Independence Day

[Vincent]

On this day we when celebrate our Independence, let us consider this perspective of a son and his parents who were not born free but dreamed of someday being free regardless of what it cost them. The parents stood up to the soviet monolith, survived and escaped. The son lives on to tell that story, and his uniquely qualified perspective of the left and what they intend to do to our freedom. He is driven by the memory of his Grandfather who as doctor in the soviet army was murdered by the NKVD because he wouldn’t participate in their torture (and this would be real torture).

The 4th of July has become another “retail” holiday like “Turkey Day” and “Christmas” and all the others that fuel our economy. Our celebrations of Independence have become absurd. Rather than set aside a day to ponder the sacrifices of those that risked all to gain our independence, we indulge ourselves. Our freedom was bought at enormous cost. It is maintained at enormous cost. That cost is measured in lives that were sacrificed, both soldier and civilian then, and those that are at risk today.

Invest a little time to understand what is arrayed against us and our freedom. Understand their hatred of you the individual and your freedom. Understand that those that would take your freedom hate the idea of “fun” and “happiness”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP8jNwvvLJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dg51EiQry0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uKmDNyKFjw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7q13F_enEo

Then ask yourself where you stand in the equation to maintain our freedom. Regardless of your stance, don’t take what was bought with so much precious sacrifice for granted. It isn’t.

Thank you to Dr. Glazov. Your parents did well. And thank you to those that stand on the wall. :usa2: :clap2:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1935071602/ref=pe_606_16192250_pe_ar_t3

[Killer]

I got lots of big firecrackers - I'm gonna terrorize the neighborhood

[ricardisimo]

I got lots of big firecrackers - I'm gonna terrorize the neighborhood

That's too funny... :lol:

Give me a break Vincent... nobody hates you or your freedoms. Nobody outside the US, that is. Maybe some of your neighbors, sure. That's about it.

Happy 4th all the same.

[LLT]

That's too funny... :lol:

Give me a break Vincent... nobody hates you or your freedoms. Nobody outside the US, that is. Maybe some of your neighbors, sure. That's about it.

Happy 4th all the same.

Oh...I beg to differ. I have been to over a dozen countries and spent years overseas. The reality of our world is that there is a "have/have not" mentality. The good news is that you dont really see the hatred among the educated of other countries....but as with any culture/country/race.... ignorance and hate go hand in hand.

[GitNoLuv]

That's too funny... :lol:

Give me a break Vincent... nobody hates you or your freedoms. Nobody outside the US, that is. Maybe some of your neighbors, sure. That's about it.

Happy 4th all the same.

Like LLT said...there is a LOT of hate for us and our freedoms outside the US. Maybe not in your small corner of the world...but it's a big big world out there...with a lot of different cultures, many of whom detest our lifestyle, our culture, our people and (essentially) everything about us (except for our money and our Soldiers when they have a need for help.)

For that matter, seems like there's too much of that INSIDE this country too (at times.)

Happy Independence Day all!

[Vincent]

Give me a break Vincent... nobody hates you or your freedoms.

That's a relief! I tried to contain myself but I escaped. Thanks for reigning me back in Buddy!

http://knowledge.allianz.com/nopi_downloads/images/afghanistan_burn_us_flag_z.jpg http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/antiamerican.jpghttp://images34.fotki.com/v1148/photos/1/1222605/5412260/peace_now_flamesvi-vi.jpg http://www.infidelsparadise.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/islam2.jpg http://blackchristiannews.com/news/images/afghan-effigy-obama-burn-933.jpg https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/spring98/photob.gif http://farm1.static.flickr.com/87/247934510_d1eee2a41b.jpg http://www.moonbattery.com/HUGH-OBAMA-FRIENDS.jpg

[ricardisimo]

Like LLT said...there is a LOT of hate for us and our freedoms outside the US. Maybe not in your small corner of the world...but it's a big big world out there...with a lot of different cultures, many of whom detest our lifestyle, our culture, our people and (essentially) everything about us (except for our money and our Soldiers when they have a need for help.)

For that matter, seems like there's too much of that INSIDE this country too (at times.)

