some of your Bigger QBs will not get the "call" for being Blocked Too Hard the way some smaller more fragile guys like Brady or Breese or Manning (Payton not Eli) will get the call.

[GodfatherofSoul]

I'd never seen that replay before. Brady is making an active effort to get to the ball carrier, that makes him block bait. Usually QBs will stand back to protect themselves.

[LLT]

The day Brady makes a three yard diving tackle from that angle is the day I pick a fight with James Harrison.

Not really the point...You said that he was out of play when he was obviously not. He was a player 3 yards behind the ball carrier and OBVIOUSLY in pursuit.


Florence saw it was Brady the whole time. He stopped turned, saw other players like Welker in pursuit but chose to hone in on Brady.

Throwing the BS flag on that....you have no way of knowing that. I stand by my statement that players dont look for individuals when blocking...they are looking for opposing jerseys. That is a fact. If you have some way of proving that Florence KNEW it was Brady I would be happy to hear it.


Jarius Byrd was smart enough on the play to start to block Brady right between the numbers and then pulled up and looked for someone else

That is simply not true. Byrd put both hands on Brady (Just like Florence) and only stopped blocking when Brady came to a FULL STOP. The only difference between the blocks by Byrd and Florence was that Brady quit pursuit on the Byrd block so Byrd didnt have to follow through. With Florence...Brady continued pursuit and "flopped" as soon as it was evident that Florence was following through on the block.

Both players legally blocked Brady...there is NO way around it.

[Chidi29]

Not really the point...You said that he was out of play when he was obviously not.



Throwing the BS flag on that....you have no way of knowing that. I stand by my statement that players dont look for individuals when blocking...they are looking for opposing jerseys. That is a fact. If you have some way of proving that Florence KNEW it was Brady I would be happy to hear it.


That is simply not true. Byrd put both hands on Brady (Just like Florence) and only stopped blocking when Brady came to a FULL STOP. The only difference between the blocks by Byrd and Florence was that Brady quit pursuit on the Byrd block so Byrd didnt have to follow through. With Florence...Brady continued pursuit and "flopped" as soon as it was evident that Florence was following through on the block.

Both players legally blocked Brady...there is NO way around it.

For Brady he's out of the play. Do you seriously think he was in any position to make the tackle by the poiint he was hit? Or you yelling at the TV, "Watch out Nick Barnett. Tom Brady is closing in quick!"

Florence comes in from the left side of the screen, pivots, scans the field and then goes after Brady instead of a real threat like Wes Welker. And we're not talking about an obscure player here that wouldn't be immediately recognizeable by number. We're talking about their starting QB.

Based on that evidence, it is reasonable to assume he knew it was Brady.

Byrd doesn't wait for Brady to stop. They're not entangled in a block and Brady gives up and then Byrd moves in. It was a half-second block by Byrd who saw Brady wasn't involved with the play and almost immediately leaves after contact (seriously, time how long the two are engaged). Byrd then looks for an actual threat to block.

Looking at the replay, yeah it was a bad call by the refs. But that wasn't my point. I said it is selfish to even attempt to block Brady in that situation because no good is going to come from it.

[LLT]

For Brady he's out of the play. Do you seriously think he was in any position to make the tackle by the poiint he was hit? Or you yelling at the TV, "Watch out Nick Barnett. Tom Brady is closing in quick!"

Florence comes in from the left side of the screen, pivots, scans the field and then goes after Brady instead of a real threat like Wes Welker. And we're not talking about an obscure player here that wouldn't be immediately recognizeable by number. We're talking about their starting QB.

Based on that evidence, it is reasonable to assume he knew it was Brady.

Byrd doesn't wait for Brady to stop. They're not entangled in a block and Brady gives up and then Byrd moves in. It was a half-second block by Byrd who saw Brady wasn't involved with the play and almost immediately leaves after contact (seriously, time how long the two are engaged). Byrd then looks for an actual threat to block.

Looking at the replay, yeah it was a bad call by the refs. But that wasn't my point. I said it is selfish to even attempt to block Brady in that situation because no good is going to come from it.

Chidi...I love you brother...but you couldnt be more wrong about this.

You are putting the cart before the horse. You are saying that a player should not make a legal block against a quarterback BECAUSE the refs may make a bad call. And becaue they MIGHT make a bad call...it is selfish to make that LEGAL BLOCK.

That is simply terrible logic.

[Chidi29]

Yes, I know it's legal, but it if selfish to take the risk. Because what is the gain from it? That you can push the QB in a half-jog to the ground? That you're going to stop him from making the tackle, as if Brady was going to anyway.

There is nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing that.

[vader29]

What makes it laughable is Marsha going down like she was shot and the referee calling the penalty on the Bills player for "driving him into the ground", hell when we played 2 hand tap football as kids on the street we shoved harder than that and no one ever hit the ground like that.

[Chidi29]

Brady's smart for flopping. If you can draw the call, draw it. Definitely had an impact on the call.

[43Hitman]

Brady's smart for flopping. If you can draw the call, draw it. Definitely had an impact on the call.

And somehow that is supposed to be good for the game? I'm growing very weary of this "new" NFL. Its starting to look more like soccer than football these days, with receivers and quarterbacks flopping at every turn. Maybe we'll start seeing more 5' 7" 185 pounders play, that will be fun to watch. :sarcasm:

[Chidi29]

And somehow that is supposed to be good for the game? I'm growing very weary of this "new" NFL. Its starting to look more like soccer than football these days, with receivers and quarterbacks flopping at every turn. Maybe we'll start seeing more 5' 7" 185 pounders play, that will be fun to watch. :sarcasm:

Flopping has existed in every sport. If there's contact, someone is going to try and flop.

[Chidi29]

Heck, even though it doesn't mean a whole lot, I was playing NBA 2K12 the other day and it even has a "Flop" button.

[suitanim]

Is that hit a penalty?

No.

But it was called. And we all know the REAL reason why. I don't understand how anyone could possibly defend the league on this one.

Anyway, let me tell you what I would have done in that situation. I would have fucking LEVELED Brady, picked him up off the ground, slammed him helemet first into the ground and kept driving my legs. I would have TRIED to hurt that little fucking turd, who has done more to destroy this game by being a selfish, snotty, whining, cheating douchebag piece of garbage since he threw his first TD pass.

Then I would have gone online (since I'd obviously be suspended for the rest of the next 3 seasons) and started a website asking for donations from NFL fans for ending Brady's season and to pay my 450,000 dollar fine. And I would make one billion dollars from fans everywhere sick of that little faggoty piece of shit.

[tube517]

Is that hit a penalty?

No.

But it was called. And we all know the REAL reason why. I don't understand how anyone could possibly defend the league on this one.

Anyway, let me tell you what I would have done in that situation. I would have fucking LEVELED Brady, picked him up off the ground, slammed him helemet first into the ground and kept driving my legs. I would have TRIED to hurt that little fucking turd, who has done more to destroy this game by being a selfish, snotty, whining, cheating douchebag piece of garbage since he threw his first TD pass.

Then I would have gone online (since I'd obviously be suspended for the rest of the season) and started a website asking for donations from NFL fans for ending Brady's season and to pay my 450,000 dollar fine. And I would make one billion dollars from fans everywhere sick of that little faggoty piece of shit.

Are you saying you don't like Marsha? :rofl2: :lol:

[steelerdude15]

Are you saying you don't like Marsha? :rofl2: :lol:
I don't know.... seems like a lovely relationship to me. :chuckle:

[43Hitman]

Is that hit a penalty?

No.

But it was called. And we all know the REAL reason why. I don't understand how anyone could possibly defend the league on this one.

Anyway, let me tell you what I would have done in that situation. I would have fucking LEVELED Brady, picked him up off the ground, slammed him helemet first into the ground and kept driving my legs. I would have TRIED to hurt that little fucking turd, who has done more to destroy this game by being a selfish, snotty, whining, cheating douchebag piece of garbage since he threw his first TD pass.

Then I would have gone online (since I'd obviously be suspended for the rest of the next 3 seasons) and started a website asking for donations from NFL fans for ending Brady's season and to pay my 450,000 dollar fine. And I would make one billion dollars from fans everywhere sick of that little faggoty piece of shit.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel Suit. :chuckle:

[Dino 6 Rings]

Suit with the "Kill Him" post may be the best of the new year!

[BnG_Hevn]

You just don't get it. What the defensive player did was 100% LEGAL!!!!! It was a bullshit penalty. There was nothing even close to illegal about it.

What he is saying it that IF it can be EVEN SLIGHTLY misconstrued as a penalty, DON'T DO IT. PERIOD.

[suitanim]

I love the game of football.

I despise people or elements that ruin it.

Who besides Gaydy has done more to pussify the sport? Goodell?

If Roger Goodell was on fire, I wouldn't piss on him to put him out, but I would drop him way out in the middle of the Ocean, preferably in heavily shark infested waters with a little chum tossed along for good measure.

[fansince'76]

Is that hit a penalty?

No.

But it was called. And we all know the REAL reason why. I don't understand how anyone could possibly defend the league on this one.

Anyway, let me tell you what I would have done in that situation. I would have fucking LEVELED Brady, picked him up off the ground, slammed him helemet first into the ground and kept driving my legs. I would have TRIED to hurt that little fucking turd, who has done more to destroy this game by being a selfish, snotty, whining, cheating douchebag piece of garbage since he threw his first TD pass.

Then I would have gone online (since I'd obviously be suspended for the rest of the next 3 seasons) and started a website asking for donations from NFL fans for ending Brady's season and to pay my 450,000 dollar fine. And I would make one billion dollars from fans everywhere sick of that little faggoty piece of shit.

:rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2:

[LLT]

What he is saying it that IF it can be EVEN SLIGHTLY misconstrued as a penalty, DON'T DO IT. PERIOD.

This is what Goodell has done to the league.

His incompetence has created a scenerio in which refs have to err on the side of powderpuff football....while REAL players have to NOT make LEGAL plays because its could now be considered..."selfish".


BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is not the kind of football that I grew up with and I WILL NOT capitulate on the matter!!!!!!

[Chidi29]

As I've said in the past, it's commonplace for each generation of fans to think that the current commissioner is ruining the game. Especially when those fans are old enough to see previous regimes.

I'm sure when helmets became mandatory there were people who thought it would ruin the game.

When the close-line tackle was gotten rid of, I'm sure people were upset that Night Train Lane couldn't be as effective and that the league was "targeting" him.

When the headslap was axed, I'm sure people thought it was going to limit defensive lineman too much (like Deacon Jones)

When Rozelle suspended players, I'm sure Bengals fans were upset and felt targeted.

When the five yard chuck was created, specifically said by the league to open up offenses more, people were upset and thought it was "wussifying" the game and making it more offense-friendly.

Wne Taglibue fined players, I'm sure fans said the game was being ruined.

And here we are today.

Does anyone else see the pattern?

[LLT]

As I've said in the past, it's commonplace for each generation of fans to think that the current commissioner is ruining the game. Especially when those fans are old enough to see previous regimes.

I'm sure when helmets became mandatory there were people who thought it would ruin the game.

When the close-line tackle was gotten rid of, I'm sure people were upset that Night Train Lane couldn't be as effective and that the league was "targeting" him.

When the headslap was axed, I'm sure people thought it was going to limit defensive lineman too much (like Deacon Jones)

When Rozelle suspended players, I'm sure Bengals fans were upset and felt targeted.

When the five yard chuck was created, specifically said by the league to open up offenses more, people were upset and thought it was "wussifying" the game and making it more offense-friendly.

Wne Taglibue fined players, I'm sure fans said the game was being ruined.

And here we are today.

Does anyone else see the pattern?


Yes there is a pattern. Let me lay it out for you.

1) Goodell can fine a player for honoring our troops....but tastelessly used our troops to stop the boos and catcalls at the last draft.
2) Goodell can fine a player for helmet to helmet contact....but refuses to mandate the newer/safer helmets.
3) Goddell can claim that he is "reforming" the NFL for safety reasons....then pushes for two more games.
4) Goodell can claim that Rush Limbaugh shouldnt be an owner because of of his "devisive language"....yet had nothing to say about Fergie being an owner even though her lyrics have promoted sexual abuse of women, used the n-word, and promote drug use.
5) Goodell can fine a player for compassionately letting his wife know (by phone) that he is alright...but lets two ass-clown coaches compare who has the bigger penis on national TV without reprocussion.
6) Goodell can preach his snakeoil "fairness and player safety” plan....yet he votes against set pensions for retired players.
7) Goodell can allow "Big Hit" photos and videos to be sold for profit....while fining players for those same hits.
8) Goodell can summon Aqib Talib to his office over his behavior towards women....while allowing convicted sexual assault criminal Marv Albert to head a broadcast team.
9) Goodell can claim he represents the fan....while flexing game times (for television revenue) without reimbursement to those fans who missed part (or all) of a game due to a flight conflict, they had scheduled months before.
10) Goodell fines the Patriots for Spygate...then says that he "doesnt believe" the cheating helped them win championships. All after destroying the evidence, of course.



Yes...there most certainly is a pattern. Goodell is a hypocritical POS....who is more worried about the bottom dollar then he is about the players or the fans.

[NCSteeler]

It's simple to me, he twice pursued the play. I couldn't give goat flock if he was 10 yards from the ball carrier, he was making a clear attempt to be part of the play, which makes him legal. He knows damn well if chases a ball carrier he is likely to be laid out, quite possibly even his motive in this situation. If he doesn't want to be hit, he can just stand still , stay back out of the play like a lot of other QBs

[suitanim]

As I've said in the past, it's commonplace for each generation of fans to think that the current commissioner is ruining the game. Especially when those fans are old enough to see previous regimes.

I'm sure when helmets became mandatory there were people who thought it would ruin the game.

When the close-line tackle was gotten rid of, I'm sure people were upset that Night Train Lane couldn't be as effective and that the league was "targeting" him.

When the headslap was axed, I'm sure people thought it was going to limit defensive lineman too much (like Deacon Jones)

When Rozelle suspended players, I'm sure Bengals fans were upset and felt targeted.

When the five yard chuck was created, specifically said by the league to open up offenses more, people were upset and thought it was "wussifying" the game and making it more offense-friendly.

Wne Taglibue fined players, I'm sure fans said the game was being ruined.

And here we are today.

Does anyone else see the pattern?
Nope, sorry kiddo. You're young and I admire your attention to detail, but I have NEVER complained ONCE in the past about the commish of the NFL, and I lived through a bit of Roselle and Tagliabue. In fact, I can't recall a single knowledgeable friend or acquaintance of mine having a complaint before now, either. This is different. And I know about it in a way you never can, because I experienced it personally and contemporarily...so, nice try, but try again. That dog don't hunt...

[fansince'76]

Nope, sorry kiddo. You're young and I admire your attention to detail, but I have NEVER complained ONCE in the past about the commish of the NFL, and I lived through a bit of Roselle and Tagliabue. In fact, I can't recall a single knowledgeable friend or acquaintance of mine having a complaint before now, either. This is different. And I know about it in a way you never can, because I experienced it personally and contemporarily...so, nice try, but try again. That dog don't hunt...

Being approximately the same age you are (and probably even a little older), I certainly can't recall Rozelle or Tagliabue being such a focal point of league news (for essentially all the wrong reasons) as often as Goodell is. Maybe part of that has to do with the ubiquitous 24-hour news cycle and the Internet, but I don't remember Rozelle or Tagliabue pissing off so many people as often as Goodell does.

[suitanim]

Being approximately the same age you are (and probably even a little older), I certainly can't recall Rozelle or Tagliabue being such a focal point of league news (for essentially all the wrong reasons) as often as Goodell is. Maybe part of that has to do with the ubiquitous 24-hour news cycle and the Internet, but I don't remember Rozelle or Tagliabue pissing off so many people as often as Goodell does.

Rozelle, for all intents and purposes, orchestrated the NFL usurping the MLB as "America's Pastime". Tagliabue just played the role of regent, which was all that was needed. Goodell could have taken that same road, but he basically decided he needed "Hope and Change" and to "Fundamentally transform the nature of the NFL". That has worked out just as piss-poorly as the other idiot who claimed such things.

If it ain't broke, please don't fix it. And what Goodell did was the equivalent of Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor fixing things.

[fansince'76]

Rozelle, for all intents and purposes, orchestrated the NFL usurping the MLB as "America's Pastime". Tagliabue just played the role of regent, which was all that was needed. Goodell could have taken that same road, but he basically decided he needed "Hope and Change" and to "Fundamentally transform the nature of the NFL". That has worked out just as piss-poorly as the other idiot who claimed such things.

If it ain't broke, please don't fix it. And what Goodell did was the equivalent of Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor fixing things.

Oh, I agree as far as Goodell goes. IMO, the league has fundamentally declined as a game under his stewardship, but it wasn't always roses under Rozelle and Tagliabue either. I remember the '82 and '87 strikes vividly, and I recall Tagliabue running the league much like Marvin Lewis has run the Bengals in the past as far as discipline goes (next to none). I think Goodell had really good intentions at first, and I actually applauded his efforts to crack down on the Chris Henrys and Pacman Joneses of the league at the beginning of his tenure, but he has since overreached. WAY overreached.

[Chidi29]

Yes there is a pattern. Let me lay it out for you.

1) Goodell can fine a player for honoring our troops....but tastelessly used our troops to stop the boos and catcalls at the last draft.
2) Goodell can fine a player for helmet to helmet contact....but refuses to mandate the newer/safer helmets.
3) Goddell can claim that he is "reforming" the NFL for safety reasons....then pushes for two more games.
4) Goodell can claim that Rush Limbaugh shouldnt be an owner because of of his "devisive language"....yet had nothing to say about Fergie being an owner even though her lyrics have promoted sexual abuse of women, used the n-word, and promote drug use.
5) Goodell can fine a player for compassionately letting his wife know (by phone) that he is alright...but lets two ass-clown coaches compare who has the bigger penis on national TV without reprocussion.
6) Goodell can preach his snakeoil "fairness and player safety” plan....yet he votes against set pensions for retired players.
7) Goodell can allow "Big Hit" photos and videos to be sold for profit....while fining players for those same hits.
8) Goodell can summon Aqib Talib to his office over his behavior towards women....while allowing convicted sexual assault criminal Marv Albert to head a broadcast team.
9) Goodell can claim he represents the fan....while flexing game times (for television revenue) without reimbursement to those fans who missed part (or all) of a game due to a flight conflict, they had scheduled months before.
10) Goodell fines the Patriots for Spygate...then says that he "doesnt believe" the cheating helped them win championships. All after destroying the evidence, of course.



Yes...there most certainly is a pattern. Goodell is a hypocritical POS....who is more worried about the bottom dollar then he is about the players or the fans.

That had nothing to do with what I posted. Completely irrelevant.

Yes, some of those things you mentioned I completely agree with and are Goodell's fault. But you're telling me that the previous commissioners were squeaky clean? That they were never hypocritical or at the very least, contradicted themselves at times. Never? They went through the game without any problems, just smooth sailing?

And some of those things I would disgaree with or think you're oversimplfying the situation (helmet safety, 18 game schedule, among others).

You don't think there were hits that weren't fined for back in Taglibue's days (despite some players getting fined - see Greg Lloyd's comments on how upset he was about it)?

To me, it's a product of what Eric said. The constant media attention magnifies those flaws tenfold compared to the past.

To be honest, it's unfair to Goodell. He can't win and never really stood a chance.

[Chidi29]

Nope, sorry kiddo. You're young and I admire your attention to detail, but I have NEVER complained ONCE in the past about the commish of the NFL, and I lived through a bit of Roselle and Tagliabue. In fact, I can't recall a single knowledgeable friend or acquaintance of mine having a complaint before now, either. This is different. And I know about it in a way you never can, because I experienced it personally and contemporarily...so, nice try, but try again. That dog don't hunt...

Andecotedal evidence isn't really the way to go here because I wasn't calling out any one person. I'm saying on the whole, that has probably been said before. Heck, I posted the quote Mel Morgan gave after his suspension in the mid-70s. Almost identical to what a player would say today.

It's just like any older generation thinking the one they grew up in was "the right one" and the way it's "supposed" to be. That applies to anything, family values, music, overall culture.

[Chidi29]

Let's do a quick illustration of how the 24 hour media cycle has an affect on how we perceive the commissioners. Here, regarding suspensions.

Go to Google and type in "Mel Morgan suspension". Look how many relevant links there are to the Bengals DB getting suspended on the first page. I saw two. On the next two pages, there was one more article, a newspaper article in pdf form.

Now Google "James Harrison suspension". On the first three pages, they're all about the Steeler. Naturally, of course, I wouldn't expect anything different.