Happy Independence Day all!

You can turn your statement upside-down and get something vaguely resembling the truth. There is quite a bit of discontent (to put it mildly) for our money and our soldiers... which is to say hatred of our empire. Would you expect any different from any human being anywhere? The question is whether anyone hates Vincent or his freedoms. Here Vinny is borrowing from one of W's more idiotic ideas... and given W's track record, that's saying something.

If we weren't dropping bombs on people or making them pay for their own water, and other idiotic and greedy shit like that, no one would care about us in the least.

[GitNoLuv]

You can turn your statement upside-down and get something vaguely resembling the truth. There is quite a bit of discontent (to put it mildly) for our money and our soldiers... which is to say hatred of our empire. Would you expect any different from any human being anywhere? The question is whether anyone hates Vincent or his freedoms. Here Vinny is borrowing from one of W's more idiotic ideas... and given W's track record, that's saying something.

If we weren't dropping bombs on people or making them pay for their own water, and other idiotic and greedy shit like that, no one would care about us in the least.
Whatever "reason" is used to rationalize their hatred is irrelevant...we are always sticking our noses in others people business...we are always there where the fight is thickest...where the poor are poorest (giving aid) and where the rubble is deepest.

I've heard some people talk about the stuff they hear while on tour in Haiti...about how some of the locals think this is a propaganda to expand our control there.

Our government is not a perfect government...and it is getting more and more imperfect. Oddly enough, it is becoming more and more like the rest of the world...and less and less what our founding fathers envisioned.

[Vincent]

The question is whether anyone hates Vincent or his freedoms.

No problems here. I live in my own little world where everybody knows and likes me and I have my own army and navy and everybody calls me Mr. Prime Minister.


Here Vinny is borrowing from one of W's more idiotic ideas... and given W's track record, that's saying something.

Nobody's idiotic ideas, Ric. And several here with real world experience have concurred. If you've been on the planet any time within the last 40 or so years, it should be apparent to you as well.

As for "borrowing" ideas, I may express ideas that are similar to those of others, but I neither borrow or express their ideas. I have my own ideas and my own propaganda ministry to tell me what they are. Ain't it cool?

[Godfather]

You can turn your statement upside-down and get something vaguely resembling the truth. There is quite a bit of discontent (to put it mildly) for our money and our soldiers... which is to say hatred of our empire. Would you expect any different from any human being anywhere? The question is whether anyone hates Vincent or his freedoms. Here Vinny is borrowing from one of W's more idiotic ideas... and given W's track record, that's saying something.

If we weren't dropping bombs on people or making them pay for their own water, and other idiotic and greedy shit like that, no one would care about us in the least.

Riiiiiiiiight...we bombing people in 1979 when the ayatollahs thumbed their nose at international law and took embassy workers hostage. They just wanted us to call off the dogs. Clinton and Bush were bombing Muslims all over the world. That's why AQ perpetrated the 9-11 attacks. They just wanted us to back off. And the Taliban has no objection to the freedoms of our women. OBL has no interest in restoring the caliphate. All the radical Islamists want is to be left alone.

[ricardisimo]

Riiiiiiiiight...we bombing people in 1979 when the ayatollahs thumbed their nose at international law and took embassy workers hostage. They just wanted us to call off the dogs. Clinton and Bush were bombing Muslims all over the world. That's why AQ perpetrated the 9-11 attacks. They just wanted us to back off. And the Taliban has no objection to the freedoms of our women. OBL has no interest in restoring the caliphate. All the radical Islamists want is to be left alone.

You might want to read up on Iranian history a bit. There's a reason why the Shah was in power, namely us. As for hating our women, other than Lynndie England I don't know that any American women are particularly despised in the Islamic world... Maybe Condoleeza Rice or Hilary Clinton. What does restoring the caliphate have to do with hating Vincent? Who is AQ? As far as radical Islam generally, how do you think they got radicalized?

[ricardisimo]

No problems here. I live in my own little world where everybody knows and likes me and I have my own army and navy and everybody calls me Mr. Prime Minister.



Nobody's idiotic ideas, Ric. And several here with real world experience have concurred. If you've been on the planet any time within the last 40 or so years, it should be apparent to you as well.

As for "borrowing" ideas, I may express ideas that are similar to those of others, but I neither borrow or express their ideas. I have my own ideas and my own propaganda ministry to tell me what they are. Ain't it cool?

Of course your referring to Bush, Vinny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6HOcLWP-Ls&feature=related

[ricardisimo]

I'll take this opportunity to provide another answer to the question "Why do they hate us?" This answer comes to us from the Eisenhower administration, by way of Noam Chomsky:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pfcW0_sSuw&feature=related

[ricardisimo]

That's a relief! I tried to contain myself but I escaped. Thanks for reigning me back in Buddy!

You're welcome. Regarding these photos, it struck me that only one vaguely speaks to your point (namely, that "they" hate "us" and "our freedoms"). That one is the march banner which reads "No democracy - We just want Islam!"

I can't decide which is the more pertinent point to make here:

That if the bloodthirsty governments which we have imposed at gunpoint in the region are indicative of "democracy", then they have every right to pass on it;
Or that you, Vincent, have repeatedly and approvingly asserted that the United States of America is not a democracy, but a republic, and a Christian republic, to be precise.

I don't know that it would take anyone too long to piece together several of your posts that together could be interpreted as "No democracy - We just want Christ!" That might be a fun Summer project for someone with too much time on their hands.

By the way, I say "vaguely speaks to your point" because of course democracy is not a freedom, although I would argue that it is the system of government most likely to ensure individual freedoms.

[Vincent]

Of course your referring to Bush, Vinny

No, Ric, I wasn't. First time I have seen that video or heard those words.

BTW, you introduced B-b-b-boosch to the thread for reasons that elude me.


Regarding these photos, it struck me that only one vaguely speaks to your point (namely, that "they" hate "us" and "our freedoms"). That one is the march banner which reads "No democracy - We just want Islam!"

The “point” you speak of is what you inferred from the OP. That has little or nothing to do with what I wrote or the point I was making. If you read the post or watched the videos you would realize the post has nothing to do with me. Rather, it has everything to do with appreciating the cost of our freedom, recognizing that billions would take our freedom out of their hatred for us, and illustrating those points through the account of one who struggled and reached his dream of freedom.

The pictures I posted in response to your initial reaction were to illustrate the hatred arrayed against us. “Us” in this case means America and our way of life. And burning our flag and effigies can, if you’re really looking for a message, be interpreted as hatred.


I can't decide which is the more pertinent point to make here:
That if the bloodthirsty governments which we have imposed at gunpoint in the region are indicative of "democracy", then they have every right to pass on it;

“WE have imposed”??!!

If, by the superlative “bloodthirsty governments”, you are referring to marxist regimes that have been imposed all over the third world, then yes “they” have every right to throw them off. However, the nature of such regimes prevents them from doing so. And yes, marxist regimes like to use the term “democracy” because it seeks to pacify their victims and the West likes the term despite entirely misunderstanding its meaning.


Or that you, Vincent, have repeatedly and approvingly asserted that the United States of America is not a democracy, but a republic, and a Christian republic, to be precise.

Ric, we’ve been over this. We are a republic by the design of our founders because they correctly chose that form of government over “democracy”. And while “republic” and “democracy” weren’t part of the OP, I posted this http://www.steeluniverse.net/forums/showthread.php?1113-What-the-Founders-Gave-Us&p=20902&viewfull=1#post20902 as an attendant message for Independence Day because the republican form of government is that which ensures our freedom.

In as much as I have not spoken or written the term “Christian republic” in my life, I would ask that you not misquote me. In fact, this is the first time I’ve seen the term used.


I don't know that it would take anyone too long to piece together several of your posts that together could be interpreted as "No democracy - We just want Christ!" That might be a fun Summer project for someone with too much time on their hands.

Feel free to try to make that inference. It wasn’t even vaguely implied.


By the way, I say "vaguely speaks to your point" because of course democracy is not a freedom, although I would argue that it is the system of government most likely to ensure individual freedoms.