But it shows that back then, even in an era with TVs and newspapers, information was a lot more scarce and only came from a few sources. Not a million people being able to rip Rozelle apart from every angle.

[Chidi29]

Oh, I agree as far as Goodell goes. IMO, the league has fundamentally declined as a game under his stewardship, but it wasn't always roses under Rozelle and Tagliabue either. I remember the '82 and '87 strikes vividly, and I recall Tagliabue running the league much like Marvin Lewis has run the Bengals in the past as far as discipline goes (next to none). I think Goodell had really good intentions at first, and I actually applauded his efforts to crack down on the Chris Henrys and Pacman Joneses of the league at the beginning of his tenure, but he has since overreached. WAY overreached.

I'm pretty sure NFL fans would've burned Goodell's house down if the league missed any regular season games.

In history, we've seen those strikes (in a short timespan, mind you) in football, World Series canceled in baseball, entire seasons lost in hockey, and chunks of seasons lost in basketball. For Goodell, we've lost one preseason game.

Not too shabby. But he won't get much credit for that.

Only blame.

[suitanim]

Andecotedal evidence isn't really the way to go here because I wasn't calling out any one person. I'm saying on the whole, that has probably been said before. Heck, I posted the quote Mel Morgan gave after his suspension in the mid-70s. Almost identical to what a player would say today.

It's just like any older generation thinking the one they grew up in was "the right one" and the way it's "supposed" to be. That applies to anything, family values, music, overall culture.

Anecdotal evidence, or eyewitness testimony?

[Chidi29]

Anecdotal evidence, or eyewitness testimony?

Either or, it isn't enough to base an argument off of.

[LLT]

. But you're telling me that the previous commissioners were squeaky clean? .

Really?.....please show me where I said that.

Debate as much as you wish....but debate fairly and dont put words in anyones mouth.

[LLT]

Let's do a quick illustration of how the 24 hour media cycle has an affect on how we perceive the commissioners. Here, regarding suspensions.

Go to Google and type in "Mel Morgan suspension". Look how many relevant links there are to the Bengals DB getting suspended on the first page. I saw two. On the next two pages, there was one more article, a newspaper article in pdf form.

Now Google "James Harrison suspension". On the first three pages, they're all about the Steeler. Naturally, of course, I wouldn't expect anything different.

But it shows that back then, even in an era with TVs and newspapers, information was a lot more scarce and only came from a few sources. Not a million people being able to rip Rozelle apart from every angle.

You are confusing culpability with press coverage.

Goodell is guilty of gross hypocrisy and incompetence...not because he lives in the internet age, but because he IS hypocritical and incompentant.

[suitanim]

Either or, it isn't enough to base an argument off of.

Wrong again. And you're actually doling out the rope you're hanging yourself with here. Your own contention is that Goodell receives this criticism based on the news cycle, availability of information, the internet, etc, etc...however, I'VE been posting on the interwebs since the mid-90's, and I know for a fact that many people here have been along for that same ride...LLT and Marianne for sure have been on SN "back in the day", among others. There have also been pervasive sports news reporting stations on radio and TV, all over the internet, as well as chat rooms and the like, so it's not like instant information is something brand new.

I've posted on CBS Sportsline boards, Rats boards, Jets boards, Pats boards, Browns boards, and several Steelers boards, and have never seen anything remotely approaching the animosity for Goodell directed at any other commissioner. In fact, I can't recall any criticism at all for any NFL commissioner. SN, for one, is a huge board, was connected to boards from all the other NFL teams, and had posters all over the World (literally) so at some point that kind of preponderance of opinion ceases to be mere "anecdotal evidence" and legitimately forms a solid base of sampled opinion. There was no "golden era" of NFL commissioners (although if there was anything like it, it was during the Pete Rozelle regime), so your contention that we are all pining back to some better vanished era/grass was greener thing is an empty argument. Goodell gets heaps of negative attention directed his way for one reason, and one reason only, and that's that he has completely earned it.

[Chidi29]

Really?.....please show me where I said that.

Debate as much as you wish....but debate fairly and dont put words in anyones mouth.

Then feel free to create a list of the flaws of the other commissioners.

[Chidi29]

Wrong again. And you're actually doling out the rope you're hanging yourself with here. Your own contention is that Goodell receives this criticism based on the news cycle, availability of information, the internet, etc, etc...however, I'VE been posting on the interwebs since the mid-90's, and I know for a fact that many people here have been along for that same ride...LLT and Marianne for sure have been on SN "back in the day", among others. There have also been pervasive sports news reporting stations on radio and TV, all over the internet, as well as chat rooms and the like, so it's not like instant information is something brand new.

I've posted on CBS Sportsline boards, Rats boards, Jets boards, Pats boards, Browns boards, and several Steelers boards, and have never seen anything remotely approaching the animosity for Goodell directed at any other commissioner. In fact, I can't recall any criticism at all for any NFL commissioner. SN, for one, is a huge board, was connected to boards from all the other NFL teams, and had posters all over the World (literally) so at some point that kind of preponderance of opinion ceases to be mere "anecdotal evidence" and legitimately forms a solid base of sampled opinion. There was no "golden era" of NFL commissioners (although if there was anything like it, it was during the Pete Rozelle regime), so your contention that we are all pining back to some better vanished era/grass was greener thing is an empty argument. Goodell gets heaps of negative attention directed his way for one reason, and one reason only, and that's that he has completely earned it.

The other commissioners were the ones were pioneered the same thing Goodell is doing now (changing rules, increasing player safety, fines, suspensions). These aren't new things for Goodell, things he's inventing or trying out for the first time.

Greg Lloyd was fined numerous times throughout his career. There weren't Steelers' fans who weren't upset about it?

When I see very similar events occuring but totally different outcomes (We love Rozelle, Taglibue wasn't bad either, Goodell is Hitler) there has to be some outside influence. Be it the news cycle or time blurring the screw-ups the other commissioners had.

[X-Terminator]

Is that hit a penalty?

No.

But it was called. And we all know the REAL reason why. I don't understand how anyone could possibly defend the league on this one.

Anyway, let me tell you what I would have done in that situation. I would have fucking LEVELED Brady, picked him up off the ground, slammed him helemet first into the ground and kept driving my legs. I would have TRIED to hurt that little fucking turd, who has done more to destroy this game by being a selfish, snotty, whining, cheating douchebag piece of garbage since he threw his first TD pass.

Then I would have gone online (since I'd obviously be suspended for the rest of the next 3 seasons) and started a website asking for donations from NFL fans for ending Brady's season and to pay my 450,000 dollar fine. And I would make one billion dollars from fans everywhere sick of that little faggoty piece of shit.

Post of the year right here, and it's only January 4.

[X-Terminator]

And in all fairness, the pussy rules to protect QBs started under Tagliabue, and was backed by the late Gene Upshaw. That's really the only thing I can recall that he did that fundamentally changed how the game was played. Goodell has just taken that ball and ran it to the Moon and back.

[suitanim]

Let's put that QB rule in perspective. If you recall (I can and do), there was a time when the average QB was about 6'1" and weighed 200 lbs. There were concerns that with the ever-increasing disparity between the 320 lb defensive linemen and the 200 lb QB's that someone was going to get killed. So the NFL knee-jerked a bit and put some protections in place. But it was arguably not necessary because the game evolved, and bigger QB's became the norm. Daunte Culpepper weighed more then all but about FIVE offensive linemen who are in the HOF (that data may be a little dated now), so the contention that MORE needs to be done to protect QB's now is, IMO, garbage in/garbage out. The game takes care of itself and doesn't need too much massaging. Goodell is a POS because he is going too far, and is also a huge hypocrite.

Besides the 18 game season, another example of his hypocrisy is scheduling all these division match-ups in week 17. That is purposefully to ensure starters aren't rested, and everybody plays all game. It didn't used to be that way. I'm sorry, but the most effective way to protect players is to, in any way, allow them to play less thereby diminishing their exposure to injury.

Finally, concerning fines to players in the past, I recall Joey Porter getting fined, Greg Lloyd getting fined, et al, but it was never that big of a deal because it wasn't prevalent, it wasn't really harmful, and it was almost a badge of honor. I also don't remember people even getting fined for things that aren't even penalties, the league wasn't as hypocritical, and there weren't lists of 10+ players getting fined for nonsense every week.

Goodell is the worst NFL commissioner ever, and the second worst commissioner in all of sports (Stern is s still a bigger asshole). Goodell gets this distinction, again, for one reason only: He has completely EARNED it.

[LLT]

Then feel free to create a list of the flaws of the other commissioners.

That is a weak arguement.

If we were discussing serial killers...and I mentioned all the murders initiated by Jeffrey Dahmer...it doesnt mean that I think John Wayne Gasey is "squeeky clean".

Dahmer can and should be judged by his individual actions outside of the comparison to others. Goodell can and should be judged by his individual actions.

Again.....if you wish to debate this....do so in an intellegent and fair manner.

[Chidi29]

That is a weak arguement.

If we were discussing serial killers...and I mentioned all the murders initiated by Jeffrey Dahmer...it doesnt mean that I think John Wayne Gasey is "squeeky clean".

Dahmer can and should be judged by his individual actions outside of the comparison to others. Goodell can and should be judged by his individual actions.

Again.....if you wish to debate this....do so in an intellegent and fair manner.

I think you're missing my point. All I'm saying is that the other commissioners did similar things to Goodell and I'm sure at the time, not everyone was happy with them. But because time has blurred it, it tends to be forgotten about. The past commissioners weren't perfect and neither is Goodell.

[LLT]

I think you're missing my point. All I'm saying is that the other commissioners did similar things to Goodell and I'm sure at the time, not everyone was happy with them. But because time has blurred it, it tends to be forgotten about. The past commissioners weren't perfect and neither is Goodell.
'
...and you are missing the point that NO ONE is saying that the other commisioners were perfect. The point is the Goodell is EXCEPTIONALLY bad. Based on his hypocrisy, his incompetance, and his being in the back pocket of the owners.

The DIFFERENCE between Goodell and the past commisioners is that they understood that the health of the NFL relied on a three tier level....Owners...Players...Fans. Goodell has ALWAYS been a bottom dollar commisioner...which means he represents the owners at the expense of the players and fans. That is the root cause of his incompetence.

The NFL is still riding a wave of popularity...but all of us see small cracks in the wall. How many of us used to watch virtually ANY game that was on television? How many of us have now resorted to simply backing our team and no longer watch as many games?

I am as big a fan as anyone...and I have to admit that I have actually missed some of the Steelers games this year for reasons that I would have NEVER missed a game for in the past. I will make this prediction. Within two years there will be storylines about the decline in NFL viewership....and at that point maybe you will understand the level at which Goodell is ruining this game.

[suitanim]

The point is that Goodell is ruining the game, whereas his predecessors did not. An analogy would be Rozelle versus Goodell on the issue of cars running over too many squirrels. Rozelle would have said "OK, let's make sure people know to look out for squirrels on the raod, and hopefully not as many will gte run over".

Goodell would outlaw tires.

I don't understand how anyone could continue to defend this guy, unless it's just a case of people simply not being able to admit when they are landing on the wrong side of an issue...

[Chidi29]

And in all fairness, the pussy rules to protect QBs started under Tagliabue, and was backed by the late Gene Upshaw. That's really the only thing I can recall that he did that fundamentally changed how the game was played. Goodell has just taken that ball and ran it to the Moon and back.

Nearly everything Goodell has done was started by someone else. He is just increasing it just as the previous commissioners have done, especially regarding player conduct and safety.

[Chidi29]

'
...and you are missing the point that NO ONE is saying that the other commisioners were perfect. The point is the Goodell is EXCEPTIONALLY bad. Based on his hypocrisy, his incompetance, and his being in the back pocket of the owners.

The DIFFERENCE between Goodell and the past commisioners is that they understood that the health of the NFL relied on a three tier level....Owners...Players...Fans. Goodell has ALWAYS been a bottom dollar commisioner...which means he represents the owners at the expense of the players and fans. That is the root cause of his incompetence.

The NFL is still riding a wave of popularity...but all of us see small cracks in the wall. How many of us used to watch virtually ANY game that was on television? How many of us have now resorted to simply backing our team and no longer watch as many games?

I am as big a fan as anyone...and I have to admit that I have actually missed some of the Steelers games this year for reasons that I would have NEVER missed a game for in the past. I will make this prediction. Within two years there will be storylines about the decline in NFL viewership....and at that point maybe you will understand the level at which Goodell is ruining this game.

I have to disagree with you there Perry. Goodell is running a business and is looking to make money, no question about that, but it's not as if that's the only thing he cares about. Or he would have mandated an 18 game schedule (because he had the power to do so without the consent of the union). Or he wouldn't have given a bigger pension to retired players (I don't know what all went into the process and how much, if any, kicking and fighting there was by the league because I saw you mention it negatively. But they did get a huge increase).

[fansince'76]

The NFL is still riding a wave of popularity...but all of us see small cracks in the wall. How many of us used to watch virtually ANY game that was on television? How many of us have now resorted to simply backing our team and no longer watch as many games?

Right here!

[Chidi29]

The point is that Goodell is ruining the game, whereas his predecessors did not. An analogy would be Rozelle versus Goodell on the issue of cars running over too many squirrels. Rozelle would have said "OK, let's make sure people know to look out for squirrels on the raod, and hopefully not as many will gte run over".

Goodell would outlaw tires.

I don't understand how anyone could continue to defend this guy, unless it's just a case of people simply not being able to admit when they are landing on the wrong side of an issue...

I'm been critical of Goodell in the past. I think there is still a long ways to go with his changes/crackdown of player safety. I have no problem being on the anti-Goodell side when appropiate.

Like I've said before, you guys are allowed to be anti-Goodell 99% of the time but those who are alleged to be pro Goodell the same amount can't.

[Chidi29]

'
...and you are missing the point that NO ONE is saying that the other commisioners were perfect. The point is the Goodell is EXCEPTIONALLY bad. Based on his hypocrisy, his incompetance, and his being in the back pocket of the owners.

The DIFFERENCE between Goodell and the past commisioners is that they understood that the health of the NFL relied on a three tier level....Owners...Players...Fans. Goodell has ALWAYS been a bottom dollar commisioner...which means he represents the owners at the expense of the players and fans. That is the root cause of his incompetence.

The NFL is still riding a wave of popularity...but all of us see small cracks in the wall. How many of us used to watch virtually ANY game that was on television? How many of us have now resorted to simply backing our team and no longer watch as many games?

I am as big a fan as anyone...and I have to admit that I have actually missed some of the Steelers games this year for reasons that I would have NEVER missed a game for in the past. I will make this prediction. Within two years there will be storylines about the decline in NFL viewership....and at that point maybe you will understand the level at which Goodell is ruining this game.

This season, with the lockout and crackdown, had the second most viewers since 1989.

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20120105/APC0505/120105083/NFL-ratings-flying-high-over-17-5-million-average-viewership-per-game

Who knows what the ratings will look like in two years as your prediction claims, but right now, their sky high.

[steelerdude15]

This season, with the lockout and crackdown, had the second most viewers since 1989.

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20120105/APC0505/120105083/NFL-ratings-flying-high-over-17-5-million-average-viewership-per-game

Who knows what the ratings will look like in two years as your prediction claims, but right now, their sky high.

Too bad the NFL isn't the same is going to a pass happy league. I miss the NFL where they could play defense and hit someone and it would be okay.

[Chidi29]

Let's put that QB rule in perspective. If you recall (I can and do), there was a time when the average QB was about 6'1" and weighed 200 lbs. There were concerns that with the ever-increasing disparity between the 320 lb defensive linemen and the 200 lb QB's that someone was going to get killed. So the NFL knee-jerked a bit and put some protections in place. But it was arguably not necessary because the game evolved, and bigger QB's became the norm. Daunte Culpepper weighed more then all but about FIVE offensive linemen who are in the HOF (that data may be a little dated now), so the contention that MORE needs to be done to protect QB's now is, IMO, garbage in/garbage out. The game takes care of itself and doesn't need too much massaging. Goodell is a POS because he is going too far, and is also a huge hypocrite.

Besides the 18 game season, another example of his hypocrisy is scheduling all these division match-ups in week 17. That is purposefully to ensure starters aren't rested, and everybody plays all game. It didn't used to be that way. I'm sorry, but the most effective way to protect players is to, in any way, allow them to play less thereby diminishing their exposure to injury.

Finally, concerning fines to players in the past, I recall Joey Porter getting fined, Greg Lloyd getting fined, et al, but it was never that big of a deal because it wasn't prevalent, it wasn't really harmful, and it was almost a badge of honor. I also don't remember people even getting fined for things that aren't even penalties, the league wasn't as hypocritical, and there weren't lists of 10+ players getting fined for nonsense every week.

Goodell is the worst NFL commissioner ever, and the second worst commissioner in all of sports (Stern is s still a bigger asshole). Goodell gets this distinction, again, for one reason only: He has completely EARNED it.

Goodell also has to deal with Congress coming to him and basically demanding why concussions are so rampant across the league and what the league is do to about them. I'm sure the NFLPA has echoed similar sentiments. That isn't an easy situation to deal with and people expect Goodell to be handle it flawlessly.

Goodell is in a no-win situation. And your example illustrates that.

If Goodell doesn't change the Week 17 schedule, people complain about teams being able to rest their starters and ruining the competitive spirit of the game (think of all the times the Colts rested their starters).

If he does change it, then he isn't doing enough for player safety.

If he doesn't crackdown on hits, he has a bunch of legal matters in his face about concussions in the league.

If he does crackdown, the fans hate him.

That's my point. Goodell is not perfect, far from it, but I'm not going to flame him every step of the way because he is dealing with an almost impossible task.

[The Patriot]

It's all about the money now. Once you're a big name quarterback, nobody can really touch you because you're a walking crowd-pleaser. I'm a huge Pats homer, and even I think the refs were told to make sure the Bills didn't rough up Brady before the playoffs (based on that call). It's the same with players like Kobe in the NBA.

Of course... I don't despise Brady like probably most of you. He was playing 10 years ago, when the rules were at least better than they are now, and playing well. Everyone has to deal with these new rules. Our secondary was penalized at least 60 yards against the Bills on sunday. Pats defense isn't even allowed to hit hard to make up for its lack of natural talent. They can only watch offenses move up and down the field and wait for the QB to make a mistake. At least your defense hasn't become a total joke, despite all the fines, suspensions, and personal foul penalties.

[O'Malley]

It's all about the money now. Once you're a big name quarterback, nobody can really touch you because you're a walking crowd-pleaser. I'm a huge Pats homer, and even I think the refs were told to make sure the Bills didn't rough up Brady before the playoffs (based on that call). It's the same with players like Kobe in the NBA.

Of course... I don't despise Brady like probably most of you. He was playing 10 years ago, when the rules were at least better than they are now, and playing well. Everyone has to deal with these new rules. Our secondary was penalized at least 60 yards against the Bills on sunday. Pats defense isn't even allowed to hit hard to make up for its lack of natural talent. They can only watch offenses move up and down the field and wait for the QB to make a mistake. At least your defense hasn't become a total joke, despite all the fines, suspensions, and personal foul penalties.

Unless your Ben Roethlisberger... Hit him at will, low, high it doesn't matter...

[fansince'76]

At least your defense hasn't become a total joke, despite all the fines, suspensions, and personal foul penalties.

It's getting there. That's the problem, and it's league-wide.

[The Patriot]

It's getting there. That's the problem, and it's league-wide.

Yeah. Hopefully the owners will try to reel it in a little after this year. I mean, this can't be their vision of the NFL...

[NCSteeler]

Without jumping into this debate too deeply, I would just say my biggest problem with Goodell and a problem I see other friends mention, is his complete lack of consistency . I'm not a conspiracy guy, I don't think the refs or the commish have it in for any one team, but when there is in consistency you leave your self open to that kind of criticism and it will eventually take a toll on the league. I also wouldn't judge the health of the league on ratings, I know many people who have football on because it's whats on, I would judge the health more by sales of merchandise.

Sidenote..Also notice even the London Bucs have started push back on the leagues agenda of a European team and they were always the best candidate because they also own a London soccer team

[Chidi29]

Too bad the NFL isn't the same is going to a pass happy league. I miss the NFL where they could play defense and hit someone and it would be okay.

That's been happening for years. From innovations to rule changes, like the five yard chuck back in the 70s, they've been saying it for years.

And the game is still standing.

[steelerdude15]

That's been happening for years. From innovations to rule changes, like the five yard chuck back in the 70s, they've been saying it for years.

And the game is still standing.

Yes, of course the Mel Blount rule. I feel like you can't hit a QB anywhere now without getting in trouble and yes, I know you still can. I personally like tough defense and running the ball, but that's me.