Our republic gives you the freedom to attempt to make that argument. In fact, make any argument you’d like.

[ricardisimo]

No, Ric, I wasn't. First time I have seen that video or heard those words.

BTW, you introduced B-b-b-boosch to the thread for reasons that elude me.
For reasons that elude you? Bush your president - makes the claim that "they hate us for our freedoms", which you claim in the OP, and this connection eludes you?

The “point” you speak of is what you inferred from the OP. That has little or nothing to do with what I wrote or the point I was making. If you read the post or watched the videos you would realize the post has nothing to do with me. Rather, it has everything to do with appreciating the cost of our freedom, recognizing that billions would take our freedom out of their hatred for us, and illustrating those points through the account of one who struggled and reached his dream of freedom.
But you say quite clearly: "Understand their hatred of you the individual and your freedom. Understand that those that would take your freedom hate the idea of “fun” and “happiness”." I read that perfectly well, although for some odd reason I chose not to pick apart the even more ludicrous claim that they hate our "fun" and our "happiness". How's the weather on planet Glox, by the way?

The pictures I posted in response to your initial reaction were to illustrate the hatred arrayed against us. “Us” in this case means America and our way of life. And burning our flag and effigies can, if you’re really looking for a message, be interpreted as hatred.
Why are they not burning Swedish flags? Or Canadian flags? When you watched video footage of American workers taking turns with a sledge hammer at Japanese cars in the 80s, did those workers hate Japanese freedoms? Did they hate the "fun" and "happiness" of the Japanese?

“WE have imposed”??!!
Yes, us. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, UAE... these are governments that either we imposed with violence, or with espionage or that would have been dismantled long ago without our money and arms.

If, by the superlative “bloodthirsty governments”, you are referring to marxist regimes that have been imposed all over the third world, then yes “they” have every right to throw them off. However, the nature of such regimes prevents them from doing so. And yes, marxist regimes like to use the term “democracy” because it seeks to pacify their victims and the West likes the term despite entirely misunderstanding its meaning.
No, I'm referring to Iran under the Shah, Iraq and Afghanistan today, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia under Sukarno, as well as most of Latin America at one time or another.

[Vincent]

Honestly Ric, I don't understand how you can bear to live in such a blood stained country as ours.

[NJarhead]

Honestly Ric, I don't understand how you can bear to live in such a blood stained country as ours.

Nor do I. How ironic would it be if he were lynched by other haters of our Country?

[ricardisimo]

Honestly Ric, I don't understand how you can bear to live in such a blood stained country as ours.

I bear it just as easily as you tolerate living in a socialist dictatorship under the thumb of our Kenyan Overlord. We just keep plugging away, don't we Vinny?

[tony hipchest]

wow. just checked in from the "reading comprehension w/in context is fundamental" dept.


nobody hates you or your freedoms. Nobody outside the US, that is. Maybe some of your neighbors, sure.

obvious typo that shoulda read "nobody inside the US". i love how MB jockeys will try to nail someone to a cross over a freaking mis-type.

anyways, i know this is late... but these are pretty cool (and funny)-

http://www.handgunowner.com/blog/images/xmas.jpg

http://fuckfrance.com/images/i261/57769.394worldmap.jpg

as a bird lover and proud owner of a majestic senegal parrot named obama (:chuckle:- jk hiis name is shorty), this about gave me a woody-
http://handgunowner.com/blog/images/eagles.jpg

[Vincent]

Ric should be very pleased with the first two.

[LLT]

I don't know that any American women are particularly despised in the Islamic world... Maybe Condoleeza Rice or Hilary Clinton. What does restoring the caliphate have to do with hating Vincent? Who is AQ? As far as radical Islam generally, how do you think they got radicalized?

You tell the poster that he needs to "read up on Iranian history".....yet you make some very basic mistakes in your own post. Namely that you say that "American" women are not despised in the islamic world, but the TRUTH is that ALL women are treated as sub-human in most islamic countries.

The Prophet Muhammad (through Islam) improved the status of women in 7th century Arabia. For example...at that time it was cutomary to bury female newborns alive and it was Islam that prohibited the practice. Islamic law made the education of girls a priority and it gave women the right to inherit property from their parents. And even though Islam improved the lives of women in the 7th ventury...dont think that Islam pays NO part in the mistreatment of women. Even as Muhammad proclaimed rights for women, he set their inequality in the Koran.... passed down as "God's commandments" and eventually recorded in scripture. The Koran says that daughters get half the inheritance of sons...... It says that a woman's testimony in court is generally worth half of a man's testimony....and under Shari's (Muslim law)..... compensation for the murder of a woman is half that of the rate for men. In short...the way that Islam is practiced in many countries AND the way that muslim law is written has left women in those countries as little more than property and often beaten and battered with little recourse. Want an example? In Pakistan...for a woman to prove rape, four adult males of 'impeccable' character must witness the penetration.

I say this so that you know that I understand the role of Islam in history....But dont think that Islam pays NO part in the problem of female mistreatment.

If you have ever lived in a Muslin country for any amount of time (I have)... It is clear that the twisting of religion has been used in most Muslim countries to force inequality. The Taliban, in direct opposition to Islamic teaching forbids females to go to school. The problem is often that Muslim doctrine is often incorporated into contemporary law....and its only in counties like Turkey that women have more equality and that is because they have removed Islamic precepts in their laws in favor of secular rule.

So Yes...A great deal of the Islamic world despises American women as they despise any woman in any country who is "less" than subserviant. They consider any female who fails to follow the strictist precepts of the Koran...taught in the most legalistic and violent fashion...to be immoral and godless. They consider them to be a "symptom" of a western civilization disease.

Even when our brave women in the sevice defend their country from threat...they are looked down upon for "daring" to place themselves in a man's position...and for even wearing slacks..or having the audacity to "show their faces". (and that is in the more secular countries)

[Vincent]

...they are looked down upon for "daring" to place themselves in a man's position...and for even wearing slacks..or having the audacity to "show their faces". (and that is in the more secular countries)
So how do they feel about homosexuality? :peep:

Makes you wonder about the fascination :hail: liberals have with these primitives.

[LLT]

So how do they feel about homosexuality? :peep:

Makes you wonder about the fascination :hail: liberals have with these primitives.

Of course by primitives...you mean "victims". :thumbsup:

[ricardisimo]

Have any of you folks ever read the Old Testament? Do you realize the audacity that is required for anyone who calls the OT a holy book to criticize anyone else's holy books regarding their religion's views of women? It's off the scale. This one goes to 11.

The Christian world has no right to criticize the Quran.

[ricardisimo]

obvious typo that shoulda read "nobody inside the US". i love how MB jockeys will try to nail someone to a cross over a freaking mis-type.

I don't get it... my point is exactly what I wrote. I doubt Vinny's ever left his munitions compound, much less traveled abroad. Ergo, no one outside of the US knows him, so no one outside of the US hates him, or his freedoms, or his fun. As I said, maybe his next-door neighbors hate him for his loud, drunken anti-US tirades at 3:AM, but that's about it.

:alcohol::bananadoggywow::alcohol::alcoholic::alco hol::puke:

[Vincent]

I doubt Vinny's ever left his munitions compound, much less traveled abroad.

:rofl2::rofl2: Good stuff Ric. Believe it or not, one of my business partners has a cousin that actually has a munitions compound. I can only dream. :lol:

My first time abroad was in the early 70s to Central Europe where I was responsibly for "collecting data" from multiple countries. While there I had occasion to "visit" a great deal of Northern Europe and Scandinavia. Having 30 years in international "telecom", I accumulated millions of travel miles throughout the US, Europe and Asia. I have over 2 million with one airline alone. But no, I don't get "out" much.


Ergo, no one outside of the US knows him, so no one outside of the US hates him, or his freedoms, or his fun. As I said, maybe his next-door neighbors hate him for his loud, drunken anti-US tirades at 3:AM, but that's about it.

You sound like you're confessing.