[Chidi29]

Yes, of course the Mel Blount rule. I feel like you can't hit a QB anywhere now without getting in trouble and yes, I know you still can. I personally like tough defense and running the ball, but that's me.

That goes into your comment of the NFL being too pass happy and effectively ruining the league. Heck, the league came out and said the rule was in place to jumpstart offenses. Think there wasn't outrage from fans then?

[steelreserve]

Goodell also has to deal with Congress coming to him and basically demanding why concussions are so rampant across the league and what the league is do to about them. I'm sure the NFLPA has echoed similar sentiments. That isn't an easy situation to deal with and people expect Goodell to be handle it flawlessly.

Goodell is in a no-win situation. And your example illustrates that.

If Goodell doesn't change the Week 17 schedule, people complain about teams being able to rest their starters and ruining the competitive spirit of the game (think of all the times the Colts rested their starters).

If he does change it, then he isn't doing enough for player safety.

If he doesn't crackdown on hits, he has a bunch of legal matters in his face about concussions in the league.

If he does crackdown, the fans hate him.

That's my point. Goodell is not perfect, far from it, but I'm not going to flame him every step of the way because he is dealing with an almost impossible task.

What are you talking about, impossible task. Boo-hoo, poor Roger, he has it so rough.

Listen, every other commissioner in every other major sport has dealt with a crisis as hard or harder than this - the difference is that no one else has fucked it up so badly. Baseball has steroids and competitive balance to deal with. The NBA has competitive balance plus the fact that every single one of its players smokes weed every day, including Jimmer Fredette. The NHL has money problems because it expanded too fast, plus its own concussion scare. None of those commissioners are very popular either, but at the end of the day, they deal with their problems and nobody says, "wow, that guy is really ruining the whole game."

Take Bud Selig. Bud Selig is probably as hated as a baseball commissioner has ever been, and he's been through a scandal 10 times worse than the concussion thing in football. Not "might face legal problems." Not "might have the fans calling for his head." You think Goodell has problems, baseball went ALL THE FUCKING WAY with problems. People were getting sent to jail and hauled in front of Congress. Fans of the sport had to come to grips with the fact that the whole past decade was a complete joke. But you know what? He came out of it several years later with the game still intact. He didn't change the strike zone, or move the outfield fences back 50 feet, or any other stupid knee-jerk reaction for the media. Baseball is still fundamentally the same game, no matter whether Manny Ramirez is still juicing or the Yankees still have more money than the A's.

That's the difference. Every other sport, including the NFL under other leadership, they have a crisis, they do something unpopular to deal with it, but they get it over with and eventually the game rises above it on its own merits. Goodell has dealt with the concussion issue with all the skill of a guy chasing a bus. The thing starts out with a big media splash on ESPN Concussion Sunday, and what's his response? Another big media splash, followed by another one the next week, and the next week, and the next week. Does he appoint a committee of medical experts to look into it? Does he work with the players' union? Does he increase the funding for the retired players' disability fund? Does he ask the players what they think? No - he hands out fines blindly and gives the media more to chatter about for another week, then does it again 7 days later just like clockwork. He changes the rules unilaterally and gives the media more fuel for big splashy stories. And all the while, the underlying problem is still there because his fines and rules haven't done shit, and behind the scenes where it matters, he's fighting tooth and nail against increasing the retirement fund; he's burying his head in the sand about better equipment; and who the hell knows what the medical experts think, beyond "concussions bad." So, back to the fines and the media splash every week.

Every other commissioner with two brain cells to rub together: "We'll assemble a special committee of independent experts and address it this offseason." Not Goodell - just thrash around blindly and try to fix it by berating your own players and making up new rules as you go along (the Colt McCoy rule of having an independent doctor on the sideline just the latest knee-jerk example). It's almost like the he thinks ESPN is going to solve his problems for him if he just creates enough hoopla. The guy is a fucking kid getting schooled at Street Fighter and mashing buttons hoping he hits a lucky combo. Only every move he makes destroys a REAL sport a little more.

THAT'S why he's the most hated commissioner in sports, possibly ever. And why I don't have any sympathy or even empathy for him at all. He brought it all on himself, and he richly deserves every single atom of it.

[suitanim]

^^^ good post ^^^

BUT Stern has fucked up worse. Remember refs betting on games? They let things stand, when a REAL commissioner would have had the balls to just write-off the whole season. Goodell did the same thing when he burned the evidence with the Cheatriots. Wins and titles should have been stripped, but anything hard ain't worth doing to lumps of shit like Stern and Goodell...

[fansince'76]

BUT Stern has fucked up worse. Remember refs betting on games? They let things stand, when a REAL commissioner would have had the balls to just write-off the whole season.

Game 6, 2002 Western Conference Finals. People who continue to bitch and moan about SB XL being "fixed" by crooked officiating seriously need to dig up a replay of that game. THAT was crooked officiating...

[suitanim]

The problem with what the Pats did and what the refs did is that it created a cascading effect. Even just ONE game (especially in the NFL) where the outcome was effected by their cheating for all intents and purposes trashed the whole season. Even teams who only won 3 games are indirectly effected due to draft picks, teams who may have made the playoffs may have missed, etc, etc...it's a HUGE entangled cluster-fuck, and he did the easiest thing possible (Goodell): He acted like it never happened and threw the evidence in the trash. I can tell you at that particular moment I knew he was a corrupt POS. He's done nothing to dissuade me of that notions since, but has done a butt ton more that's almost as bad.

[fansince'76]

The problem with what the Pats did and what the refs did is that it created a cascading effect. Even just ONE game (especially in the NFL) where the outcome was effected by their cheating for all intents and purposes trashed the whole season. Even teams who only won 3 games are indirectly effected due to draft picks, teams who may have made the playoffs may have missed, etc, etc...it's a HUGE entangled cluster-fuck, and he did the easiest thing possible (Goodell): He acted like it never happened and threw the evidence in the trash. I can tell you at that particular moment I knew he was a corrupt POS. He's done nothing to dissuade me of that notions since, but has done a butt ton more that's almost as bad.

I agree. Goodell should have went Kenesaw Mountain Landis and banned people from the league for life. Namely Belichick. But, much easier to destroy evidence and "Officer Barbrady" the whole thing...

[steelerdude15]

Game 6, 2002 Western Conference Finals. People who continue to bitch and moan about SB XL being "fixed" by crooked officiating seriously need to dig up a replay of that game. THAT was crooked officiating...

Just to let everyone know, Ben's touchdown WAS a touchdown. Even if Ben didn't score that TD and the Seahawks did score the TD in which the WR pushed off the corner, which you're not allowed to do, the Steelers still would have won seventeen to fourteen.

[tube517]

Just to let everyone know, Ben's touchdown WAS a touchdown. Even if Ben didn't score that TD and the Seahawks did score the TD in which the WR pushed off the corner, which you're not allowed to do, the Steelers still would have won seventeen to fourteen.

But the FWP 75 yd TD run was a conspiracy against the Seasquawks because Da Stealers paid Da Refs. :chuckle:

[fansince'76]

Just to let everyone know, Ben's touchdown WAS a touchdown. Even if Ben didn't score that TD and the Seahawks did score the TD in which the WR pushed off the corner, which you're not allowed to do, the Steelers still would have won seventeen to fourteen.

The problem with that game, in a nutshell, is that it was a VERY poorly played game by BOTH teams. The calls against the Seahawks, while close, WERE correct, with the exception of the one on Hasselbeck. But because it was such a shitty game from a football standpoint, people chose to harp on, and continue to harp on, the officiating.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vURI_Cz-p6s&lc=WWvaCXGZ1jVFYIDANAQb1XSdD80BZv7I-irQfAFX0A0&feature=inbox

That's a pushoff. Pure and simple. Crackhead Irvin saying it wasn't during the halftime break for that game doesn't make it so, especially considering that he made a career out of pushing off.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcTm9PPdT3I


That's a hold. Pure and simple. Lardass Madden saying at the time that it wasn't doesn't make it so. And if THAT isn't a hold, then neither was Hartwig's in SB XLIII, which cost us a safety, possession of the ball, and ultimately the lead in that game.



Game 6 of the 2002 WCF, on the other hand, WAS a ream job on the part of the refs, pure and simple. And the fact that one NBA ref spent time in a Federal pen due to the shenanigans going on in the NBA as a whole for a while there only reinforces it. Don't see the Feds arresting any NFL refs...

[tube517]

What are you talking about, impossible task. Boo-hoo, poor Roger, he has it so rough.

Listen, every other commissioner in every other major sport has dealt with a crisis as hard or harder than this - the difference is that no one else has fucked it up so badly. Baseball has steroids and competitive balance to deal with. The NBA has competitive balance plus the fact that every single one of its players smokes weed every day, including Jimmer Fredette. The NHL has money problems because it expanded too fast, plus its own concussion scare. None of those commissioners are very popular either, but at the end of the day, they deal with their problems and nobody says, "wow, that guy is really ruining the whole game."

Take Bud Selig. Bud Selig is probably as hated as a baseball commissioner has ever been, and he's been through a scandal 10 times worse than the concussion thing in football. Not "might face legal problems." Not "might have the fans calling for his head." You think Goodell has problems, baseball went ALL THE FUCKING WAY with problems. People were getting sent to jail and hauled in front of Congress. Fans of the sport had to come to grips with the fact that the whole past decade was a complete joke. But you know what? He came out of it several years later with the game still intact. He didn't change the strike zone, or move the outfield fences back 50 feet, or any other stupid knee-jerk reaction for the media. Baseball is still fundamentally the same game, no matter whether Manny Ramirez is still juicing or the Yankees still have more money than the A's.

That's the difference. Every other sport, including the NFL under other leadership, they have a crisis, they do something unpopular to deal with it, but they get it over with and eventually the game rises above it on its own merits. Goodell has dealt with the concussion issue with all the skill of a guy chasing a bus. The thing starts out with a big media splash on ESPN Concussion Sunday, and what's his response? Another big media splash, followed by another one the next week, and the next week, and the next week. Does he appoint a committee of medical experts to look into it? Does he work with the players' union? Does he increase the funding for the retired players' disability fund? Does he ask the players what they think? No - he hands out fines blindly and gives the media more to chatter about for another week, then does it again 7 days later just like clockwork. He changes the rules unilaterally and gives the media more fuel for big splashy stories. And all the while, the underlying problem is still there because his fines and rules haven't done shit, and behind the scenes where it matters, he's fighting tooth and nail against increasing the retirement fund; he's burying his head in the sand about better equipment; and who the hell knows what the medical experts think, beyond "concussions bad." So, back to the fines and the media splash every week.