[LLT]

Have any of you folks ever read the Old Testament? Do you realize the audacity that is required for anyone who calls the OT a holy book to criticize anyone else's holy books regarding their religion's views of women? It's off the scale. This one goes to 11.

The Christian world has no right to criticize the Quran.


Stay on topic Ric....


You said that American women were not "particularly" hated by Muslims. You were wrong.

Creating a rabbit trail through a comparison to Christianity doesnt change the facts. Totally different topic altogether and an obvious attempt to divert from your false premise.

[Vincent]

Have any of you folks ever read the Old Testament? Do you realize the audacity that is required for anyone who calls the OT a holy book to criticize anyone else's holy books regarding their religion's views of women? It's off the scale. This one goes to 11.

The Christian world has no right to criticize the Quran.

Yes Ric, I have. In fact, I'm currently reading it again. Even before this post I was struck by the deep love these men had for their women. It bordered on reverence. Personally, I find it instructive. And those women were "off the charts" in terms of their depth and strength of spirit. There was a lot there to love.

Christians are charged to love their Brides as Christ loves the Church. While it isn't framed as such, that charge is laced throughout the OT as well.

As to criticism, if I were to draw a single contrast between the two, it would be simply that Christianity descends from love, and islam from submission. In fact, that is what "islam" means. That is evident in the treatment of those that surround each.

[ricardisimo]

Yes Ric, I have. In fact, I'm currently reading it again. Even before this post I was struck by the deep love these men had for their women. It bordered on reverence. Personally, I find it instructive. And those women were "off the charts" in terms of their depth and strength of spirit. There was a lot there to love.

Christians are charged to love their Brides as Christ loves the Church. While it isn't framed as such, that charge is laced throughout the OT as well.

As to criticism, if I were to draw a single contrast between the two, it would be simply that Christianity descends from love, and islam from submission. In fact, that is what "islam" means. That is evident in the treatment of those that surround each.

Hmmm... So, if you had to venture a guess, where would you say the following citations derive? Quran, OT or NT?

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels.

Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.

At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
These sorts of passages, and numerous others, seem to me to be an odd form of "love" that Christianity holds for women.

[LLT]

Hmmm... So, if you had to venture a guess, where would you say the following citations derive? Quran, OT or NT?





These sorts of passages, and numerous others, seem to me to be an odd form of "love" that Christianity holds for women.

...and how exactly does that prove your point in regards to your premise about Muslims not hating American women?

Using quotes from the Bible hardly backs that arguement.


But...jsut so that you know. You have taken at least one of your quotes out of context. By quoting the first half of the text: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

You should take the time to read the rest of those verses to understand what Paul was saying...Ephesian 5:25 (the part that you left out) says: Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.

That verse is even harsher than the supposed "odd" form of Christian love that women are commanded to have....You see, we are to love our wives like Christ loves the Church. How did Christ love the CHurch? 100% unconditionally...100% sacrificially. Christ DIED for the Church. Therefore as Christian men..we are commanded to lay ourselves upon the "marriage alter" and say ..."everything we are....everything we have...our very lives are to be secondary to our marriage and the love to our wives." TOTAL sacrifice...TOTAL willingness to put our wants, needs, and desires secondary to that of our wives.

Now...knowing that....put what Paul is telling a couple into practical terms and understand that he is commanding BOTH members of the marriage to be humble in their approach to each other.

[ricardisimo]

But your reply is likewise out of context. Anyone who cites the Bible without quoting it in its entirety is citing it out of context, and we should probably also prep any citation with a historical background, quotes from contemporaneous works to provide contrast, etc.

It is supposedly the inspired word of God, and yet (I say "and yet", but what I should say is "and so, of course...") it's chock full of exceptionally ugly sentiments - in or out of context. There's simply no getting around the genocide, slavery and misogyny.

My only point is that you and Vinny (and innumerable others) make claims about the Islamic world, and cite the Quran to back up your claims. I can make claims about the every country in the West being horribly misogynist, and I could provide plenty of sections in the Old and New Testaments to back me up. It would be a flawed argument, clearly, but I could do it. Somehow it's not a flawed argument when we're discussing Islam. This is yet another example of the intellectual discipline in this country of which I'm always speaking.