Every other commissioner with two brain cells to rub together: "We'll assemble a special committee of independent experts and address it this offseason." Not Goodell - just thrash around blindly and try to fix it by berating your own players and making up new rules as you go along (the Colt McCoy rule of having an independent doctor on the sideline just the latest knee-jerk example). It's almost like the he thinks ESPN is going to solve his problems for him if he just creates enough hoopla. The guy is a fucking kid getting schooled at Street Fighter and mashing buttons hoping he hits a lucky combo. Only every move he makes destroys a REAL sport a little more.

THAT'S why he's the most hated commissioner in sports, possibly ever. And why I don't have any sympathy or even empathy for him at all. He brought it all on himself, and he richly deserves every single atom of it.

:applaudit: Preach on, Steelreserve

[steelreserve]

^^^ good post ^^^

BUT Stern has fucked up worse. Remember refs betting on games? They let things stand, when a REAL commissioner would have had the balls to just write-off the whole season. Goodell did the same thing when he burned the evidence with the Cheatriots. Wins and titles should have been stripped, but anything hard ain't worth doing to lumps of shit like Stern and Goodell...

I get your point, but IMO neither of those are things that had the potential to fundamentally affect the game. They were instances of one guy cheating, and they were handled poorly.

Basketball's bigger issue with the potential to mess up the game is the competitive-balance problem, where about a dozen star players decide everything, and if nothing changes only New York, Chicago, LA and Miami will be legitimate contenders, because they're cool places for superstars with an ego to play hoops and smoke weed together. Stern came a LOT closer to Goodell-level meddling with the way he handled the Chris Paul situation last month, by the way. But he got his hand bitten badly enough that I don't think that's something he'll be dumb enough to repeat - nor would the owners and the media be inclined to allow him to. And eventually, someone will come up with a way to solve that without, say, changing the shot clock to 15 seconds (which would be great for offense, mind you).

Meanwhile, Goodell is off on his own being Don Quixote and tearing the insides out of the game with a dumb grin on his face, like a kid searching for presents in a box full of tissue paper. Don't get me wrong, Stern is probably my second least-favorite commissioner after Goodell, but it's not even close; if Stern is a 3 or a 4 on a scale of 1 to 10, Goodell is a -100.

[86WARD]

People seem to overlook Heath Miller getting called for a similar "push off" that nullified a first down...

[SMR]

What are you talking about, impossible task. Boo-hoo, poor Roger, he has it so rough.

Listen, every other commissioner in every other major sport has dealt with a crisis as hard or harder than this - the difference is that no one else has fucked it up so badly. Baseball has steroids and competitive balance to deal with. The NBA has competitive balance plus the fact that every single one of its players smokes weed every day, including Jimmer Fredette. The NHL has money problems because it expanded too fast, plus its own concussion scare. None of those commissioners are very popular either, but at the end of the day, they deal with their problems and nobody says, "wow, that guy is really ruining the whole game."

Take Bud Selig. Bud Selig is probably as hated as a baseball commissioner has ever been, and he's been through a scandal 10 times worse than the concussion thing in football. Not "might face legal problems." Not "might have the fans calling for his head." You think Goodell has problems, baseball went ALL THE FUCKING WAY with problems. People were getting sent to jail and hauled in front of Congress. Fans of the sport had to come to grips with the fact that the whole past decade was a complete joke. But you know what? He came out of it several years later with the game still intact. He didn't change the strike zone, or move the outfield fences back 50 feet, or any other stupid knee-jerk reaction for the media. Baseball is still fundamentally the same game, no matter whether Manny Ramirez is still juicing or the Yankees still have more money than the A's.

That's the difference. Every other sport, including the NFL under other leadership, they have a crisis, they do something unpopular to deal with it, but they get it over with and eventually the game rises above it on its own merits. Goodell has dealt with the concussion issue with all the skill of a guy chasing a bus. The thing starts out with a big media splash on ESPN Concussion Sunday, and what's his response? Another big media splash, followed by another one the next week, and the next week, and the next week. Does he appoint a committee of medical experts to look into it? Does he work with the players' union? Does he increase the funding for the retired players' disability fund? Does he ask the players what they think? No - he hands out fines blindly and gives the media more to chatter about for another week, then does it again 7 days later just like clockwork. He changes the rules unilaterally and gives the media more fuel for big splashy stories. And all the while, the underlying problem is still there because his fines and rules haven't done shit, and behind the scenes where it matters, he's fighting tooth and nail against increasing the retirement fund; he's burying his head in the sand about better equipment; and who the hell knows what the medical experts think, beyond "concussions bad." So, back to the fines and the media splash every week.

Every other commissioner with two brain cells to rub together: "We'll assemble a special committee of independent experts and address it this offseason." Not Goodell - just thrash around blindly and try to fix it by berating your own players and making up new rules as you go along (the Colt McCoy rule of having an independent doctor on the sideline just the latest knee-jerk example). It's almost like the he thinks ESPN is going to solve his problems for him if he just creates enough hoopla. The guy is a fucking kid getting schooled at Street Fighter and mashing buttons hoping he hits a lucky combo. Only every move he makes destroys a REAL sport a little more.

THAT'S why he's the most hated commissioner in sports, possibly ever. And why I don't have any sympathy or even empathy for him at all. He brought it all on himself, and he richly deserves every single atom of it.


BEST.POST.OF.ENTIRE.THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chidi29]

What are you talking about, impossible task. Boo-hoo, poor Roger, he has it so rough.

Listen, every other commissioner in every other major sport has dealt with a crisis as hard or harder than this - the difference is that no one else has fucked it up so badly. Baseball has steroids and competitive balance to deal with. The NBA has competitive balance plus the fact that every single one of its players smokes weed every day, including Jimmer Fredette. The NHL has money problems because it expanded too fast, plus its own concussion scare. None of those commissioners are very popular either, but at the end of the day, they deal with their problems and nobody says, "wow, that guy is really ruining the whole game."

Take Bud Selig. Bud Selig is probably as hated as a baseball commissioner has ever been, and he's been through a scandal 10 times worse than the concussion thing in football. Not "might face legal problems." Not "might have the fans calling for his head." You think Goodell has problems, baseball went ALL THE FUCKING WAY with problems. People were getting sent to jail and hauled in front of Congress. Fans of the sport had to come to grips with the fact that the whole past decade was a complete joke. But you know what? He came out of it several years later with the game still intact. He didn't change the strike zone, or move the outfield fences back 50 feet, or any other stupid knee-jerk reaction for the media. Baseball is still fundamentally the same game, no matter whether Manny Ramirez is still juicing or the Yankees still have more money than the A's.

That's the difference. Every other sport, including the NFL under other leadership, they have a crisis, they do something unpopular to deal with it, but they get it over with and eventually the game rises above it on its own merits. Goodell has dealt with the concussion issue with all the skill of a guy chasing a bus. The thing starts out with a big media splash on ESPN Concussion Sunday, and what's his response? Another big media splash, followed by another one the next week, and the next week, and the next week. Does he appoint a committee of medical experts to look into it? Does he work with the players' union? Does he increase the funding for the retired players' disability fund? Does he ask the players what they think? No - he hands out fines blindly and gives the media more to chatter about for another week, then does it again 7 days later just like clockwork. He changes the rules unilaterally and gives the media more fuel for big splashy stories. And all the while, the underlying problem is still there because his fines and rules haven't done shit, and behind the scenes where it matters, he's fighting tooth and nail against increasing the retirement fund; he's burying his head in the sand about better equipment; and who the hell knows what the medical experts think, beyond "concussions bad." So, back to the fines and the media splash every week.

Every other commissioner with two brain cells to rub together: "We'll assemble a special committee of independent experts and address it this offseason." Not Goodell - just thrash around blindly and try to fix it by berating your own players and making up new rules as you go along (the Colt McCoy rule of having an independent doctor on the sideline just the latest knee-jerk example). It's almost like the he thinks ESPN is going to solve his problems for him if he just creates enough hoopla. The guy is a fucking kid getting schooled at Street Fighter and mashing buttons hoping he hits a lucky combo. Only every move he makes destroys a REAL sport a little more.

THAT'S why he's the most hated commissioner in sports, possibly ever. And why I don't have any sympathy or even empathy for him at all. He brought it all on himself, and he richly deserves every single atom of it.

And Selig was a crock who pretended not to see the rampant steroid issues until it blew up in his face and did a ton of damage on the game. At least Goodell is recognizing issues like concussions and attacking them head on. Not hiding until 20 years from now when players start developing severe medical conditions and he goes, "Well we knew about it but didn't want to do anything". Baseball's issue was off the field anyway which is a lot easier to fix without rule changes than something that occurs on the field.

In basketball, you have the accusations of games being fixed. Doesn't exist in the NFL. You have a commissioner who after seeing what happened to the NFL, STILL ended up with a lengthy lockout. Tagliabue had two lockouts/strikes within five years, the NHL has lost a full season, the NBA has lost parts, MLB had a World Series canceled. So far, Goodell has come through clean and there won't be talk of a lockout for at least another ten years. Had there been missed games under Goodell, he would have been killed by you guys. It happens to previous commissioners twice and it's apparently overlooked.

You said it best. "they did something unpopular"

Because that's the only option for a lot of these situations. He's not going to make anyone happy. Heck, at this point it'll be lucky if he makes ANYONE happy. How many good things have people said about Goodell this year? Very few. How many times has he ripped? I can't count that high.

Is it really because he the worst person at a job position in the history of mankind? If you really think that, I can't touch you. Can't change your mind. But it's more plausible to think that you didn't like what he's doing because you're a Steelers fan and now everytime Goodell makes a move, you use that bias against him immediately, looking for the worst in the decision.

And let's just answer a few of your questions.

Does he appoint a committee of medical experts to look into it?

Yes he does. He has a concussion board full of brilliant medical experts.

The NFL's head, neck, and spine committee was created in 2010. The committee is led by Dr. Hunt Batjer Chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery at the Northwestern University School of Medicine and Dr. Richard G. Ellenbogen, Chairman of the Department of Neurological Surgery at the University of Washington School of Medicine. It has six subcommittees which include:

Subcommittee on Safety Equipment
Evaluates performance of safety equipment for the protection of the head and neck. Led by Professor Kevin Guskiewicz, Ph.D., ACT, Chairman, Department of Exercise and Sport Science, University of North Carolina

Subcommittee on Former Players and Long-Term Effects of Brain and Spine Injury
Led by Dr. Mitchel S. Berger, Professor and Chair of Neurological Surgery at University of California San Francisco.

Subcommittee on Advocacy and Education
Develops educational material, advocates for safety issues of behalf of all youth and professional athletes. Led by Stanley A. Herring, MD, Clinical Professor, Departments of Rehabilitation Medicine, Orthopaedics and Sports Medicine, and Neurological Surgery at The University of Washington, Director of Spine, Sports and Musculoskeletal Medicine UW Medicine Health System, Co-Medical Director, Seattle Sports Concussion Program and Team Physician Seattle Seahawks and Seattle Mariners.

Among other groups, of course. So you have groups that are looking at the eqiupment, groups looking at the players out of the league, and groups that are looking at education and rules. Pretty well balanced, no? The only Dr. not on this committee is Dr. Who.

Does he increase the funding for the retired players' disability fund?

Yes.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2011/11/14/nfl-announces-pension-plan-for-retired-players/print

Every player will receive a major pension increase. We have significantly raised the pension floor of minimum monthly payments.
Players whose pensions vested before 1975 — the players who played for the lowest salaries — are getting the biggest increase.
The Legacy Fund benefits will continue not only for the lifetime of the retired player, but also for the lifetime of his eligible beneficiary.

There is a 10-year veteran player who retired in the 1960s who has been receiving a $200 monthly pension. The Legacy Fund benefit will increase his monthly check to $1,840.
Another 10-year veteran who retired in the 1970s will see his monthly check increase from $165 to $1,810.


- Roger (steelreserve's best friend) Goodell

------------

Ok, I may have tweaked one part.

--------------

Does he ask the players what they think?

Yes. He visits training camps each year and I'm sure conversation takes place. Goodell is always welcome to meeting with players to discuss their concerns. He's done so with Suh and even Harrison and Tomlin.

And though this wasn't a question, let's cover it anyway. About the fine procedure.

They are first evaluated by Merton Hanks and Ray Anderson who collaborate with Goodell on fines.

"Any play involving a violation that needs to be reviewed for possible discipline, whether flagged on the field or not, is referred to Executive Vice President of Football Operations Ray Anderson and his staff, which includes Director of Football Operations Merton Hanks, a nine-year NFL veteran (1991-99). Merton Hanks or Ray Anderson make the initial determination for discipline for on-field violations."

http://nflhealthandsafety.com/commitment/regulations/

After the fine has been sent out, the player has a right to appeal. Ted Cottrell and Art Shell make up that committee and are paid jointly by the league and players' union so they don't feel compelled to side with one group because of the paycheck. No conflict of interest. They have reduced fines and in a few rare cases, two I can think of off the top of my head, gotten rid of the fine altogether. Every player is given the right to appeal.

------------

Here's the thing that really annoys me. No one does any homework anymore. Even the players don't. Check out Polamalu's comments about how there isn't any group to appeal to he made earlier in the season. Completely wrong (and Troy seems like a smart guy).

It's just Hitler this and Hitler that. You don't think the anger is clouding judgement. We had one poster who wished that Goodell would've been burned in the fire. Burned in a fire! I mean come on, cooler heads will prevail, right?

No. Not on this board. There are no options. Once you sign up, you must hate Goodell. Screw the facts.

[Chidi29]

One other quick note before I go to bed. 3/4 of the NFL has to ratify any rule changes and modifications.

After reviewing statistics and considering suggestions from team owners and the NFLPA, the Committee presents recommendations on rules modifications or changes to the team owners. A change requires 24 of the 32 owners to vote yes.

In 2009, several key rule changes were approved by NFL team owners which eliminated many unnecessary hits on defenseless players and linemen. These changes included making it illegal for a defensive player to hit a defenseless receiver in the head or neck area with a hit using the forearm or shoulder, in addition to the current prohibition against helmet-to-helmet hits

http://nflhealthandsafety.com/commitment/regulations/

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CJ90unulWuI/TowR1r3wRkI/AAAAAAAAAY0/lF5n-y_BLYk/s1600/knowledge-is-power.jpg

[fansince'76]

I think Chris Kluwe's whiteboard summed it up more succinctly (and accurately).

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/garyb12001/kluwewhiteboard.jpg

[Craic]

And Selig was a crock who pretended not to see the ram. . . No. Not on this board. There are no options. Once you sign up, you must hate Goodell. Screw the facts.

Hmm, so what your saying is, Goodell has really taken himself out of the process. Reviews, Fines, even suspensions are handed out by those two wusses who don't know the game of football and have no idea what it's like to hit or be hit like a man - and by wusses, I mean Merton Hanks and Art Shell. Of course, Ted Cottrell was even worse, as he only played linebacker for two years in the NFL just after the merger. I guess those three have no idea what real football is.









:sarcasm:

[Chidi29]

Hmm, so what your saying is, Goodell has really taken himself out of the process. Reviews, Fines, even suspensions are handed out by those two wusses who don't know the game of football and have no idea what it's like to hit or be hit like a man - and by wusses, I mean Merton Hanks and Art Shell. Of course, Ted Cottrell was even worse, as he only played linebacker for two years in the NFL just after the merger. I guess those three have no idea what real football is.




:sarcasm:

Haha, you almost got me there Preacher. Almost missed the sarcasm alert.

Many committees that have been created by Goodell and maybe Tagliabue (not sure how old some of these are) have former players and coaches on the panel. And I think ALL of them have medical experts leading them.

[Chidi29]

Something else to consider.

Goodell does not set the fine amount. Merton Hanks and Ray Anderson does.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/01/big-fine-could-be-coming-for-stevie-johnson/

"The amount of the fine will be determined by Ray Anderson or Merton Hanks..."

I assume though Goodell has final say and agrees with any amount. But that means three different people will have agreed with the fine number before the letter is set out.

Seriously, what more do you guys want? Goodell is going to every possible person to help out with the fine system. It's not just one guy arbitraily making up numbers.

[fansince'76]

Seriously, what more do you guys want? Goodell is going to every possible person to help out with the fine system. It's not just one guy arbitraily making up numbers.

What exactly does Goodell do to justify a $10 million-per-year salary, then?

[Chidi29]

What exactly does Goodell do to justify a $10 million-per-year salary, then?

Helping to create those committees, first of all. I don't see why it's a bad thing for Goodell to have a great team around him.

And he has a role in all those committees. He's an active part of the fine/safety/rule process.

He obviously played a big role in the labor negotiations.

[Chidi29]

And I assume Goodell doesn't make his own salary. And it isn't that far off from the others (Stern makes 10 million compared to Goodell's 10.9. Bettman makes 7.5 in a less popular NHL. Bud Seling makes a whopping 18 million).

[X-Terminator]

Bud Seling makes a whopping 18 million.

That right there is a damn cruel joke. Selig isn't worth 18 cents, much less 18 million. Dude is by far the worst commissioner in sports. Depending on how the upcoming NHL labor negotiations go, Bettman is in line for a big raise just for the new TV contract alone, the largest in NHL history. That, of course, is why Goodell makes as much as he does - he makes the owners rich.

[LLT]

Something else to consider.

Goodell does not set the fine amount. Merton Hanks and Ray Anderson does.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/01/big-fine-could-be-coming-for-stevie-johnson/

"The amount of the fine will be determined by Ray Anderson or Merton Hanks..."

I assume though Goodell has final say and agrees with any amount. But that means three different people will have agreed with the fine number before the letter is set out.

Seriously, what more do you guys want? Goodell is going to every possible person to help out with the fine system. It's not just one guy arbitraily making up numbers.

Your post is misleading and actually ...just ....wrong unless you refuse to look at the big picture!!!!

Under the personal conduct policy in the collective bargaining agreement that was ratified this last year....Roger Goodell and the owners demanded that Goodell retain power to mete out discipline. He has total and ultimate control over the process ...regardless of who is on what comittee!!!!

That was EXACTLY the point of contention that Ryan Clark talked about before the CBA was ratified....saying that ...


"We feel like someone else should be on there; there should be some ... type of way -- actually someone who's not on the NFL payroll," Clark said. "A big issue, for us, especially, as a team, is Roger Goodell ... being judge, jury and appeals system."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6832575/roger-goodell-retain-conduct-policy-power-cba-sources-say

[Chidi29]

The last statement is where Clark is wrong. The appeals system is not just people on the NFL payroll. They are two players paid jointly by the NFL and the NFLPA. That was designed specifically to avoid any potential for a conflict of interest.

[LLT]

The last statement is where Clark is wrong. The appeals system is not just people on the NFL payroll. They are two players paid jointly by the NFL and the NFLPA. That was designed specifically to avoid any potential for a conflict of interest.

And you still refuse to admit what everyone else sees....Goodell still has COMPLETE control over the process....both the fines...and the appeal.

Lets say that the Mayor of your town told the local Chief of Police to write you a ticket. Now lets say that when you get to court you find out that the Mayor has told the judge that you are quilty and to give you a $500 fine. Now lets say you decide to appeal and you walk into the courtroom.....to find the Mayor behind the podium, ready to hear your "appeal".

It doesnt matter who the chief of police or judge are....The Mayor is still running and controlling the process.

[Chidi29]

And you still refuse to admit what everyone else sees....Goodell still has COMPLETE control over the process....both the fines...and the appeal.

Lets say that the Mayor of your town told the local Chief of Police to write you a ticket. Now lets say that when you get to court you find out that the Mayor has told the judge that you are quilty and to give you a $500 fine. Now lets say you decide to appeal and you walk into the courtroom.....to find the Mayor behind the podium, ready to hear your "appeal".

It doesnt matter who the chief of police or judge are....The Mayor is still running and controlling the process.

I just said a few posts ago, "I assume though Goodell has final say and agrees with any amount." I realize he is the commissioner for a reason and oversees most of the fine process.

But no, he does not have complete control over the appeals process. He has no control over it.

Again, the appeals are NOT heard by Goodell. So your analogy is incorrect. They are heard by Ted Cotrell and Art Shell. Goodell isn't involved which is why he has never changed an appeal ruling of fines being reduced (done multiple times) or gotten rid of (done three times to my knowledge).

[LLT]

I just said a few posts ago, "I assume though Goodell has final say and agrees with any amount." I realize he is the commissioner for a reason and oversees most of the fine process.