[Vincent]

There isn’t anything that I could or should add to what LLT said.


…it's chock full of exceptionally ugly sentiments - in or out of context. There's simply no getting around the genocide, slavery and misogyny.
Much of the Bible is accounts of what happened interlaced with untold numbers of threads of continuity. Some of it is “ugly”. Our behavior is ugly. If I had to summarize the entirety of human history in a few words, it would be the story of “man’s inhumanity to man”.

Genocide? This is God’s creation. He deals with it as He chooses. Bad behavior is the consistent theme that precedes His wrath. Slavery? It was common practice until we did away with most of it 150 years ago. Much of the slave trade was and still is done by arabs. “Misogyny”? Out of context here. But very much in the context of islam.


My only point is that you and Vinny (and innumerable others) make claims about the Islamic world, and cite the Quran to back up your claims.

Claims? The headlines from around the world speak for themselves. It’s a violent world. The violence is accelerating. The overwhelming majority of the violence is the behavior of muslims as they mistreat their own and wreak havoc on the world around them. 13,000 terrorist attacks since 9/11.

Ishmael, son of Abram and Hagar, and the patriarch of the bad behavior is indeed mentioned in the OT in Genesis 16:12… “He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Israel, BTW, are his brothers. Given that, none of this current bad behavior should surprise anybody. Its their nature. But their nature is exacerbated by their religion that descends from their nature.

Its interesting that you introduce “misogyny” to the discussion. If ever there was a “misogynist” it was mo himself, he the creator of the “religion of peace” that has been enslaving, mistreating, mutilating and murdering its women since the 7th century.

“Cite the Quran“? Their book is specific about those they brand as infidels. It says that there are three kinds of people on this rock – muslims, those that will submit to islam, and those that won’t. Their book charges them with the merciless persecution of those that won’t. Ergo my comments at the beginning of the thread.

BTW, they don't take kindly to atheists. Have you picked out a rug?

[ricardisimo]

Yes, nothing but goodness and light from the Christian books. I happen to agree with you about the Quran, a point that has been lost in all of this. It's an ugly, horrid little piece of excrement, just like its predecessors.

Your self-discipline is exceptional. Go find a list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War#List_of_wars_by_death_toll) of all wars in some reference work. The vast majority of the significant ones (in terms of bodycount) involved China anywhere from 1500 to 300 years ago. Mostly they're just an exceptionally bloody country who deserve to be set aside all on their own, but partly they've been better at keeping accurate records even in the worst of times.

Then look at the remaining "significant" wars. Compare how many we (or our proxies) were involved in versus how many Saudi Arabia or Syria or Jordan or any other Islamic countries were involved in. Not surprisingly, the bloodiest "Muslim" wars were either their wars of independence against Western powers (Algeria, Eritrea, Afghanistan in the 80s, Iraq today, Afghanistan today, etc.) or they were conflicts sponsored from without - most likely by us. For example: the Iran-Iraq War or the Indonesian invasion of East Timor.

In other words, despite all of the rhetoric, and some truly filthy citations from the Quran, Islamic history is not really all that bloody, all things considered. From a strictly statistical perspective, they certainly have the edge on Christianity for claiming the mantle of "religion of peace". The assumption here is that those are the only two religions in the running. Let's completely ignore the fact that there really are "religions of peace", like the Jains, for example. They're kooks, but they do actually believe in peace, very much unlike Christians or Muslims.

All of which is going even further off topic. To get back on track: no one hates you or your freedoms or your fun, Vincent. They hate your country's military imperialism, and they hate your country's economic imperialism, just as you do. When the Feds do domestically what they regularly do abroad (Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc.) I have to assume that you see it for the bullying fascism that it is... but not when it's done abroad, curiously. When they insert themselves into the local economies and politics in North Carolina, California or elsewhere, telling people what they can buy, sell, smoke or regulate, I have to assume that you recognize the corporate fascism at work there... but not when it's foreign water being "privatized", or foreign politicians being bribed, or foreign elections being manipulated, etc., etc.