But no, he does not have complete control over the appeals process. He has no control over it.

Again, the appeals are NOT heard by Goodell. So your analogy is incorrect. They are heard by Ted Cotrell and Art Shell. Goodell isn't involved which is why he has never changed an appeal ruling of fines being reduced (done multiple times) or gotten rid of (done three times to my knowledge).

Actually my example is correct...you are confusing the hearing officers ( Cotrell and Shell) ...with the overriding authority (Goodell).


According to Article 46 section 1 (a) of the new CBA " All disputes involving a fine or suspension imposed upon a player for conduct on the playing field or involving action taken against a player by the Commisioner for conduct detriment to the integrity of the, or public confidence in, the game of professional football, will be processed exclusively as follows: the Comissioner will promptly send written notice of HIS action to the player, with a copy sent to the NFLPA. Within three business days following such notification, the player affected thereby or the union with the players approval, may appeal in writing to the Commisioner.

Article 46 section 2 (a) of the 2011 CBA. "Hearing Officers. For appeal under Section 1(a) above, the Commisioner shall, after consultation with the Executive Directctor of the NFLPA, appoint one or more desinees to serve as hearing officers. For appeals under section 1(b) above, the parties shall, on an annual basis jointly select two (2) or more designees to serve as hearing officers....notwithstanding the forgoing, the Commisioner may serve as a hearing officer in any appeal under section 1(a) at his discretion.

You read that Cotrell and Shell hear the appeal and a fine was given....but fail to see that Goodell drives the appeals process and can even step in as an appeal officer if he wants. By the CBA's own language it is VERY apparant that based on the hearing officers suggestion...it is Goodell who makes the final determination.

[Chidi29]

I'm not sure why you bolded what you did. That is before the appeal is filed and is simply letting the player know the decision the commissioner has made.

Can you show me of any examples where Goodell has been the hearing officer? To my understanding, a link to the section would be helpful for me, the only way Goodell can make a ruling on it is if he serves as the hearing officer. When has he done that?

And why has Goodell never overturned one of the reduced/abolished fines sent from Cotrell and Shell? I've never once heard of Goodell actually overriding them.

[LLT]

I'm not sure why you bolded what you did. That is before the appeal is filed and is simply letting the player know the decision the commissioner has made.

Can you show me of any examples where Goodell has been the hearing officer? To my understanding, a link to the section would be helpful for me, the only way Goodell can make a ruling on it is if he serves as the hearing officer. When has he done that?

And why has Goodell never overturned one of the reduced/abolished fines sent from Cotrell and Shell? I've never once heard of Goodell actually overriding them.

I think you are purposfully being dense. There is no way that you can read the process and not see that Goodell is the final authority and controls all the puppet strings.

A) The commisioner makes a determination.
B) The process is appealed to the hearing officer or officers (one of which CAN be the commisioner) who do generally agree with the commisioners ruling
C) The commisioner then has to look at the hearing officers ruling and decide if he agrees with them...and himself.

The commisioner doesnt have to "override" them because he is driving the bus and navigating...with two people sitting in the seats behind him...simply agreeing with the destination he suggested to begin with!!!!

The point isnt even IF he has ever been a hearing officer but rather that he has a safety valve built into the process just in case the appointed hearing officers dont "tow the line". There is no way that this type of appeal process would fly in a legitimate courtroom.

[Chidi29]

Where does it say that the commissioner looks at the ruling and sees if he agrees with it himself? All it says is that he has the authority to be a hearing officer...which he has never been. Logically, if he isn't the hearing officer and doesn't hear the appeal, he doesn't have any authority to overturn it.

The officers were sure doing Goodell's bidding when they got rid of Troy's fine. Or the other fines they got rid of. Or when they reduced Harrison's 75K fine last year.

And again, the appeals officers are not paid solely by the league so there is no chance of them facing consequences if they make a ruling that Goodell doesn't agree with. At least, not without the chance of the NFLPA taking action.

[LLT]

Where does it say that the commissioner looks at the ruling and sees if he agrees with it himself? All it says is that he has the authority to be a hearing officer...which he has never been. Logically, if he isn't the hearing officer and doesn't hear the appeal, he doesn't have any authority to overturn it.

The officers were sure doing Goodell's bidding when they got rid of Troy's fine. Or the other fines they got rid of. Or when they reduced Harrison's 75K fine last year.

And again, the appeals officers are not paid solely by the league so there is no chance of them facing consequences if they make a ruling that Goodell doesn't agree with. At least, not without the chance of the NFLPA taking action.

Who pays them is irrelevent...especially since half the money they are paid does in fact come from the NFL ...so the arguement can be made equally on both sides as to if they lean one way or the other.


The point is....There is still no way for you to arbitrarily say that the Commisioner has no influence on the end result. The very wording of the CBA was manipulated by the owners to ensure that the Commissiner had safety valves in place in both the handing out of fines (since he appoints a representitive)...and the appeals process (in which he can become one of the hearing officers) if ever the process started to lean towards the players. The very knowledge that he has that sort of power is obviously a form of intimidation towards those who have to make decisions under his "leadership"

We are also not privy to the appeals decision making process and have no idea as to how heavily involved Goodell is ...from the time of the appeal to the time of the ruling. We DO however now that if he doesnt like the process, he DOES have the authority to simply make himself a hearing officer.

[Chidi29]

But he has yet to be a hearing officer in any instance. Nor has he overturned any decision made by the appointed hearing officer, even at moments where they have disagreed with Goodell (and there's multiple instances of a player winning an appeal to some degree).

Until there is any proof that Goodell is changing, checking, or sitting in on an appeal, he is not involved. The fact that he can be an appeals officer is likely only a fail safe in case of an extreme situation (where the other two appointed officers are unable to make it to the appeal) or some crazy situation of blatant abuse by one Shell or Cotrell.

[LLT]

But he has yet to be a hearing officer in any instance. Nor has he overturned any decision made by the appointed hearing officer, even at moments where they have disagreed with Goodell (and there's multiple instances of a player winning an appeal to some degree).

.

Again...the discussions that Goodell has with the hearing officers are not publicly made known. You are speculating.



Until there is any proof that Goodell is changing, checking, or sitting in on an appeal, he is not involved.

Actually you are mistaken ...he does sit on the appeals. Common knowledge that he has been present.

The fact that he can be an appeals officer is likely only a fail safe in case of an extreme situation (where the other two appointed officers are unable to make it to the appeal) or some crazy situation of blatant abuse by one Shell or Cotrell

How did you come by that conclusion????? I see nowhere where it says that he would sit it in for a vacated seat???? Or for that matter, that it was for times of abuse!!!!! Please explain how you made that leap of logic?????!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chidi29]

Until there is any proof (you're making the claim) that he is talking to the appeals officers to nudge them, it can't be used as evidence. You have to back it up with evidence, the burden of proof falls to you.

I said it was "likely", not that it was definite. I base that off the fact that Goodell has not heard and ruled on any appeal to my knowledge so far.

When has Goodell sat on the appeal? When has he made a ruling on an appeal?

[Chidi29]

Perry, I get the argument you're making, but can you provide me any instances where Goodell has had a known effect on an appeal?

[steelreserve]

Perry, I get the argument you're making, but can you provide me any instances where Goodell has had a known effect on an appeal?

It would be pretty naive to think he didn't have an effect on the Harrison suspension this year. They were pretty much setting new league policy with that one, not to mention completely winging it on the appeal process itself (by making sure it got heard quickly enough that he would be suspended for the Niners game). If you think Goodell wasn't consulted every step of the way on that, and didn't personally sign off on every atom of every letter in the ruling and appeal, you've got to be kidding me.

Fact of the matter is, you probably will never find any "hard" evidence of his direct involvement ever - because he won't release that kind of information. Well hey, guess what, the mafia doesn't release information about their procedure for laundering money, or the names of the guys running the smuggling business either. It's not too difficult to tell when his fingerprints are all over something, though, and there are many, many cases of that.

[Chidi29]

It would be pretty naive to think he didn't have an effect on the Harrison suspension this year. They were pretty much setting new league policy with that one, not to mention completely winging it on the appeal process itself (by making sure it got heard quickly enough that he would be suspended for the Niners game). If you think Goodell wasn't consulted every step of the way on that, and didn't personally sign off on every atom of every letter in the ruling and appeal, you've got to be kidding me.

Fact of the matter is, you probably will never find any "hard" evidence of his direct involvement ever - because he won't release that kind of information. Well hey, guess what, the mafia doesn't release information about their procedure for laundering money, or the names of the guys running the smuggling business either. It's not too difficult to tell when his fingerprints are all over something, though, and there are many, many cases of that.

No, I don't think he was consulted "every step of the way". Heck, Goodell even let the former defensive player of the two, Cotrell, be the hearing officer.

Sticking with the "actual courtroom" angle talked about earlier, without any evidence (and to compare the league to the mafia is laughable), you don't have an argument.

[steelreserve]

No, I don't think he was consulted "every step of the way". Heck, Goodell even let the former defensive player of the two, Cotrell, be the hearing officer.

Sticking with the "actual courtroom" angle talked about earlier, without any evidence (and to compare the league to the mafia is laughable), you don't have an argument.

Just so you know ... if you're talking about actual "evidence," you don't have any argument either. All there is to go by is whatever information a handful of individuals associated with the league dispense, all of whom have a very vested interest in maintaining a certain appearance. You choose to believe they're fundamentally honest; I choose to believe they're willing to blur that line for their own self-interest. History and experience tend to be on my side.

[Chidi29]

Just so you know ... if you're talking about actual "evidence," you don't have any argument either. All there is to go by is whatever information a handful of individuals associated with the league dispense, all of whom have a very vested interest in maintaining a certain appearance. You choose to believe they're fundamentally honest; I choose to believe they're willing to blur that line for their own self-interest. History and experience tend to be on my side.

Again, you guys are the ones making the claim. You have the burden of proof.

I don't see any reason as to why the appeals officers would be manipulated. They are paid jointly which as I've said, is specifically done to avoid any conflic of interest. Cotrell and Shell are both very experienced people as both players and coaches who are quite competent. The claim you're making is Goodell doing something highly unethical by trying to sway one of them when he could be easily outed by one of them if he attempted to do so and face serious consequences.

Show me evidence of Goodell EVER influencing an appeal, and I'm more than willing to listen. Otheriwse, there's no reason to get back into a thread that was dead for a week.