No, of course not. When it's done "over there" it's suddenly and magically patriotism. God bless America.

[Vincent]

Yes, nothing but goodness and light from the Christian books. .
Ric, I’m not selling anything here. But try reading the Bible as a narrative. It might make some sense to you. Its actually a good “read”. But be warned. If you “get into it” – WHOA!!


Then look at the remaining "significant" wars. Compare how many we (or our proxies) were involved in versus how many Saudi Arabia or Syria or Jordan or any other Islamic countries were involved in.
Two comments. First, we are a global player. We have been the defacto World Cop for the last century. That mantle gets us into all sorts of scuffs.

Second, take oil out of the equation and the Arab countries are still in the 7th century. Actually, they still are - the only difference is their boatloads of cash. And that is the only reason they are affecting global matters – they have the cash to do so.


In other words, despite all of the rhetoric, and some truly filthy citations from the Quran, Islamic history is not really all that bloody, all things considered.
The differences are several fold. We are a secular society bound to all sorts of political and economic alliances. We act globally. They are a religious society, cloistered in their traditions and religion. They think locally but because of their cash are now acting globally. Your observation is correct that their wars with the exception of their hostility against Israel** have been acts of throwing off imperialism. One must certainly understand that they view their jihad against us in the same context. We are not acting out of Christianity by any stretch of the imagination. Everything they do is governed by their religion.


From a strictly statistical perspective, they certainly have the edge on Christianity for claiming the mantle of "religion of peace".
This is why statistics need a context.


To get back on track: no one hates you or your freedoms or your fun, Vincent. They hate your country's military imperialism, and they hate your country's economic imperialism, just as you do.
We’ll probably never agree on this point. I don’t dispute the imperialism piece. Where we seem to disagree is on the hatred piece. The behaviors of the two societies cannot coexist. We are free. They are bound. They view our freedom as anathema to their religion. The sane among us view their religion as a threat to our freedom. They make it a “zero sum game”. It will come down to all the marbles.

**Isaac and Ishmael. That is the root of all this, and that is what the West misses entirely. Ask any one of “them”. It all goes back to two brothers that are separated by two mothers. Both are the patriarchs of nations that have been blessed by the same God ***. But it is the nature (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2016:12&version=NIV) of the latter that is the source of the conflicts.

If you had read your Bible Ric, you’d know these things. :behindsofa:

*** The God of Abraham, not the Moon god.

[LLT]

But your reply is likewise out of context. Anyone who cites the Bible without quoting it in its entirety is citing it out of context, and we should probably also prep any citation with a historical background, quotes from contemporaneous works to provide contrast, etc.

It is supposedly the inspired word of God, and yet (I say "and yet", but what I should say is "and so, of course...") it's chock full of exceptionally ugly sentiments - in or out of context. There's simply no getting around the genocide, slavery and misogyny.

My only point is that you and Vinny (and innumerable others) make claims about the Islamic world, and cite the Quran to back up your claims. I can make claims about the every country in the West being horribly misogynist, and I could provide plenty of sections in the Old and New Testaments to back me up. It would be a flawed argument, clearly, but I could do it. Somehow it's not a flawed argument when we're discussing Islam. This is yet another example of the intellectual discipline in this country of which I'm always speaking.

Oh boy....Okay, for the record and to keep everthing in perspective. YOU made the claim that the Muslim world does not "particularly" hate American women. You didnt say the Christian world...you didnt say the Hindu world...you said the MUSLIM WORLD. Based on YOUR statement, I corrected you and gave REAL LIFE examples based on personal experience...first hand observation...and real life knowledge of Muslim secular/religious law and tradition.

You countered with a rabbit trail about Christian beliefs which has NO relevence AT ALL as to the validity of your claim or, for that matter, to the validity of my response..... TOTALLY irrelevant.

NOW the litmus test comes down to this: I base my observation about the Muslim World on real world experience, observation, and knowledge from having lived in Muslim countries and in having relationships with Muslims from other countries while there. My experience is first hand and totally unbiased by a filtered article or news sourse.

What are you basing your claim on?